Bring back the old sub job system.

its time for a change, the formula has become old and stale, people are craving for the game to shake it up a little. Class balance tweaks aren't cutting it anymore, waiting for new dungeons to grind isn't as interesting as it once was. The game was exciting when it felt like there was new discoveries to be found, both in the world and its mechanics. The game felt more alive people were trying new things, new ideas, well the subclass system change that, maybe.. somewhat.

People were saying the exact same thing you are when we had the old job system. I don't think going backwards in class balance is going to help anything.

Hard disagree. Being forced to level a job you had no interest in, in order to play the job you are interested in, was backwards and ridiculous.

Don’t worry, they are in the habit of making the game simpler and easier. This does neither and won’t be added.

Right, lets bring in something that adds more to the meta then what we already have.

Although it did give players a little experience in other classes/jobs, even if you never played them afterwards you could at least be a bit familiar if other players in your party had those classes/jobs instead. Like I learnt the effects and potencies of a lot of actions just by playing them, back when I was a one trick DPS ha! well that's just me anyway. But I don't think the old system should come back, it just needs some serious attention moving forward.

You mean being forced to level jobs you have no interest in just to unlock necessary skills? Absolutely not. It was a pointless system as people often abandoned those jobs the moment they reached the desired skills. Unless, of course, they cared about leveling everything to 70, in which case, it's still irrelevant since they were going to level them regardless.

All that aside, how does this change anything? People bored of dungeons and the stale progression system aren't going to suddenly feel reinvigorated because "Oh boy! I get to level Black Mage to 27 again for Swiftcast!"

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Originally Posted by Rockette

Hard disagree. Being forced to level a job you had no interest in, in order to play the job you are interested in, was backwards and ridiculous.

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Not even what I said, The old job system isn't 1.0 or 2.0 it's the Dual Class system or sub job system that is seen in ff5, FFtactics.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Not even what I said, The old job system isn't 1.0 or 2.0 it's the Dual Class system or sub job system that is seen in ff5, FFtactics.

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Ahh yes, the old job system from another game in a post talking about this game. How silly of me.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Not even what I said, The old job system isn't 1.0 or 2.0 it's the Dual Class system or sub job system that is seen in ff5, FFtactics.

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Why didn't you specify that then? The only "old sob job system" FFXIV has ever had is the one everyone assumed you meant.

Regardless, sub jobs won't accomplish anything except an even greater workload. Now you have to balance several times the number of jobs because each sub alternate needs to be viable otherwise it'll be instantly deemed useless. Furthermore, sub jobs won't magically improve the stale progression system or make some like Pagos any more fun. It'll be the exact same thing but now Dragoon gets access to Trick Attack. Oh boy!

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

its time for a change, the formula has become old and stale, people are craving for the game to shake it up a little. Class balance tweaks aren't cutting it anymore, waiting for new dungeons to grind isn't as interesting as it once was. The game was exciting when it felt like there was new discoveries to be found, both in the world and its mechanics. The game felt more alive people were trying new things, new ideas, well the subclass system change that, maybe.. somewhat.

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Please, just log out. Much more simple solution.

Square Enix tried this before and wasn't received well by some people ...why bring it back? (I personally didn't like it, either)

I would rather Square Enix experiment with something new and daring rather than alternate between old mechanics that people have complained about in the past.

Not gonna lie, even if I like FF5 and the systems from FF5, they would not work in FFXIV because of the more casual player base in FFXIV. I cannot tell you how many countless times I saw a level 60 Pugilist in Heavensward. It was so bad I started creating memes in my small group of friends about it.

How does that relate to FFXIV and the dual job system? Several ways! One, imagine if you ran through content and the healer was having a really hard time with doing their job or the tank was taking way too much damage and the healer was working far too hard or yaddayaddayadda. Not only that, but imagine how hyper-elietist people would get if people weren't choosing the exact perfect combination for their class. And unlike the current system, that would be far more encouraged most likely because certain combos would be likely to increase DPS, healing, or decrease tank work immensely. At least, that's how I think it would be based off of WoW and the whole "Class" and whatever it's called, I don't play WoW but I know there's like a skill tree and there's an optimal tree and if you don't go for it you're basically considered worthless. (at least that's how I understand it from people who do play that.)

Unfortunately what you ask is way more complicated than you are taking into consideration.

What made the dual/class or direct ability assignment features interesting in the older games was the freedom players had to mess with the system.

However, the class/job system is layered with the Trinity system in this FFXIV. This already imposes heavy restrictions on each class/job, because they can't be allowed to diverge from their role so much that they can no longer fulfill their function in dungeons/trials. And if only a handful of abilities are allowed for each job to choose from, well then the system will just wind up right back where it was before, with the community only ever using a small number of optimal abilities.

The trinity simply doesn't allow for flexible class/job ability assignments.

What you're asking is for them to complete overhaul the system to something more akin to FFXI, and well... that just isn't going to happen. They'd have to have a 2nd calamity to overhaul the combat system that much. Of course, if you'd rather being playing a game with FFXI's job/class system... you can still play XI...


Personally, I'm happy with the direction their currently heading with XIV, as it seems like they're actually pursuing some kind of balance between the jobs/classes within each role. Unlocking all Role actions is a step in the right direction, as it eliminates the inane derp in roulettes where ppl don't have _____ skill equipped, that would be really helpful in the current situation, for whatever reason.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why didn't you specify that then? The only "old sob job system" FFXIV has ever had is the one everyone assumed you meant.

Regardless, sub jobs won't accomplish anything except an even greater workload. Now you have to balance several times the number of jobs because each sub alternate needs to be viable otherwise it'll be instantly deemed useless. Furthermore, sub jobs won't magically improve the stale progression system or make some like Pagos any more fun. It'll be the exact same thing but now Dragoon gets access to Trick Attack. Oh boy!

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BRD is no longer tied to DRG. They just need to level it.

Nope, i'm against this idea.

Personally i'm happy the cross class system is gone and that was something in the direction of a sub job system.
I'm not a fan of a system, you have to level additional classes/jobs just to be able to play your own job at a higher, then basic, level.

What do you hope to get out of this system?

The only real thing what will happen is, that many players suddenly feel presured to level the sub jobs to get their boni to play on a specific level for ExTrials and Raid.
Even the skills and abilities wont suddenly spread to cover up more areas or being more specific.
All i can see is something like a stat boost, depending on sub job, and a limited amount of cross skills from your sub job.

So basicly it's just like back in the times of ARR and HW, where you have to level your cross classes to get importent skills.

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Originally Posted by TaiyoShikasu

BRD is no longer tied to DRG. They just need to level it.

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If this is about piercing, it would be infinitely more simple to just give piercing to BRD (on something like SS) or remove piercing entirely. Not add in a "sub-class system". The biggest issue with the old cross-class system was that people didn't want to level other classes/jobs just to have tools needed for their main job - they didn't even want to stop and level a second class to level 15 to unlock their main job at 30. Why readd a system forcing that?

I think there should be some incentives to level up more than one class, and something like how the job systems works on some of the Final Fantasy games, where you can add abilities from other classes mixed with yours, could be fun.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why didn't you specify that then? The only "old sob job system" FFXIV has ever had is the one everyone assumed you meant.

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Except that's wrong. FFXIV never had a sub-job system. It had a cross-class system. If they sound different, it's better to assume they ARE different than to assume that the original poster doesn't know what they are talking about.

That being said, the original poster could have written it more clearly, yes.


Still, the suggestion is unrealistic. It would require completely redoing the entire game...and that's just not feasible. It's not a matter of shaking things up. It's a matter of completely ditching everything in the game sans the story and making it from scratch. Sorry, but that's just not something you do with a working, money-bringing game. Or any game for that matter.

If they will make a new MMO game...yes. I'd like a Tactics-like job system in it. In this one?! Yeah...no. This just ain't suited. And worse yet, it absolutely could not work with the FFXIV teams mentality. They would make it an unplayable abomination even if they DID try. They just absolutely suck at making anything more complicated than 2+2=4. If you need proof of that, just look at what a failure is the Arcanist/Scholar/Summoner triangle. All because they didn't have the foresight to realize that a healer out of a DPS job will be a balancing nightmare in a trinity game like this.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

its time for a change, the formula has become old and stale, people are craving for the game to shake it up a little.

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So use an even older and more stale formula?

I can't figure out why I see so many suggestions to bring this antiquated system into FFXIV. Don't we have enough issues with the current role skills?

Jobs should feel unique, otherwise why even have them at all. Systems like cross class, role skills, and sub job make them feel and play too similar to each other, and just really feels like stepping in the wrong direction and going backwards.

I am in favor of eliminating any system that gives players the illusion of choice with mandatory skills, and that also serve to strip jobs of their identity.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Except that's wrong. FFXIV never had a sub-job system. It had a cross-class system. If they sound different, it's better to assume they ARE different than to assume that the original poster doesn't know what they are talking about.

That being said, the original poster could have written it more clearly, yes.

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Not really "could have" - should have. Not all of us have played FFV or Tactics, so we don't know what sub-job system they're even referring to. Our only experience with anything like that may just be the old cross-role system. The wording of the entire OP is vague and misleading.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

its time for a change, the formula has become old and stale, people are craving for the game to shake it up a little.

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I used to think this way, until the game I liked was ripped out from under me, and then as I was just about getting used to the new approach and liking it, that game changed to something else I didn't like. Why did it happen? Because they devs became enamored with the idea of change for the sake of change to try and keep the flighty interest of modern gamers and ended up throwing out the good as often as they did the bad (they also had to devote a lot more time to developing it before each expansion, which meant much longer delays than we see here, which ain't great).

So yeah...be careful what you wish for, it could actively kill the game for you.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

its time for a change, the formula has become old and stale, people are craving for the game to shake it up a little. Class balance tweaks aren't cutting it anymore, waiting for new dungeons to grind isn't as interesting as it once was. The game was exciting when it felt like there was new discoveries to be found, both in the world and its mechanics. The game felt more alive people were trying new things, new ideas, well the subclass system change that, maybe.. somewhat.

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Before that happens they'll ruin the classes like they did in pvp.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Not really "could have" - should have.

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Sorry, but when someone talks to me about something beyond my understanding, like quantum physics, I don't assume that what he's saying is part of a simpler concept I know from the same type (physics or math in this examples case). I either ask him to elaborate or look it up.

Sub-jobs didn't exist in FFXIV. It may be a new term, yes. And it would simplify a lot if the original poster elaborated on it, yes. It would also serve their own purpose seeing as without it, many people WILL misunderstand. However, it's the posters choice to assume that an unfamiliar term is something else than what it is. A quick search on google will show you what a sub-job system is.

I'm just nitpicking here. And even that because Bourne_Endeavor writing "Why didn't you specify that then?" was pretty hostile, despite being equally 'guilty' of being 'lazy' in their post (OP not elaborating, Bourne_Endeavor assuming instead of doing research). If that was written along the lines of "I think you should specify that in the original post." or the like, I wouldn't even bother, really.

Hellluuuuuu

Ugh... If there is to be anything like the a sub-job system it would have to be with jobs that would not affect the combat classes/jobs, but instead would add cooldowns ant traits for things like hunt tracking or treasure hunting and just basic QOL stuff instead of what would basically just over encumbering players who use the crossbar set-up with excessive actions. It just be way easier and overrall just way more beneficial for players to implement the optional trait system or just the learning aspect from from FFIX but leave all of the job/class specific trait alone and as just their own thing. Way better than like having having sub-classes that are just completely useless outside of being a sub-class and being totally bummed out because it's like your favorite job, IMHO

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Ugh... If there is to be anything like the a sub-job system it would have to be with jobs that would not affect the combat classes/jobs(...)

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This game discourages the built-in macro. Like...it actually penalizes the player for using it. If it did not, any player could easily shave off several buttons off of their hotbars. Even healers which don't have combos of any sort. Targeting a player?! Heal. Targeting an enemy?! Attack. If they added utilities to macro, it could even work with AoE heals that normally don't need a target and would work even when targeting an enemy (if the player wants, of course).

That doesn't really change much on this topic though. I am still against such an overhaul in any game. It's part of design that should be made at games start and held on to.

The Logos system they are adding to the 3rd area of Eureka is as close to a subjob/class system we are probably going to get. Something like a dps being able to tank or something like that. It's probably not going to have the depth of a single player game though.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

This game discourages the built-in macro. Like...it actually penalizes the player for using it. If it did not, any player could easily shave off several buttons off of their hotbars. Even healers which don't have combos of any sort. Targeting a player?! Heal. Targeting an enemy?! Attack. If they added utilities to macro, it could even work with AoE heals that normally don't need a target and would work even when targeting an enemy (if the player wants, of course).

That doesn't really change much on this topic though. I am still against such an overhaul in any game. It's part of design that should be made at games start and held on to.

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The built in macro's are unusable for casters since the GCD can be variable but the macro doesn't deal with variable timing.

The only overhaul I really want to see is Yoshi-P actually looking at why people picked certain role actions... did they pick them because it restored their kit, or did they pick them because that was the BiS meta, or did they pick them at random? Like the previous cross class had something going for it, had they not introduced the job crystals. Wizardry Online was heading in the cross-class direction, and it's current status (shutdown) is a pretty clear indication that was not going to be a good thing. That and permadeath P2W probably what kept less-than-hardcore players from it.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Sorry, but when someone talks to me about something beyond my understanding, like quantum physics, I don't assume that what he's saying is part of a simpler concept I know from the same type (physics or math in this examples case). I either ask him to elaborate or look it up.

Sub-jobs didn't exist in FFXIV. It may be a new term, yes. And it would simplify a lot if the original poster elaborated on it, yes. It would also serve their own purpose seeing as without it, many people WILL misunderstand. However, it's the posters choice to assume that an unfamiliar term is something else than what it is. A quick search on google will show you what a sub-job system is.

I'm just nitpicking here. And even that because Bourne_Endeavor writing "Why didn't you specify that then?" was pretty hostile, despite being equally 'guilty' of being 'lazy' in their post (OP not elaborating, Bourne_Endeavor assuming instead of doing research). If that was written along the lines of "I think you should specify that in the original post." or the like, I wouldn't even bother, really.

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Except the title of the thread is "Bring back the old sub job system", insinuating the cross-class system FFXIV used to have as it's never had any other variant of a similar system. Aside from this being the FFXIV forums, and systems are called various things by various other people, correct name or not. As I said, not everyone has experience with FFV or FFTactics, so they infer the OP is talking about the cross-class system since no specification was given.

Posting such a title followed by a vague opening post that elaborates on nothing doesn't help anything. Neither does being unnecessarily nit-picky.

If you present an idea, you do so clearly. Not vaguely. You don't blame the audience for not understanding when you didn't even bother to clarify or elaborate. But that's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Except that's wrong. FFXIV never had a sub-job system. It had a cross-class system. If they sound different, it's better to assume they ARE different than to assume that the original poster doesn't know what they are talking about.

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Um, you do realize by putting it in quotations, I'm merely referencing the terminology the OP used, yes? No different than when someone calls raiders "toxic elitists," I'll relay that reference back to them despite knowing full well most raiders aren't. My subsequent response came after the OP became annoyed at another poster when her own phasing is what caused the confusion. Regardless, I do find it a bit... well, amusing you're nitpicking my post and assuming laziness yet went ahead and made assumptions yourself. You probably shouldn't have bothered, indeed.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The built in macro's are unusable for casters since the GCD can be variable but the macro doesn't deal with variable timing.

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The built-in macros are unusuable for anyone in nearly all cases because the developers don't really want them to be used. They cannot be queued, they are strictly time-based in a game with variable times as you said, they are even often unresponsive due to the ridiculous amount of system checks. Heck. Even the stupid error message that cannot be turned off as far as I know makes it worthless. If I want to put Heal and Stone under one macro to use one button for the basic actions in a combat, I'll have a big-ass, red message plastered in the middle of my screen for no reason whatsoever. That completely defeats the purpose of a macro.

And I said as much. If the macro was made properly, it would become useful and would save space. As it is, it's just dead for most uses. The only uses I found that work for me are to drop ground-targeted AoE's quickly, to control the summon and to make a message while using some of the situational skills, like Limit Break or Resurrection.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you present an idea, you do so clearly. Not vaguely. You don't blame the audience for not understanding when you didn't even bother to clarify or elaborate. But that's just my opinion.

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I agree with this. However, this is besides the point actually. If you'll read my post you'll notice that I said as much and that the only reason I wrote what I wrote is because of how Bourne_Endeavor responded to her making clarification in another post.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except the title of the thread is "Bring back the old sub job system", insinuating the cross-class system FFXIV used to have as it's never had any other variant of a similar system. Aside from this being the FFXIV forums, and systems are called various things by various other people, correct name or not. As I said, not everyone has experience with FFV or FFTactics, so they infer the OP is talking about the cross-class system since no specification was given.

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And as I said. You don't need to know about old final fantasy titles to realize that the term is unfamiliar to you. If it is unfamiliar with you, it's entirely possible to say things like "Do you mean the cross-class system? If yes..." or "What do you mean by the sub-class system?". Even if you'll assume and just start talking about the cross-class system, that doesn't mean that when the original poster finally decides to clarify you have to go hostile.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Um, you do realize by putting it in quotations, I'm merely referencing the terminology the OP used, yes?

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And?! It's irrelevant. Not only is it wrong, because the terminology the OP used is not incorrect (ironically, if you assume cross-class system being a form of sub-class system...you would still be wrong in assuming it seeing as it is the NEW version...role skills are not in any way, shape or form a sub-class system), but also because that's not the part of your post I had a problem with.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

My subsequent response came after the OP became annoyed at another poster when her own phasing is what caused the confusion.

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As far as I can see, the original poster simply clarified what she meant after seeing the person misunderstanding her original post. Not everyone that corrects others is automatically annoyed by that.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, I do find it a bit... well, amusing you're nitpicking my post and assuming laziness yet went ahead and made assumptions yourself. You probably shouldn't have bothered, indeed.

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There was one "assumption" I made. That you were "hostile" in your response with the first phrase. However, the assumption there comes from me not knowing your intentions, as the wording itself is rather hostile. Not offensive, mind you. But hostile. It's the same wording one would use to scold another for doing something wrong.

I enjoyed the way it was. It gave you a great incentive to try other classes, often surprising yourself with the interest of playing something you werent going to play.
For alts though it should remain as is.