thanks. ergerwgg
can you pls stop asking SE to do content easier?
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08-13-2018, 05:07 AMKeichocan you pls stop asking SE to do content easier?
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08-13-2018, 05:25 AMRangar
Most of what I read isn't asking stuff be made easier. Most are asking for more engaging content that isn't just some revised fluff of grinds we've been doing 2.0
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08-13-2018, 05:34 AMPyro2hell3
there is difference between asking for something to be easier and just asking for something to not suck most of the time people are only asking for the latter and really the people complaining about complainers make more noise the both the groups combined
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08-13-2018, 06:01 AMFawkes
No, never.
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08-13-2018, 07:37 AMHyperia
I don't think people are asking for easier but rather, less punishing for mistakes. While some may think that is making things easier, it really isn't. There has to be better punishments for making mistakes than instant death.
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08-13-2018, 07:47 AMSouljacker
This thread is pointless and it's distracting from the very real issues with Pagos. Please actually read the threads before reacting with such nonsense. Thanks.
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08-13-2018, 08:23 AMSunAurel
The difference isn't between 'Easy' and 'Hard'. It's between 'can afford to play XIV all day' and 'has to work'
Pagos is easy. Mob grinding in the same group for hours is easy. It's so easy that you fall asleep. The problem is it's way too time consuming for a casual player for a weapon that's not even that good + is just there for glamour + will be WORTHLESS in 4 weeks.
The only challenge is that it's hard to not fall asleep while doing this BS.
All the hardcore players already have the Diamond Weapons and everyone alse at least the upgraded tomestone weapons. For me - who has O8S down - Pagos is just about Glamour. ALL the relics are secretly about Glamour and we can't even be sure it pays off at the end bc as of right now I find the Paladin weapons atrocious and I might put in a shit ton of hours into something that's not even worth it. I wish we were able to see the FINAL stage of the relic somewhere in game to decide if we even want to particpate in that grind without fearing that we might fall behind a few steps.
I work full time and I have a life outside of FF XIV. The reason this game is great for Casuals/people that work is because of the weekly caps, they make sure you don't fall behind. This however? It's awful, unengaging, antisocial because holy shit at least in Anemos you could have your fun in the fate train because people were chatting and socializing but you can't do that in Pagos because the NM'S pop so rarely you can't really make a train, you have to keep your rotation up, and you have to keep your chain bonus the entire time or else you'll never get any progress.
There is no social aspect to Pagos like there was in Anemos when everyone could hop on the FATE train. There is just no fun.
This is a game it's supposed to be fun -
08-13-2018, 08:34 AMLambdafish
People aren't asking for easier content, they are asking for rewards for free, the entitlement is even worse.
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08-13-2018, 08:43 AMValkyrie_Lenneth
I think this is in regards to the threads on Rathalos, where someone is asking for no more fights like it (because its too hard), not related to pagos.
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08-13-2018, 10:32 AMJohnSeal
The content difficulty is fine as it is. I personally find really disappointing that fore many things you need hours hours and hour endless grinding doing the same thing xD many things that are basically only for glamour and not related to progression of course lol
Example as Eureka ( I mean grinding for 6 hours in the same area and not getting any result?! Takes an infinitive amount of time to level up and to get the token) or Relic/ Anima lux ( I regretted that I started it lol) or potd ( they were suppose to call it “Noob land” ) were you do the same repetitive thing over and over to get exp each floor.
Kind of concept like that should be revisited (: -
08-13-2018, 10:43 AMSouljackerIn that case, I invite the OP to read those threads as well, because the number one complaint I have seen is that yet again, like Titan before him, the real boss is Lag, not Rath.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
And I'm inclined to agree that this game has a very serious problem with design when so many people have so many problems with lag kills. I've never seen anything like it in any other mmo. The repeated complaints of issues with lag causing deaths in battle are unique to this game, and not asking for "content to be easier" or "entitlement".
The design of some bosses makes no sense given that SE can't manage to keep their servers balanced. -
08-13-2018, 10:45 AMValkyrie_LennethIts not the servers, for the umpteenth time. Its peoples routes to the servers, which are controlled by their ISP's, and who they peer with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Souljacker
If it was the servers, EVERYONE would have issues...
I've raided with an Aussie who lags less than some people on Comcast do. -
08-13-2018, 12:33 PMhynaku
There should be both easy and hard content added. Not only hard content. Not everyone that plays can handle hard content only. Some suffer from extreme lag and maybe some is handicapped that plays to. Content needs to be fair to all those that play. Only thing about content I want is it fun and not boring.
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08-13-2018, 12:51 PMXiXiQQuote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
Expecting a game to be fun is being entitled? No-one is getting anything for "free", we are all paying SE every month. (and yes, shock horror, the reason people pay them is so they can have some FUN)
Some people need to get a job. Then they can understand the difference between work and play. Hint - this game is not work, and is not free. -
08-13-2018, 01:02 PMSigma-AstraThat's a really terrible argument to use to be honest since fun is such a subjective term. What one person finds fun, the other may not.Quote:
Originally Posted by XiXiQ
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08-13-2018, 01:08 PMGranyalaRathalos isn't hard. He is incompatible with established game mechanics and simply unfun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
That's why I don't want to see more fights like that.
If I want MH gameplay, I would play MH, not some half assed clone pushed into a game with mechanics that don't work well with the playstyle.
I have a ping of 37ms. Same as in WoW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
it's SE's netcode and overzealous server verification, not the servers, not my Internet connection. -
08-13-2018, 01:11 PMSigma-AstraBut, the MH gameplay is the point of the MHW crossover. That's like having a crossover with Yokai Watch and then saying don't put Yokai in at all because it doesn't fit with the lore. The whole point of a crossover event IS to have the crossover on the other platform. I don't understand why people thought it would just be Rathalos, but with the same XIV mechanics where we dodge orange AoE circles for the thousandth time. I would have been upset if they just copied and pasted Tioman's mechanics and stuck it on Rathalos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
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08-13-2018, 01:16 PMGranyalaYes and as I said in the other thread: It's okay to have a one-off. I don't have a problem with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra
I merely spoke out against having more content that is this way and throws out the trinity of specs in favor of chicken-run style content. -
08-13-2018, 01:20 PMSigma-AstraWell, is losing a part of the trinity aspect really such a bad idea to test around with every once in a while? I mean, we find new ways as players to do things without certain jobs. For example, shortly after Tsuki's release...people were already running her with either sacrificing the other tank for another DPS spot, or only have a solo healer. I mean, we already find little ways to break certain trinity aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
I remember running Ala Mihgo with friends as 3 DPS and a healer. The DRG and I (BLM) did most of the tanking while the SCH healed and the MCH did MCH things. -
08-13-2018, 01:29 PMRufalusYou cannot force other people to change their opinion but you're free to submit your own different opinion and we can discuss from there. Everyone's feedback is valid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keicho
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08-13-2018, 01:32 PMGranyala
To be blunt: As a healer I don't give a damn about content that I can't play as a healer.
No, going in and playing a 3 button WHM-DPS is neither the answer nor fun.
There is a reason why I play White Mage and not Black Mage, I am sure you can understand that I don't necessarily find content fun that excludes my chosen playstyle, even if this MMO is far more forgiving in that regard because one character can be all classes. -
08-13-2018, 01:36 PMRufalusOh I love those kind of battles and wanted more ever since Giruveganaus (SV hard dungeon). Trinity style has been an interesting experience but personally I wouldn't want the next FF mmo to have roles like that. I think job design can be a lot more wild and unique when they do not have to fit into role requirements, and queue times mostly eliminated when there's not a certain role in need to fill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
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08-13-2018, 01:42 PMSigma-AstraBut, I never said that future 4-man trial content needed to exclude healers, you're kind of jumping the gun here and saying things I never even said that needed to happen. I just said that the idea of not strictly following the trinity could be interesting, not that we need to simplify your role even further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
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08-13-2018, 09:10 PMLubu_MykonoDon't want the trinity? Isn't that what this upcoming Eureka patch is supposed to be about, the 4,45 one? If it is I imagine it's just a potion for self heals as DPS or 50% damage reduction and increased emnity generation or something like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra
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08-13-2018, 09:26 PMGranyalaIf you abandon the trinity, that is exactly what happens to Healers and tanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra
You cannot have it both ways.
You may like such messy gameplay, I do not. Guild Wars 2 clearly demonstrated that to me that whole game tried to do MMO style combat w/o the trinity and it ended up in an ability spam zergfest.
I don't expect a DPS player to understand this, to you there is only "added challenge" no matter what SE does. To a healer, either you let me heal and throw tons of damage out and couple that with razor thin windows of opportunity (hello Archangel) in order to challenge me or ... well 3 buttons to DPS. There is no "or". You'd have to rework the healing classes pretty hard in order to make any "or" viable. -
08-13-2018, 09:49 PMRanetsu-Akagane
Sorry, but no, please nerf Sastasha please and thanks!
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08-13-2018, 10:41 PMDeceptus
I have about an hour or two max to play per day.
I'd like to have a good time instead of bashing my head against a wall with no result other than a massive hemorrhage. -
08-13-2018, 11:18 PMSouljackerAnd for the umpteenth time, other games all over the world don't have nearly the level of complaints about 'lag' as this game does, even games that boast ten times the subscribers. SE's system isn't designed to handle the load. It wasn't in XI, and it isn't here, either. Why do you think they can't seem to get everyone housing? That nonsense is stressing the servers and frankly I'm surprised they have doubled down on that system instead of moving to something that is less troublesome to maintain, but SE seems determined to destroy their own game from within so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
Have at it, I guess.
There's always other games to play and it's pretty clear SE doesn't care about this one anymore. -
08-14-2018, 12:21 AMSigma-AstraSaying that other games all over the world don't have this problem when they possibly and very well could, you may just not hear about it at all, and then not even providing sources to back up your claim is an incredibly poor argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Souljacker
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08-14-2018, 12:36 AMSigma-AstraYou're making large and outrageous claims, generalized assumptions about what I like or may not like, and then attacking the job that I play despite the fact that I have a lvl 70 whm as well and play healer on occasions. Can you actually make a decent argument without resorting to ad hominem left and right, please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
Saying "I don't expect a DPS player to understand this" just throws all of your credibility within the debate out of the window because of blatant fear mongering as if the changes wouldn't do drastic things towards DPS as well, especially the melee jobs. A full reworking for all of the jobs would need to be done in order to make anything viable, not just healers and tanks. Since, they would just pick the best four DPS for the content and then just exclude all of the rest. Tanks and healers are already DPS jobs with just another title attached towards them.
If you think healers would suffer the most, you're being woefully naive. Every job would be changed according towards the combat style if they tried breaking the trinity and using it for different trials or stand alone content like Rath EX. I didn't ask for the entirety of the game to break the mold, just maybe try doing it for other things to see how it would work. You're assuming that, all of sudden, that I want to see the entire game drop it when I never said as such.
Using Guild Wars 2 as some kind of rebuttal doesn't make for a good argument as that's a case where they outright failed the idea and then didn't care enough to fix the balancing issues and the nightmares that came with it. They literally thought that they did a good job, which isn't the case.
There's nothing entirely wrong with breaking out of your comfort zone sometimes, seeing if it works, testing the end results with the idea, and then learning from that experience that it may or may not work. The whole point of trying new things is to see if it works, then great...if it doesn't, then don't do it again. They could definitely improve upon the kind of roles that they gave the healers in Rath EX and I'm not going to doom and gloom already that it's a lost cause. Instead of simply just being Esuna bots at that point, make it so a healer can give someone an additional potion command from their own stash if they end up not using all 3 during the fight or when a healer can and does heal someone, give them an "Energized" buff that gives a 10% damage increase or something. I'm not a fan of healers being excluded from that fight either, but little snippets like that can be tested out, and there's such a broad range of how things could be handled to make all of the roles viable and interesting outside of the usual trinity. Content excluding the trinity should always be optional so that no one is actually forced or pressured to think outside of the box when walking into that particular piece of content. -
08-14-2018, 01:10 AMGranyala
What do you want? My impression was you wanted encounters that negate the trinity within the constraints of Final Fantasy XIV's established systems. Yes, that would leave DPS' jobs mostly intact.
Would a chicken-run encounter suck more for a hard casting Black mage than a Summoner who can rely on DoTs? Absolutely.
Would the tryhard community shun suboptimal DPS, no matter how the encounter is tuned? Eeeh they already do, nothing new here.
However, and this is where the "I do not expect DPS players to understand" comes from: you would still get to play your role. Hitting stuff on the head to make it go "ouch".
If you abandon the trinity for any encounter, that is ALL that remains. W/o healing and tanking, what is there to do but kite and DPS?
I have a problem with that kind of gameplay, because I like the segregation of roles.
I like being the ones that heals people. I played the "hit stuff till it dies" role for 10 years in another MMO. Was fun but now I want sth else.
PS: I know that healers and tanks already have an absurd fixation on DPS in this game, esp in raiding. While I like to throw a stone or two when no healing is needed, I do NOT want any sort of shift towards more of that (seriously, a 3 button DPS "rotation" bores me to tears and the mashing of the stone button hurts my hands).
Honestly: esp in easier content, there is already too little to heal but SE is apparently too chicken to address that, lest all the baddies start whining. >.< -
08-14-2018, 01:26 AMSigma-Astra....I told you my theory and what I wanted in the last commentary. Though, how would you define mostly intact? Because several abilities would have to be reworked fully or they'd be outright useless in non-trinity style combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
This feel mostly like goading to me, not to mention, people don't just shun certain DPS, but tanks and healer combinations as well. Though, not so much with the healers anymore and the Dark Knight flack is starting to lessen over time. You'll get the few rare apples that hate Dark Knights in endgame still.Quote:
Would a chicken-run encounter suck more for a hard casting Black mage than a Summoner who can rely on DoTs? Absolutely.
Would the tryhard community shun suboptimal DPS, no matter how the encounter is tuned? Eeeh they already do, nothing new here.
....Yea, this is starting to sound like a debate where you mostly just want to be told that you're absolutely right and nothing else, instead of bouncing off of ideas. So, I'm just going to kind of stop this here because I see us getting no where if that's your sole reasoning to say that silly line. I could just as easily say something like "I don't expect healers to understand me", but I won't because it's the most absurd reasoning to use in order to say something along the lines of "My opinion is more validated than yours. So, deal with it".Quote:
However, and this is where the "I do not expect DPS players to understand" comes from: you would still get to play your role. Hitting stuff on the head to make it go "ouch".
This was the only one thing that you have merit in and I can agree with, but everything else.....ehhhhh. Yea, just going to stop here because I don't think we can come to terms honestly. So, agree to disagree.Quote:
If you abandon the trinity for any encounter, that is ALL that remains. W/o healing and tanking, what is there to do but kite and DPS?
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08-14-2018, 01:36 AMColino
It's more that Pagos is completely at odds with itself.
Looking at what the content is for, it's a replacement of the relic weapon quests which were a means for casual players to have a way to regularly spend x amount of time (daily or weekly) and eventually obtain a weapon that wasn't in line with raid level gear, but almost.
Now looking at Pagos. There is no way of spending a healthy, casual amount of time in there and obtain anything meaningful. Even if you spent an hour a day in there (which I would argue doesn't make you a casual player anymore) you'd really struggle to have any reward from it for a number of weeks. -
08-14-2018, 02:10 AMGranyalaCare to elaborate and post a few specifics?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra
Any spell that does damage to the target still does the same damage whether the mob needs to be kited or tanked.
Damage mitigation skills are also valid because it may allow the soaking of some hits/mechanics, leading to less movement and better DPS.
Sure, you'd probably need to do something about the very long cast times if there are no tanks and players aren't supposed to take hits for extended periods, leading to a combat style that has to be much more mobile and on the fly.
But the core of the class could remain largely "as is".
Lets keep to the Black Mage please, because I do not know other DPS classes all that well (although melee positional attacks would probably not work on a mob that randomly twists and turns as it picks targets).
What you would need to do is ADD some survival/selfheal abilities to all classes in order to be able to compensate for at least a few mistakes.
To be perfectly frank: I get your curiosity but I don't think that you thought this through enough to have a meaningful conversation about the actual specifics of how such a game would look like. Not that it would matter, we aren't gameDEVs after all. -
08-14-2018, 04:13 AMMaero
Well every new piece of content (in these cases, The Extreme fights) there are always people who voice that it should be easier and some make multiple threads of it. So I do see what OP is saying.
Those people are partially to blame for some of the nerfs or direction SE goes -
08-14-2018, 04:43 AMGranyalaI doubt that very much. Ultimately any game DEV looks at actual participation numbers. Forum feedback is usually not all that helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maero
If they see a sharp drop off or an inordinate amount of failed runs after prolonged exposure to the content, that's when they start getting suspicious. -
08-14-2018, 04:54 AMFawkesLike Pagos, for example. It's clear they didn't listen to any actual feedback, and instead they likely saw that a lot of people did Anemos and got multiple weapons, so they looked at that data and said "people like this kind of grind because they did it" and "we can make it harder because people got through it somewhat quickly".Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
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08-14-2018, 05:06 AMKisaiTenshiMMORPG's have tried many things, and they have gotten simpler, and the more simple they have become, the larger their playerbase and more profitable it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
Like I kid you not, the entire point of "mobile" games are so that you spend less than a minute on a level, and thus most are designed as puzzles (eg Angry Birds) or pull pages from old-school BBS Door games where you only had 5 minutes to play per day (such as farmville clones.) As MMORPG's edge closer to mobile games, the skill gap widens.
Early MMO's like Ultima Online, had plenty of things to keep you busy, and you were punished heavily for being lazy. You could steal from and loot other players (because you could do that in all Ultima games, and stealing was a core "fun" thing), thus players formed guilds to watch each others back and take down notorious monsters (which was a side effect of the game's AI and leveling, in which monsters also leveled up when they defeated players.)
MMORPG's seem to the only game where innovations are thrown away in order to make the game less challenging and easier to develop. Yet somehow still manage to underestimate creativity of players. FFXIV has thrown away more than it's fair share.
In a better designed MMORPG, every "real world" concept would apply to content design.
So in the real world, nobody sits around being a damage sponge. So the idea of a "tank" player doesn't come from a military role, but from the "defense" role in sports. The role of the defense is to prevent the opposing team's attackers (for this case DPS), from being able to score a goal. American Football, Soccer, Basketball, Volleyball, etc all have the offense/defense idea built into them. There is no support role in sports. Unless you count the coach and cheerleaders as players.
In a military role, the support roles are armed, but they are only armed to defend themselves, they do not engage the enemy by themselves, they are not on the frontline, that's the role of other people. If you're a doctor, and you are injured or die, you've also killed everyone else. Your role as support is to remain out of sight, and try and save people, not draw attention to yourself.
That is the problem in all competitive online games. Nobody wants to play support, and those who are forced to, play it poorly, so games keep nerfing the importance of the support role until the support role is just a weak attacker role with a mostly unused support kit, and nobody picks them, because that means their scores will be low.
Because it's a game, players do not think about support roles, their real life is never in immediate danger. They see they have a gun in their kit, and mistakenly believe are supposed to use it as much as possible. Yet they see a bandaid in their kit and know they don't need to use it because they're not bleeding yet. Players are thinking in terms of scoring points, not surviving. -
08-14-2018, 05:08 AMColinoThey have tons and tons of data which is far more reliable than forum threads and subjective opinions. Any nerfs/changes are done based on that primarily and MAYBE community feedback afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maero
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08-14-2018, 05:16 AMHamadaNo the biggest issue is with the netcode, don't you find it funny people do not have issues like this with other games? Some people may just say server lag or server end is the issue since it is simply easier to say and get the point across. The point is, it is SE's end be it the servers themselves or the netcode, but the net feel is playing a game from the 1980s with gerbils running on wheels to power it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth