Overpower

does anyone else think it sucks how overpower requires a targeted enemy to use it? and drk/pld dont have to target anything for flash/unleash.

Given that Overpower is a directional AoE (unlike PLD and DRK's), it seems like it would be difficult to use reliably when you're running around trying to pick up adds.

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

Given that Overpower is a directional AoE (unlike PLD and DRK's), it seems like it would be difficult to use reliably when you're running around trying to pick up adds.

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true, i guess i personally dislike how its directional unlike the others. i still love warrior though

Dark's don't use unleash once Abyssal Drain is learned.

Warriors can generate a large amount of global threat through Thrill of Battle and Equillibrium.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Dark's don't use unleash once Abyssal Drain is learned.

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Okay, I've seen this before, but since the game doesn't explicit numerize Enmity gain for various skills, does Unleash generate less Threat than Abyssal Drain?
Also Unleash has better ease of use. Abyssal requires a target, while Unleash just requires said targets to be in range. If it is that Abyssal Drain turns out to be better than Unleash, then Dark Knight needs a new spell to make up for not needing unleash on my front crossbars. I suppose there is the rare occasion you get pulled into a low level dungeon, below the level of Abyssal Drain, but even then you can stop and change something in I guess.I'm think Dark Knight needs a new low level spell that stays relevant at higher levels.

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

Given that Overpower is a directional AoE (unlike PLD and DRK's), it seems like it would be difficult to use reliably when you're running around trying to pick up adds.

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Having a target or not doesnt change its reliably (And if anything, Id imagine the opposite, running through mobs, hitting overpower, and a mob kept moving past u, or changed its position enough the cones direction gets altered, as mobs like to push eachother around)

All SE has to do, is make it a ground targeting AoE in front of you, like Salted Earth, except you dont get the extra step to chose where you place it, just where you were lasting facing.
This sounds MASSIVELY easier to use, than needing a target, and with the delay of when mobs are within range of overpower, and then the delay of it noticing it, mobs are already on top of you, despite having a longer reach than the other tank AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

I suppose there is the rare occasion you get pulled into a low level dungeon, below the level of Abyssal Drain, but even then you can stop and change something in I guess.I'm think Dark Knight needs a new low level spell that stays relevant at higher levels.

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To be "optimal" you'd ideally avoid unleash, but some scenarios require you to get aggro the moment adds spawn in savage. and depending on the fight, abyssal drain wont reach all adds, since its a smaller circle. Once all adds are rounded up, then abyssal is able to reach all adds.
(Again, dependent on the fight)

In some cases, there can be so many adds, that they push eachother away from you, so far, than unleash almost doesnt reach them all, and unleash "can" out DPS abyssal then, but ONLY then. (Its not in savage content yet, so this scenario has only really occurred in aquapolis/lost cannals)

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Okay, I've seen this before, but since the game doesn't explicit numerize Enmity gain for various skills, does Unleash generate less Threat than Abyssal Drain?
Also Unleash has better ease of use. Abyssal requires a target, while Unleash just requires said targets to be in range.

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Unleash generates a lot more aggro than Abyssal, but shouldn't be used for dps purposes in any circumstance. Only use Unleash to grab groups of adds, or increase your aggro meter when you really need to in trash pulls. Abyssal should be used as a dps gain in mobs of 4+.

When your fighting mobs of 6+ you can Dark Arts+Abyssal Drain to get Hp back to ease the stress on Healers when doing large pulls. Just make sure to back this up with Quietus and Blood price for constant mp regeneration to fuel the Dark Art+Abyssal Drains. If you're out of MP total, Do your Syphon Strike combo for 2400mp back. Also using The Blackest Night fuels more Quietus and mitigation.

Correction: I realized I was wrong on 2 points.

(1) Ground targeters would randomly fail, if a tree was in the spot in which the game would attempt to place it down. (or any other small obstacle)

(2) The game already makes Overpower based on the direction you face. But if you have face target set on, you always face the target, forcing all overpowers to face the target, since u always face it. But Overpower IS tied to the direction YOU face, so its possible to remove the target requirement as is.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Okay, I've seen this before, but since the game doesn't explicit numerize Enmity gain for various skills, does Unleash generate less Threat than Abyssal Drain?
Also Unleash has better ease of use. Abyssal requires a target, while Unleash just requires said targets to be in range. If it is that Abyssal Drain turns out to be better than Unleash, then Dark Knight needs a new spell to make up for not needing unleash on my front crossbars. I suppose there is the rare occasion you get pulled into a low level dungeon, below the level of Abyssal Drain, but even then you can stop and change something in I guess.I'm think Dark Knight needs a new low level spell that stays relevant at higher levels.

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Unleash is 50 at like a 13x modifier or something.

Abyssal Drain is 120 at x5 or so.

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Originally Posted by Reinfeld

Given that Overpower is a directional AoE (unlike PLD and DRK's), it seems like it would be difficult to use reliably when you're running around trying to pick up adds.

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While Overpower may be a little harder to initially get a hang of, it is really not all that hard to use after a little bit of practice.

Overpower also has it's advantages compared to Unleash and Flash. For starters it does way more damage than either of the others. It also has a greater reach (8y vs. 5y) which allows you to tag the group from the edge of them instead of having to be right in the middle of them. This is really useful when doing a mass pull because you can tag groups as you run past while staying off to the side instead of running straight through the middle of them which can help keep some distance between you and the trailing mob pack and therefore lessen the amount of auto attacks you take during the pull. It also provides greater range on the mob pack when you are tanking them since you try to keep all the mobs grouped on one side of you between you and the rest of your group, so if it is a really big group that is not tightly packed you are more likely to hit all of them.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Also Unleash has better ease of use. Abyssal requires a target, while Unleash just requires said targets to be in range.

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While Abyssal requires a target, it also can be cast at range which is incredibly useful and valuable since you can tag groups from a distance such as when you run past in a mass pull without getting too close or if a group spawns during a fight and you want to tag them all without moving.

So which one is more "user friendly" is debatable since one requires no target but requires you to be in the middle of the enemies which may require you having to move to them, while the other requires a target but allows you the flexibility of hitting them from range.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

...abyssal drain wont reach all adds, since its a smaller circle ...

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Abyssal Drain is not smaller than Unleash, they both have an area of effect of 5y.

The only instance in which Abyssal may not hit all targets while Unleash would is if the mobs spawn in directly surrounding the player. In such an instance, the target requirement would offset the area of effect of Abyssal to the side the target is on and potentially miss some mobs on the opposite side from the target.
In my experience this can pretty easily be compensated for by proper repositioning and targeting.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Okay, I've seen this before, but since the game doesn't explicit numerize Enmity gain for various skills, does Unleash generate less Threat than Abyssal Drain?

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Originally Posted by Rubytoe

Unleash generates a lot more aggro than Abyssal, but shouldn't be used for dps purposes in any circumstance. Only use Unleash to grab groups of adds, or increase your aggro meter when you really need to in trash pulls. Abyssal should be used as a dps gain in mobs of 4+.

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From what I have seen, Unleash does just under twice the agro per use compared to Abyssal Drain for a smidge less MP, while Abyssal Drain does a bit over twice the damage of Unleased for a smidge more MP.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/wiki/enmity

Basically Unleash is way more MP to agro efficient while Abyssal Drain is way more MP to damage efficient.

As maintaining agro is widely considered fairly easy and damage is seen as more valuable, Abyssal Drain is seen as the superior of the two abilities.

In most cases Abyssal will be your "go to" AoE agro ability, however in instances where a high level of snap AoE agro is needed Unleash may serve better depending on other factors such as where and how the mobs spawn.

I still wish Warrior had some sort of Flash variant. One of the very first 70 dungeons was built in such a way to ensure that you see the limitations of Overpower.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Abyssal Drain has only straight damage-to-enmity (1x modifier).

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Wrong.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Wrong.

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T h a n k y o u.

All those wrong enmity values made me uncomfortable.

Steel Cyclone is a circular PBAoE enmity tool.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Abyssal Drain is not smaller than Unleash, they both have an area of effect of 5y.

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Good catch. Id have to agree then, it must have been just poor positioning when we noticed the difference.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

I still wish Warrior had some sort of Flash variant. One of the very first 70 dungeons was built in such a way to ensure that you see the limitations of Overpower.

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Try to save Steel Cyclones for those pulls. THe real issue is how long u have to wait for them, when u have no tools at lower MRD levels to maintain your TP. a new GLD can spam flash, and a new DRK can spam unleash, which helps a ton as a newer player undergeared against geared players (and more so SAM/RDM at low levels)

But WAR was meant to use zerk before each overpower, with its lowered CD, but then they upped it CD again, and now MRD has a bit of an issue with threat and TP compared to the other 2. (Of course what i consider a problem, and what others consider "good enough" is different, as many people who claim to be fine and hold perfect hate as is, usually only hold 80-90% of the hate, rather than a full 100%, and its arguably ok, since low levels dont hurt DPS much. But this gets new tanks to think not holding hate better at HL is fine.)

Can try with Marauder to keep a distance ahead of the rest of your team so have a little extra time to 'face-pull through' the mob pack. They'll collapse into a tight group quickly and then start Overpower.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Abyssal Drain is not smaller than Unleash, they both have an area of effect of 5y.

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5y starting from the edge of target enemy's hitbox or 5y from it's center? There are occasional times where I get a stupid AD whiff and the anger starts.

So I pull with drk not too differently than i do war just to keep that in check. Could start with an Unleash but if WAR doesn't need, then DRK shouldn't either I guess

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

Can try with Marauder to keep a distance ahead of the rest of your team so have a little extra time to 'face-pull through' the mob pack. They'll collapse into a tight group quickly and then start Overpower.

5y starting from the edge of target enemy's hitbox or 5y from it's center? There are occasional times where I get a stupid AD whiff and the anger starts.

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Actually I just realized why I thought the radius was smaller, and why my friends parser was showing different numbers.

lets give an example of a simple 3 mob pull.
each mob can be 6y away from eachother, preventing AD from hitting more than 1 target, if u target a mob with it. but if u stand in the middle of all 3, unleash will reach all 3.

This is why i just always assumed the circle was smaller, mixed with the slightly smaller looking animation.
never actually thought to double check up on that.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

5y starting from the edge of target enemy's hitbox or 5y from it's center?

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5y starting from the center of the target and needing to reach at least the edge of the other mob's hitbox to register that mob getting hit, not edge of hitbox to edge of hitbox.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

lets give an example of a simple 3 mob pull.

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Precisely. If two mobs are 6y apart, targeting one with Abyssal would obviously not hit the other but running into the middle of them and using Unleash would, not because it is bigger but because you have changed the emanation point and so the distance is no longer the 6y between the mobs but instead the ~3y between you and the targets, allowing Unleash to hit them both.

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Overall look at it like this, if you were standing exactly where your target is standing and you used Unleash, would it hit the other mob/mobs?
If yes, then Abyssal would also hit them.

While potentially confusing if you are not the best at spacial parsing and correlation, the fact that it works like this is also one of it's greatest strengths.
Take for example the most common usage of the ability, using it on a large group of mobs to do damage and keep agro.
Since the emanation point is based on the target and is independent of your location, you can target a mob that is roughly in the center of the pack and spam Abyssal while keeping the entire pack to one side of you and never having to step into the pack to make sure you hit them all which makes it easier, at least imo, to keep the pack grouped and organized as you want them.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Unleash is 50 at like a 13x modifier or something.

Abyssal Drain is 120 at x5 or so.

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Unleash has a 20.6x modifier, so it's 50 x 20.6 = 1030 enmity. Abyssal Drain is 120 x 5 = 600 enmity.

so Unleash for more enmity, Abyssal Drain for more damage.

Great idea, should not be a target cast, it can get quite annoying at times angling it.

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Originally Posted by Tint

Unleash has a 20.6x modifier, so it's 50 x 20.6 = 1030 enmity. Abyssal Drain is 120 x 5 = 600 enmity.

so Unleash for more enmity, Abyssal Drain for more damage.

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So Abyssal Drain.

We used to have flash cross class to fill that role. Its gone. It just takes some getting used to, but it really isnt a problem one you get the hang of it. Find mob in the center>Spam GCD>Profit. Which is basically the same deal with AD. Target mob in the middle>Spam for more damage than a pld could ever dream. Just add a bonus of steel cyclone/Decimate.

If multiple adds pop (say doom train) I just use 1 cyclone in the middle to gather them, then take a few steps to the side while gcd ticks down, then OP spam for days. In dungeons, Approach pack>target middle mob>charge through the middle of the pack and they gather up in a group right behind you as you keep running. You now have a clump gathering behind you and the middle targeted. Hit OP just as you pass through them. Repeat until you have everything. If you missed one, target it as you run and tomahawk (or voke>Toma if necessary) it between packs. Pop CDs, get up eye, OP+Unchained or inner release SS/Decimate. GGEZ dungeon.

[QUOTE=Claire_Pendragon;4732465]Having a target or not doesnt change its reliably (And if anything, Id imagine the opposite, running through mobs, hitting overpower, and a mob kept moving past u, or changed its position enough the cones direction gets altered, as mobs like to push eachother around)

Removing the target necessity might make certain control schemes a bit wonky with large packs of mobs. If you're running circles around groups of mobs to keep them clumped and avoid excess damage i could easily see people whiffing overpowers into dead space. And missing an overpower is a lot more punishing than a flash.

war has a different mechanic than other tanks BALANCE CANT HAPPEN. Remove it or the game will break. players cant have one part of a tool kit that is different for agro gain

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Originally Posted by Ordoric

war has a different mechanic than other tanks BALANCE CANT HAPPEN. Remove it or the game will break. players cant have one part of a tool kit that is different for agro gain

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Not sure what youre getting at and if you are being sarcastic or serious. Are you saying the game cant be balanced as long as War doesnt have a flash/unleash point blank circle aggro skill?

Flash does 0 damage, you want that too?

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Flash does 0 damage, you want that too?

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use to have it
and it was handy For not breaking combo

It sucks but youll get used to it

Most pugs are smart enough to not attack till you do so you can let the mobs clump behind you and overpower them to usually grab everything