stop stripping tanks skills and abilities and adding them as role actions

Can we please have War and Drk original stuns back, all tanks had a way of stunning a target, now if the War or Dark wants to stun you have to go to cross role to pick it up. SE really needs to stop taking away skills all jobs have with unique animations and placing it on a role. “Shirk” and “Ultimatum” are good added abilities, I can understand “Provoke” “Awareness” “Convalescence” shared with all tanks. But “Reprisal” needs to be given back to Drk with all its 3.0 HW glory, Drk “Low Blow” needs its 3.0 HW and War “Brutal Swing” needs to come back. “Rampart” was a nice added skill since Drk was gutted and not think of for low level content. TBN is level 70 skill and it sucks running low level dungeons when you need a CD, “Dark Dance” should be added back with its “Dark Arts” buff similar to the new “Dark Mind”. Can we have an ability to have both tanks tethered and have a percentage of both tanks defenses for an incoming attack or maybe have this ability add both tank tenacity stat together for the tank who cast the ability. We have the skills to increase our defense, but no abilities to increase our offense. SE said tenacity is needed to increase damage output and mitigate incoming damage, but I never see tanks with tenacity only CRIT, Direct Hit. I roll with tenacity and I don’t feel the security or power it promises, it confuses me, why not buff it since everything end game is a DPS race. SE gave us something new and people say its garbage, don’t meld it and focus on what counts damage, this drove me away from raiding. I was active in 2.0 and 3.0 raiding but it brings the ugly out of people I can handle criticism not someone calling me out of my name. now I just run everything but Savage, and it quite boring that every tank I loved plays similar to each other to exclude PLD. 3.0 DRK was fun managing MP, stun locking adds because of “Low Blow” procs, dodging and missing incoming attacks from enhanced “Dark Passenger” with enhanced “Dark Dace”. 3.0 War self-healing was BANANAS, we have so much HP, But we heal for a portion, that doesn’t make no sense I have 82K HP and I can only “Inner Beast” heal for 5-6k or 8K-10K if “Inner Release” is active wasting this ability to pull off five “Inner Beast” in which no time is added to the 7sec just a reset of the 7 sec. might as well have 1 secs added for a maximum of 12 sec. I don’t give me this over power crap I run all Tenacity and I don’t push out numbers like people who go for offense, also in old 4.0 EX Primal fights their TB still hit me like I had minimal ilvl with high tenacity, I’m ilvl 367 with high tenacity.

Didn't read the entire wall of text, but you're like over half an expansion late on this.

well i hope it dosen't repeat for 5.0

You'd be disappointed then.

"Give us back those things we used only for damage instead of this thing we can dedicate entirely to stunning."

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

You'd be disappointed then.

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you hurt my soul, but your right i will, ohhh well....... i will still play, i will get over the butthurt.

I am perfectly happy with the current reprisal being flexible (no parry needed; no problem on pure magic bosses) as well as being available to all tanks.

Anticipation / Dark Dance for all I care can go back to DRK, but instead of DA evasion Id prefer a baseline increase of the parry rate buff to 40-60% even if it means having to up it to 80-90s recast. WAR has Raw Int, PLD has passive blocks and bulwark (which could use a slight lowering by 30-60s to increase PLDs edge against fluff damage slightly). Only DRK would like it back anyways.

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

I don’t give me this over power crap I run all Tenacity and I don’t push out numbers like people who go for offense, also in old 4.0 EX Primal fights their TB still hit me like I had minimal ilvl with high tenacity, I’m ilvl 367 with high tenacity.

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Sorry if a bit out of topic about Tenacity, but if you still get hurt so much by Susano's tankbuster at ilvl 367, you're just not pressing your buttons in time. Even at ilvl 310, a Stormsplitter wasn't killing anoyone using a cooldown (Shadow Wall, Vengence, Sentinel...).

Also the difference in damage between Crit and Tenacity is kinda small, you can perform high levels of damage with full Tenacity melds. But the mitigation due to Tenacity is small as well (something like 5-8% more mitigation ?)

It's all going to be moot in a few weeks anyway when all jobs can equip every role action available to them, so if anything a Tank's toolkit for handling mobs and bosses just got easier.

Also in regards to stun, literally quite a few jobs can do this so if it's not available for the tank for whatever reason, another role is bound to have it in some form.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

Sorry if a bit out of topic about Tenacity, but if you still get hurt so much by Susano's tankbuster at ilvl 367, you're just not pressing your buttons in time. Even at ilvl 310, a Stormsplitter wasn't killing anoyone using a cooldown (Shadow Wall, Vengence, Sentinel...).

Also the difference in damage between Crit and Tenacity is kinda small, you can perform high levels of damage with full Tenacity melds. But the mitigation due to Tenacity is small as well (something like 5-8% more mitigation ?)

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I'm talking about no cool down, it shouldn't still hit you as hard when your defense is 2k points above from the original gear and with tenacity higher from 4.1, 82k HP and Susano tank buster still hits me for 75% of a WAR HP, our defense is well over the beginning of 4.0. i use my CD's, but i wanted to see since my defense is over 5k from the 3k we started with in the beginning of 4.0 and it felt like the tenacity stat was worthless along with the defense stat. A CD helps alot, but when your rocking a higher ilvl, with high defense and tenacity then the base stat's should show it without a CD from older content.

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

I'm talking about no cool down, it shouldn't still hit you as hard when your defense is 2k points above from the original gear and with tenacity higher from 4.1, 82k HP and Susano tank buster still hits me for 75% of a WAR HP, our defense is well over the beginning of 4.0. i use my CD's, but i wanted to see since my defense is over 5k from the 3k we started with in the beginning of 4.0 and it felt like the tenacity stat was worthless along with the defense stat. A CD helps alot, but when your rocking a higher ilvl, with high defense and tenacity then the base stat's should show it without a CD from older content.

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I'll have to confirm that, but I don't think you have 3k defense at ilvl 310. Also, it's not that outdated content, and you litterally have no reason to not use a cooldown on tankbusters at lvl 70. You have more defensive, just use it instead of being lazy. Passively mitigating damage isn't a really fun gameplay imo.

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

[...]82k HP and Susano tank buster still hits me for 75% of a WAR HP[...]

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Either Megguido is right, and your timing on cooldowns was off, or you suffered an additional auto attack right after TB hit you.

I am pretty sure, you wouldn't even lose 50% with iLvl 340 and Vengence+RI. Parties cleared that fight with old Alex/Shire Slaying accessories and iLvl 310 body gear, and they still survived TB even without Invul. They were ~40k HP or below, especially those with no VIT melds.

You just can't lose 75% of 82k HP on iLvl 367 with a CD (Rampart or Vengence/Shadow Wall/Sentinel), and no auto attack after. Get your Co-tank to voke earlier (pref. during TB cast).

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Either Megguido is right, and your timing on cooldowns was off, or you suffered an additional auto attack right after TB hit you.

I am pretty sure, you wouldn't even lose 50% with iLvl 340 and Vengence+RI. Parties cleared that fight with old Alex/Shire Slaying accessories and iLvl 310 body gear, and they still survived TB even without Invul. They were ~40k HP or below, especially those with no VIT melds.

You just can't lose 75% of 82k HP on iLvl 367 with a CD (Rampart or Vengence/Shadow Wall/Sentinel), and no auto attack after. Get your Co-tank to voke earlier (pref. during TB cast).

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That or he's tanking with the slashing debuff that follows the previous tankbuster (well, on susano specifically).

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Either Megguido is right, and your timing on cooldowns was off, or you suffered an additional auto attack right after TB hit you.

I am pretty sure, you wouldn't even lose 50% with iLvl 340 and Vengence+RI. Parties cleared that fight with old Alex/Shire Slaying accessories and iLvl 310 body gear, and they still survived TB even without Invul. They were ~40k HP or below, especially those with no VIT melds.

You just can't lose 75% of 82k HP on iLvl 367 with a CD (Rampart or Vengence/Shadow Wall/Sentinel), and no auto attack after. Get your Co-tank to voke earlier (pref. during TB cast).

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It's almost definitely an auto-attack. I figured out back in old A4S how physical/element resist debuffs work: they reduce the amount of defence that they respect. So after Susano's tankbuster, you're taking damage as if you've got zero armour on you at all.

In 5.0 Dark Mind will be a role action skill.

I just miss all the good old animation that we've lost with SB.
Scourge, Delirium, for exemple.
And I don't understand the point to delete the old DRK and the old WAR base skill for defence for using Rempart instead. The animation is really bad and fit for PLD, and it's an obligatory Cross Skill.
During the last part of HW, I was wondering if I will main tank for SB, but when I see what SE done to them, I've quickly changed my mind.
Now, tank is not a good horse to bet on.

I will forever be pissed drk lost shadowskin for rampart and is now stuck with its lameass animation, all they had to do was make foresight the same 20% as them.
and leech level 32 instead of esuna on all healers.
Rampart, anticipation, low blow, reprisal were just excuses to guts drk because se hates drk.

With their introduced changes in 4.4 SE might consider bringing back old animations in the next expansion.

I just hope we wouldn't see any must-have abilities, but alternative ones in 5.0. Maybe even passive ones.
Something that will give us variety, not one-sidedness.
Originally, that was their intention with role skills.

OP, you missed the boat. They already announced opening the slots from 5 to 10 so you can equip every single cross skill at the same time in a few weeks. War will have their stun full time. Drk gets reprisal back full time. Everyone has everything all the time in a few weeks. This is quite the opposite of 'stripping' actions. More people than ever can use them soon.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

With their introduced changes in 4.4 SE might consider bringing back old animations in the next expansion.

I just hope we wouldn't see any must-have abilities, but alternative ones in 5.0. Maybe even passive ones.
Something that will give us variety, not one-sidedness.
Originally, that was their intention with role skills.

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I always wonder how can they have thought just one moment that Rempart, Provoke and Shirk could be unnecessary. They are just must have, it's not even a question. Almost the same for Reprisal (which is very powerful).

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Originally Posted by Aana

OP, you missed the boat. They already announced opening the slots from 5 to 10 so you can equip every single cross skill at the same time in a few weeks. War will have their stun full time. Drk gets reprisal back full time. Everyone has everything all the time in a few weeks. This is quite the opposite of 'stripping' actions. More people than ever can use them soon.

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the only reason their doing the 10 slots, because they know they mess things up, their was no reason to take away the tanks stuns Pld Rampart or anything that define the tanks identity, we want uniqueness, they also did it with the healers remove a detrimental spell and certain abilities all healers had to do thier job, they simply removed them because they didn't have any ideas to add to the role actions with the exception of "Rescue" "Shirk" "Ultimatum" "True North" "Diversion""Arm's Length" and a few others. Keep it 100, let the community know, hey guys we have a small team working on certain things with limited time and we would like to have some ideas on some role actions, you think might fit in FFXIV. Five new and five old for Tank, Healer and Dps, not just take away what they already had and lock it behind 5 slots, they do contest to for gear design, might as well do it for ideas, no one wants to see the game do bad we all love this game, lets come together and grow like a family.

Not sure where you actually going with this though, I mean all roles are capable of doing their job at the moment, and each one is still very much unique. Something like Rampart or tank stun didn't give them special identities, (Rampart was on the cross class system Pre-SB anyway) it's their own toolkit that makes them stand out and each player knows that when they pick a particular role to do content with. Granted the current role system needs some adjustments, but it's not game breaking or preventing any content from being cleared.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

I always wonder how can they have thought just one moment that Rempart, Provoke and Shirk could be unnecessary. They are just must have, it's not even a question. Almost the same for Reprisal (which is very powerful).

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Running 4-man dungeons makes Shirk more than unnecessary, it makes it a detrimental troll move.

Provoke is completely resisted by all things outside of instanced content, they don't register it at all.

Rampart I'll give you.

Well, I get that Rampart didn't need to be a role skill. Pre-SB every tank got a defensive skill that gave 20% mitigation (after acquireing trait) except for WAR, Foresight simply increased (physical) defense, but that could have just been changed.

Provoke on the other hand was a cross class skill, and you needed GLD on Lv 22* for it. And it was mandatory!
Now, most new tanks in HW were DRK and they probably didn't (/barely) even touched GLD, image the chaos in their first trail ex duty: "You need to provoke!" "What's provoke?"
Also, I get that oGCD stun and silence are role skills. Not having access to silence was bad for WAR and DRK, and SE removed the damage from thier stuns (Brutal Swing/original Low Blow).

Convalescence and Awareness also were GLD/PLD original skills, but available for every tank via cross class. Only loss for PLD here: no 30% healing increase they had through their trait.

Anticipation, yeah, I hate that they took Dark Dance from DRK and gave it to every tank without any compensation for DRK. WAR has Raw Intuition, PLD Bulwark, there was no need.

Ultimatum and Shirk are really nice additions and they fit in role skills pretty well. Reprisal is also better designed than previous versions. Perma-damage-down-debuff on bosses was lame. (Still miss the procs for DRK)

So, abilities you should have access to all the time: Rampart (Shadowskin/Foresight), Convalescence, Awareness, Provoke

Abilities you can chose from role skills: stun, silence, Ultimatum, Shirk

Not sure about Reprisal and Anticipation (or any other skill, and give Dark Dance back to DRK).

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Provoke on the other hand was a cross class skill, and you needed GLD on Lv 34 for it.

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No, that was Awareness. Provoke was 20-something (I think 23).

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You are right, I searched for it in the web archives and it was on Lv 22. And yes, Awareness was on Lv 34.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Provoke on the other hand was a cross class skill, and you needed GLD on Lv 34 for it. And it was mandatory!.

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No, that was Awareness. Provoke was 20-something (I think 23).

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

Perma-damage-down-debuff on bosses was lame.

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i liked the ability to keep the boss debuffed. it felt much more rewarding for me to keep the debuffs running to weaken the boss than just doing damage - i am not playing a dps job after all.

however, it was not balanced among the tanks so something had to be done. but i am sad that they simply removed the debuff-combos and nerfed reprisal (even if it doesn't need a parry-procc anymore).

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Originally Posted by Tint

i liked the ability to keep the boss debuffed. it felt much more rewarding for me to keep the debuffs running to weaken the boss than just doing damage - i am not playing a dps job after all.

however, it was not balanced among the tanks so something had to be done. but i am sad that they simply removed the debuff-combos and nerfed reprisal (even if it doesn't need a parry-procc anymore).

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Guess I am more the "active" type. I think debuffing is fine as long as you don't debuff 24/7. And well, that led to this awkward tank diversity, you had a WAR in every set-up, cause that's exactly what they did. (And they brought high DPS ofc!) Meanwhile the other two tanks either debuffed strength (PLD) or intelligence (DRK), DRK was better because they could also debuff 2/3 of the time (20 sec duration on 30 sec CD reprisal). (I also miss Delirium-Combo :( )

I still wish SE would buff Reprisal to at least 10 sec. Right now you can't even mitigate 2 cast in succession. That's either because the casts are 3-5 sec long (e.g. O8s Ultima AoE) or the 2nd cast follows up 2-3 seconds after the first one (e.g. Garuda Friction in UwU). Same with Dismantle (MCH).

I still wonder why they removed shadow skin, that was such a good animation that they spent time and effort making to remove it for the terrible rampart animation.

The other skills from Dark Knights I do miss, but shadow skins animation is the main one for me

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Running 4-man dungeons makes Shirk more than unnecessary, it makes it a detrimental troll move.

Provoke is completely resisted by all things outside of instanced content, they don't register it at all.

Rampart I'll give you.

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Yeah but... 4-man dj and solo are not really the interrest of the game.
Solo is useless at a point of the game, there is no strat or else. You could say the PotD has a really solo challenge, yes, but this only one thing. And in dj, you need only Rampart and - why not - the HP's recovering up and Awareness. All other things are just useless. Btw, dj is a low level game content, I'm not sure they are doing anything for this type of content (they even removed one every two updates for Ultimate).
If we have to speak for content that "matters", by that I mean Trials, 8-man Raid like Savage, you don't really have the choice in your moveset.
Btw, I think Shirk was a bad idea, just because it makes the tanking role very too easy, there is a point when you don't even really look at your aggro, and this a funny thing for a tank.

Yea...can we give provoke only to paladin? Because that was its original gladiator skill please? I mean, we have ultimatum now, other two can just use it for swapping aggro.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Yea...can we give provoke only to paladin? Because that was its original gladiator skill please? I mean, we have ultimatum now, other two can just use it for swapping aggro.

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Except Ultimatum has a bigger cd than Provoke.
They just have to do things like : bring back all the classical 20% cds def for all tanks, and Provoke, Shirk, Reprisal, Stun, Conva, Awareness and anti-crit are for everyone.
The Cross-Skill idea has never been good, even during HW, all dps get too much ogcd to use for their burst, this was almost comic. There is no point to for all dps to no get a self healing, a PT regeneration or an enmity dump.

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Originally Posted by aqskerorokero

Yea...can we give provoke only to paladin? Because that was its original gladiator skill please? I mean, we have ultimatum now, other two can just use it for swapping aggro.

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i am fine with getting my own provoke skill for DRK.

on the other hand, yeah, ultimatum is maybe enough despite the longer cooldown - it's the PLD who dies because i can't grab aggro, not me >.>

The issue was they combined skills that were innate with skills that were "optional". Like with the healers, they all had an Esuna like skill, so it was always there. Because, they merged them, now we have to slot it, which we didn't have to do before, same with Lucid Dreaming. That right there removes two "mandatory" slots. Something like Provoke or Swiftcast could still remain optional, but the stuff they combined, should be given and not take up a slot.

This is correct.

The main problem with the role action system is that it doesn't adhere to a clear design objective. Is the goal to avoid duplicating essential role abilities, like Rampart and Provoke? Or is it to allow fight-specific customisation, by letting you choose to slot in Low Blow or Interject?

The problem with any system with optional 'builds' is that there will generally be a best choice. You see this in games with talent tree systems. That being said, there need not be a "best" solution for every scenario. Do you need a Silence or Stun? Do you need a PBAoE enmity grab, or one that acts at a distance? If you really want to build up a system that allows for customisation, you need one which makes you choose between related abilities. You shouldn't be choosing between Rampart and an interrupt. Rampart will win out every time. You should be choosing between two types of situational interrupts. This is one place where branching talent trees excel.

Another problem that arises in designing a customisable role-action system is that some jobs have similar abilities built into their baseline toolkit. PLD never really needs to take Low Blow because they always have access to an on-demand stun in Shield Bash. Likewise, most tanks will slot Reprisal for raid content, but PLD and WAR also have baseline access to abilities Veil, Passage, and Shake which can be used for additional raid mitigation. If the point of Reprisal is to give every tank equal access to raid-wide mitigation, then Veil and Shake shouldn't be job exclusive. They should be role actions as well.

The final problem is that the transition from the old cross-class system was poorly executed. At the end of it all, some jobs, like WHM and DRK, were left with fewer job actions than others. Given that the cross-role actions are no longer attached to any job, these jobs will permanently be left at a deficit in future expansions unless they are appropriately compensated. The implementation left many players with the feeling that their job's unique abilities were 'stolen' to be redistributed to other jobs.

I think if the goal is just to standardise a set of abilities across a given role, then the easiest solution is to just remove the element of choice and give everyone a fixed set of common abilities. But I would be partial to a talent-tree based system that allowed you to apply traits to a standardised set of abilities. Let players choose between a short recast AoE Provoke and a long recast ranged one. Pick the interrupt of your choice, silence or stun. Choose a damage down debuff on a shorter recast or a group shield on a longer recast. Perhaps pick between a recast reduction on your gap closer or a Tempered Will styled knockback negation move. Break Rampart down into a choice of a physical defensive and a magical defensive.

Alternatively, allow for cosmetic variations in abilities based on job, such as the old Shadowskin animation. Sort of like the Major/Minor Inscription system.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Alternatively, allow for cosmetic variations in abilities based on job, such as the old Shadowskin animation. Sort of like the Major/Minor Inscription system.

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https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20180320203959

Acceptable parameters.

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

In 5.0 Dark Mind will be a role action skill.

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You shut your blasphemous mouth, sir!
Jk, but in all seriousness, that would suck and I would be majorly butthurt over that D:

I am just glad they are giving all of them to us to use in 4.4

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Originally Posted by kobe-sabi

Can we please have War and Drk original stuns back, all tanks had a way of stunning a target, now if the War or Dark wants to stun you have to go to cross role to pick it up. SE really needs to stop taking away skills all jobs have with unique animations and placing it on a role. “Shirk” and “Ultimatum” are good added abilities, I can understand “Provoke” “Awareness” “Convalescence” shared with all tanks. But “Reprisal” needs to be given back to Drk with all its 3.0 HW glory, Drk “Low Blow” needs its 3.0 HW and War “Brutal Swing” needs to come back. “Rampart” was a nice added skill since Drk was gutted and not think of for low level content. TBN is level 70 skill and it sucks running low level dungeons when you need a CD, “Dark Dance” should be added back with its “Dark Arts” buff similar to the new “Dark Mind”. Can we have an ability to have both tanks tethered and have a percentage of both tanks defenses for an incoming attack or maybe have this ability add both tank tenacity stat together for the tank who cast the ability. We have the skills to increase our defense, but no abilities to increase our offense. SE said tenacity is needed to increase damage output and mitigate incoming damage, but I never see tanks with tenacity only CRIT, Direct Hit. I roll with tenacity and I don’t feel the security or power it promises, it confuses me, why not buff it since everything end game is a DPS race. SE gave us something new and people say its garbage, don’t meld it and focus on what counts damage, this drove me away from raiding. I was active in 2.0 and 3.0 raiding but it brings the ugly out of people I can handle criticism not someone calling me out of my name. now I just run everything but Savage, and it quite boring that every tank I loved plays similar to each other to exclude PLD. 3.0 DRK was fun managing MP, stun locking adds because of “Low Blow” procs, dodging and missing incoming attacks from enhanced “Dark Passenger” with enhanced “Dark Dace”. 3.0 War self-healing was BANANAS, we have so much HP, But we heal for a portion, that doesn’t make no sense I have 82K HP and I can only “Inner Beast” heal for 5-6k or 8K-10K if “Inner Release” is active wasting this ability to pull off five “Inner Beast” in which no time is added to the 7sec just a reset of the 7 sec. might as well have 1 secs added for a maximum of 12 sec. I don’t give me this over power crap I run all Tenacity and I don’t push out numbers like people who go for offense, also in old 4.0 EX Primal fights their TB still hit me like I had minimal ilvl with high tenacity, I’m ilvl 367 with high tenacity.

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To show you the incompetence of the dev team, I sawed DRK in half! It takes a LOTTA DAMAGE!

The thing that I truly don't understand - especially with regards to support skills that had a specific function but dealt damage in tandem - is that if the problem, in the dev team's eyes, was the fact these skills were being used for a DPS increase versus the stun/silence utility, why did that necessitate removing them entirely as innate actions and putting them into role skills?

Would it not have made more sense to simply alter existing abilities to suit that need? For example, WAR and DRK could've kept Brutal Swing and Low Blow, but both abilities could've been changed to A). remove the damage potency and B). inflict a combined stun/silence effect. This same change could've been made to PLD's Shield Bash; in fact, Shield Bash could've been made an oGCD and the reset timer on all three abilities standardized to 15s. That solves the issue of having to give up a role slot to something that a lot of content in game assumes is innately available to the tank jobs, while retaining flavor animations without sacrificing standardized utility.

I guess in there head, it was good.

I remember a guy on Discord said that the devs don't understand how tanks is played in there own game.
Because some ppl were crying about the difficulty of the role (in HW I mean, and even then that wasn't really difficult as ppl said) they changed the DRK and the WAR in SB. Result : there is less tanks players than before. More : the biggest change when SB has been released was for the DRK, to make it "for everyone". Now, we have less DRK than before. Even less than in HW, were the DRK was already the last tank picked by the players (even if everyone, or almost, according to say it was a good job).
The idea of skill choice in the game is not really good, because some abilities are too much useful to not use them.
And some are just... Useless.