The more I think about the coming job system, the more I'm underwhelmed by it. There are various parts about it that I find either too restricting or just not well thought out. I know we really don't know much about it yet and none of us have tested it for ourselves but, judging by the information we do know, I think they could have done much better.
The main problem I see with the job system is that they're locked to their weapon class (I'm fairly sure this was confirmed). Another thing that kind of bothers me, which others may actually welcome, is that some jobs in the future will be unlocked by leveling a combination of classes. This may seem like a good thing to some (more jobs to choose from overall) but I view it as a bad thing (less weapon variety). There's also the fact that jobs themselves don't have levels, but the system I'd prefer doesn't have them either so I won't go there.
I'd rather see a system where 1 weapon class unlocks 1 job. Jobs could still be "equipped" with job stones, but the jobs themselves can be equipped while wielding a variety of weapons. So you'd be able to have a Thief with either a sword, dagger, sai, etc., not just a dagger. Having more weapon classes also gives us more to actually do in the game. Even though it's just grinding, it's still something that would keep us busy. The more the better.
Here's an example of the weapons I'd like to see as well as the jobs they'd unlock.
Knuckles -------------- Black Belt
Pole ------------------ Monk
Dagger ---------------- Thief
Sai ------------------- Dancer
Sword ----------------- Paladin
Great Sword ----------- Lanista
Axe ------------------- Viking
Great Axe ------------- Warrior
Scythe ---------------- Dark Knight
Spear ----------------- Dragoon
Katana ---------------- Ninja
Great Katana ---------- Samurai
Bow ------------------- Ranger
Crossbow -------------- Sniper
Gun ------------------- Corsair
Whip ------------------ Beastmaster
Megaphone ------------- Puppetmaster
Hammer ---------------- White Mage
Wand ------------------ Black Mage
Rapier ---------------- Red Mage
Saber ----------------- Blue Mage
Mace ------------------ Green Mage
Rod ------------------- Time Mage
Sceptre --------------- Arcanist
Staff ----------------- Evoker
Instruments ----------- Bard
Bell ------------------ Geomancer
Book ------------------ Scholar
All of the above ------ Onion Knight
28 weapon classes and 29 jobs (30 if you count Freelancer), 17 DoW and 11 DoM. Jobs would still not have their own levels. The level of your equipped weapon (main hand) would be the level of your job. Not all weapons would be available for use on each job, but each job would have multiple weapons to choose from. All jobs would be ambidextrous. Different combos of weapons could be dual-wielded (Sword + Dagger, Axe + Saber, Rapier + Rod, etc.).
By playing as a weapon class only, AKA: Freelancer (no job stones equipped), you would be able to swap abilities from all other classes, baring some class-specific abilities. The abilities from the weapon you have equipped would be at 100% affinity, while those from other classes would be weaker. Weaponskills, however, would not be interchangeable as they are tied to their weapons (some job weaponskills do not follow this rule).
With a jobstone equipped, only the abilities from the job itself and the weapon you have equipped would be available for you to use. Affinity for abilities would be slightly higher than what they would be if you were a Freelancer to compensate for the restriction of available abilities to choose from.
Jobs themselves would have unique weaponskills as well. Some may be used with a number of weapons, while some may only be available to one weapon class. For instance, a Paladin could use Flat blade with either a Dagger, Sword or Saber equipped while Knights of the Round would be exclusive to swords.
Naturally, as I'm sure you can see, Jobs would be more catered to party environments whereas a Freelancer is more for solo.
This system also opens the doors to the Onion Knight job. This is very similar to Freelancer except for a few key differences. First, the Onion Knight would be able to equip all abilities from all classes (baring weaponskills) regardless of the weapon equipped. Second, all abilities would be at 100% affinity. And third, it can not equip any Ultimate weapons, though it would have a set of Onion Gear to call its own XD. Specialized jobs would still be better in party situations due to the boost in affinity, so this job would be best suited for solo. Consider it your Freelancer +1 reward for capping all classes.
The whole system is very similar to what we know about the job system so far except the major difference that weapons are interchangeable between jobs. I know the chance of getting them to reconsider their system is very unlikely, but let's be honest, we barely got any information on the job system when it was likely still open for feedback and suggestions and since then we still haven't received any new info. I don't know, maybe there's a chance that the job system is still not 100% concrete and they might reconsider certain aspects of it.
-
02-08-2012, 08:00 PMMeowyWowieArmory/Job system I would have preferred (Probably too late, but whatever)
-
02-08-2012, 08:58 PMCatapult
That, my dear, would be very complicated and take a lot of work.
That sort of scale, to me at least, is going over the top. -
02-08-2012, 09:13 PMChardrizard
I am sure patch will comes every 6 months now if they had to balance 29 jobs/classes.
-
02-08-2012, 09:16 PMyukikaze_yanagiEvery patchQuote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
-
02-08-2012, 09:20 PMMeowyWowie
Well, of course I'm thinking long term here lol. I can't imagine any developer releasing so many jobs at one time.
By comparison, FFXI has 20 jobs and 16 weapon classes. There's no reason FFXIV shouldn't be able to trump that. Just think of all that variety! XD -
02-08-2012, 09:31 PMShneibelvarie is good but that is way to much and class end up classing each otherQuote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
-
02-08-2012, 09:51 PMStanislawI suppose it's easy to miss because FFXI has been out for 10 years now and everyone's pretty much unlocked everything, but FFXI actually only starts you out with 6 jobs. So going by that logic, FFXIV already tops FFXI with 7 - and that's only counting the DoW/DoM classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
That isn't to say they're not going to release no more new classes/jobs in FFXIV. In fact, they've pretty much confirmed that they are going to in the future. -
02-08-2012, 10:01 PMChardrizardYes and look how many useless classes are there in FFXI. Varieties is good if u can keep them relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
-
02-08-2012, 10:34 PMMeowyWowie
Hmm, although I do like variety, maybe I did list too many weapons/jobs. Just look at them as examples of possible jobs. It seems everyone is focusing on that instead of how the system would work.
Regardless of how many classes/jobs we do get, I'd still prefer a 1:1 ratio for weapons and jobs simply because it gives us more things to keep us busy. By giving us jobs that come from combined classes (ie: CNJ + THM = RDM) they're taking away one class we could have had to level up.
The other part is being able to equip different weapons on one job. A Paladin with a Rapier would give you a magic based tank. A Warrior can dual-wield 2 axes or an axe and shield and become an efficient tank (Viking would be a tank job while Warrior would be a DD in this case). A Ninja with ranged weapons. A Red Mage with Time Mage spells that would otherwise be class-specific. I could go on and on.
Sure, you can swap abilities between classes in our current system, but cross-class skills are always weaker. In this system they are as well, but again, only when cross-classed. The difference is that when a job equips a weapon not usually meant for its class, it would get 100% affinity with the weapon's native abilities. It's far more effective than FFXI's subjob system (sub class abilities would actually be worth using) and it opens up a lot more customization to the players.
More difficult to balance? Sure. But in the grand scheme of things, I'd say it's a sacrifice worth making. -
02-08-2012, 11:04 PMFiosha_Maureiba
With the newer FF jobs, Red Mage doesn't lend itself well to cross job concepts.
A tangent here.
Red Mage in olden days used many Fighter weapons, medium tier armor just not the plate, a shield, with access to most white and black magic. In Ivalice, there's the introduction or popularization of Green and Arcane magic. And then there's Time magic.
If jobs don't exist for Green, Time, and Arcane, then those spells can be rolled into White, Black, and Red Mages.
And if Red Mage becomes a specialist, then he isn't following the hybrid design. Which leads to spells no other job has or that the Red Mage is a superior caster on this.
Just pondering aloud.
/tangent -
02-09-2012, 12:19 AMsyntaxlieswow, underwhelmed was the exact same word i used in a another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
-
02-09-2012, 01:07 AMRazen_Arghast
What the hell is a Lanista?
-
02-09-2012, 01:16 AMElexiaThey did perfectly fine balancing FFXI around 20 jobs, multiple weapon types and so on. It wasn't until they went past 75 cap (and Abyssea) did game balance start getting wonky. Players are what unbalances thing in every MMO and the company responds to that balance they create and make adjustments, i.e Ninja becoming a tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
XI had only slow patches in 2007 - 2010 due to FFXIV's production. So patches wouldn't slow down based on her idea at all, the problem would indeed fall onto the playerbase and how they pigeonhole classes.
There are zero useless classes in FFXI, there's only player perception and idiocy. For example name one useless job that isn't hated by players for a dumb reason, I bet the first thing you'll mention is Puppetmaster, Summoner, Dragoon or Beastmaster amiryte?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardrizard
-
02-09-2012, 01:30 AMChardrizard
Yes, let's all find a community where everyone accept any other classes even though they have proven to be less effective/stronger/efficient. Stop day dreaming, before it's too late.
FFXI balances was horrible. It was ARC eras, SAM eras, WAR eras, THF/DRG eras.. There was never a clear balance and they had to resort to one desperate act to make all classes relevant. Abyssea Proc.. Yay all classes are useful now! -
02-09-2012, 01:36 AMElexia
There were never "job eras" just ability to setup a burn, which only even worked on certain mob types due to one class being more proficient at damaging a certain mob type, e.g King Ranperre's Tomb Monk burns because they fight under better (blunt damage) than someone who uses only piercing damage. It happens in all MMOs when people find something that works very efficiently and only goes with that. Its even more typical in MMOs with skill trees.
The Proc system wasn't what made all jobs useful, it forced players to finally bring other people instead of trying to continue to do things in their usual niche (aka player contrived problem.) Best part is "DRG era" never existed, it was called the "2-handed era" if you're going to talk about "eras", which was due to very low TP floor which allowed you to spam WSs as a 2-handed, this was 2003, aka 1 year after FFXI release which the game was still being refined.
I'm still waiting for the "many useless classes" to be listed. -
02-09-2012, 01:40 AMDoctorMog
Oh so everyone plays Onion Knight.
It has all abilities of all other classes and can equip all weapons except relics or w/e
Sounds balanced. -
02-09-2012, 02:07 AMRazen_Arghast
I'm guessing it would take quite a long time to cap everything so you could use Onion Knight and even then you could consider it like an "end-game cookie-cutter solo build" of sorts. Wouldn't/Shouldn't work better than everything else in specialized role parties anyway.
Also, what the hell is a Lanista?! It has a totally meh sound to it. -
02-09-2012, 02:55 AMElexia
Iirc, a Lanista is basically someone who trains gladiators or basically a "Top tier Gladiator" that commands the newbies.
Much like WAR in XI, could use all weapons with some proficiency but mastered none but Great Axe. The ability thing though..yeah that isn't lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorMog
-
02-09-2012, 03:20 AMEnma
OP:
It would be a system similiar to FFXI's one. Tha main problem, in my opinion, is that the Armoury System it's the only thing that has survived since day one. It has been improved but it's quite the same. I don't know if Yoshi has ideas about drastically change it... :/ -
02-09-2012, 03:35 AMZantetsukenThis reminds me of a story:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
And so it goes...Quote:
There once was a MMO called 'Rock, Paper and Scissors'. This MMO was remarkable due to the fact that each of it's three classes was perfectly balanced. Monsters also used the same classes as players, which meant that every encounter was balanced as well.
Originally, the world was divided into equal sized islands inhabited only by mob parties. Each mob party consisted of one of each of the three classes. This was done so that when fighting, all classes would be necessary to win and nobody was left out.
But there was a problem. The game was very boring. Every area was exactly the same and every battle was as well. There was really no point to travel anywhere. Seeing this, the development team decided they would make the world a bit more realistic and irregular in it's design. They made some mobs that were not part of mob parties, and made some mob parties with more than one of the same type of mob.
Shortly after the launch of the game, some efficiency-minded players found an easily accessible place in the world where there was a few more of the 'Paper' mobs than others. Upon learning this, the players who wanted to progress faster than the others immediately switched to the 'Scissors' to take advantage of it. Other players began to look with envy on those who had advanced so fast. They also changed their class to 'Scissors' in order to exploit the situation.
A few weeks had passed and 'Scissor-spam' quickly became the only way to play. It was very difficult for anyone to get into a party unless they were playing 'Scissors' and even those who didn't like 'Scissors' at all were forced to take it up just to get an invite. (LOLPaper = No, Thanks)
Not much later, the 'Scissors' players (most of the player base) were capped and began to complain about 'Rock' and 'Paper' being weak, irrelevant, and a grind to level. Those few who did not play 'Scissors' complained as well, claiming that 'Scissors' was far too powerful.
The developers heard the feedback and they wondered why 'Scissors' had become so powerful when their internal testing had shown that all three were as balanced as they could be.
With considerable internal testing showing that 'Rock' and 'Paper' where already balanced, they decided to nerf 'Scissors' a bit. This angered the player base who was furious that all their hard work was now wasted on a gimped class. The player base quickly ditched 'Scissors' and the Efficiency Hounds quickly found the next most accessible spot, with slightly more 'Rock' mobs than in other places.
The news got out and the players quickly switched to 'Paper' class in order to take advantage of this new discovery.
-
02-09-2012, 05:22 AMMeowyWowieLanista is a job from Final Fantasy Tactics A2 which specializes in Great Swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razen_Arghast
They're quite similar to Dark Knights in that they consume their own HP to deal damage but also include party buffs and have the ability to break the target's armor.