DPS Enmity controls

I've been tanking in DPS stance for awhile now and its been fine most of the time, even with maxed gear dps. But I have noticed a trend that some classes seems to always push the enmity forcing me to DA Power Slash every now and then.

Of the classes I've seen, one of the main offenders is SAM. Did they not recently get a new tool for enmity control? Not sure if its effective enough for them.

Are there any other DPS classes I should watch out for when it comes to enmity? Every now and then I see a DPS pretty much on my tail at around 40% below boss HP and I'm not sure if its them not using their enmity skills or just that they are the dps god.

I personally play MNK and NIN and I don't see any issues with MNK with the new enmity drop, but most of the time this happens is with BRD/RDM/BLM but don't they have the best enmity drops in the game?

Currently all the classes sans NIN has an instant enmity dump. NIN can transfer their aggro to another member in their party but that shouldn't be too much of a problem for them lacking an enmity dump. If you are actually having trouble keeping aggro it's either that your gear isn't up to par (I doubt), the DPS is doing crazy high damage or DPS isn't using aggro management. If it's the third, feel free to help them drop aggro :>

Enmity is often an problem for burst jobs like SAM, RDM and BLM as they can easily creep up the aggro ladder with their damage output. Of course it's also possible some jobs are more geared than the main tank therefore closing the gap even more in terms of who's next for aggro, it's quite possible to see WHMs or MCHs second in the list a number of times. Every job (non tanks) do have access to emnity reducing skills though, with some built in to other actions, but the main ones come from cross role and not everyone takes them or don't want to use them for aggro proposes (i.e. saving Lucid for MP or Tactician for TP etc).

We also need to remember that it is the priority of the tank to keep aggro and they have the permanent tools to do this with their tank stance and emnity increasing actions. Other roles however have to deal with often lengthly cooldowns to reduce any emnity that they may have, and at that point if they are using everything available to them and the tank is still having issues stabilising aggro then that's really a problem the tank needs to look at rather than the rest of the party.

Keep in mind that if you are ever matched up with players that have better gear than you, enmity can become an issue and you may have to squeeze in either more aggro combos throughout a fight, or quickly swap into tank stance if you absolutely cannot keep hate off of DPS that are actively rotating their enmity management tools. If they are not rotating their enmity management, then they are at fault for not keeping an eye on their aggro if they rip hate from you.

That being said, with regards to these jobs’ enmity management—

BRD: BRD main, here. O/ We have two enmity dumps (Refresh and Tactician), meaning our enmity is halved upon usage, but we continue to generate it at the same rate afterwards. The most optimal opener for BRD (for raids/bosses) requires us to use one pre-pull to extend Foe Requiem (Refresh) for more party damage output, so we have Tactician only after that. Proper usage of the latter would be it after our opener resolves (~25 seconds in), but we will still be on the cusp of ripping hate if we have a high critical hit rate, and we got a lot of procs during our opener until then.

BRD has some of the highest burst inside its opener out of all the DPS, so an unprepared tank can lose aggro to them. I have ripped off of a geared tank before my opener was even finished just due to back-to-back procs, hit Tactician to dump it, and then after my opener resolves, I’m back at 2nd highest enmity again. Their dumps are not efficient enough for a job that has burst phases every 80 seconds for 20 seconds, in my opinion; Diversion would suit them far better.

If we’re talking about dungeons, Tactician could be down for TP regen after AOEing during a large pull. Refresh should generally be up unless the healer is struggling to heal, or they got AOE-happy. Just keep in mind that both of these have support tied to them (MP/TP regeneration), so if things have gone south and someone needs TP, or the healers need MP, they may not be available for enmity dumping when you need them to be. Generally speaking though, if you are doing all you can to manage hate, and they are actively rotating their dumps, you should not have too many issues unless your gear discrepancy is large. Just know that it’s not abnormal to see a decent BRD on your tail most of the times.


RDM: RDM’s burst is primarily in their first couple of GCDs, where they weave in Flèche and Contre Sixte. However, they should be using Diversion in any pre-pull situations, so enmity becomes a non-issue, since Diversion is stupidly good now (90% enmity generation reduction for 30 seconds). They also have Lucid Dreaming to dump their enmity later on after any burst they may have, if enmity management is needed.


BLM: They have access to both an enmity queller (Diversion) and an enmity dump (Lucid Dreaming) like RDM does. However, I do not know enough about a BLM’s rotation to know when they are bursting for (I do know they burst fairly high though, and have a very high damage sustain). Assuming they are using Diversion in their opener, you should not have any enmity problems there. Later on, though, I’m assuming they should be rotating both according to Ley Lines windows and/or other periods where they would have a lot of damage going out. They have a high sustain though, so they will start to catch you as the fight progresses between enmity management.


SAM: These dudes should be using Diversion. There is no excuse for them not to be actively rotating it, as it’s easily weavable and a god-tier enmity management tool. Their new enmity management tool is on Merciful Eye, which requires Third Eye to proc in order to use it...which in turn requires the SAM to take damage. (Both new enmity tools for MNK/SAM are also DPS losses, as Chakra stacks could be used on Forbidden Chakra over Purification, and Third Eye procs on Seigan.)


MNK can fall in with BRD and BLM that they have really high burst, and, like BLM, they have a really high sustain. It’s not surprising to see them also catching you as the fight drags on.


Overall, as I said, if people are actively rotating their enmity management tools, it may just be a gear discrepancy between yourself and the other DPS causing them to start catching you halfway through a fight. I would not be surprised, though, if some were not using their enmity management tools. That’s not an uncommon occurrence when you’re in Duty Finder.

DPS should be aware of there aggro and be using Diversion and there aggro cutter when needed

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Originally Posted by Duskane

bit of a DRK issue aswell
Since its enmity kit isn't as good as other tanks since DP isnt worth it,
So your pretty much stuck with DA+Plunge and throwing out a Power slash on some occasions .

DPS should be aware of there aggro and be using Diversion and there aggro cutter when needed

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Since the Patch 4.3 changes, this is no longer the case. DRK is a god in terms of aggro generation now, and Dark Passenger is used in the opener.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

bit of a DRK issue aswell
Since its enmity kit isn't as good as other tanks since DP isnt worth it,
So your pretty much stuck with DA+Plunge and throwing out a Power slash on some occasions .

DPS should be aware of there aggro and be using Diversion and there aggro cutter when needed

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I laughed a little at "DRK enmity kit isn't as good since DP isn't worth it".

1) A Grit - Dark Arts - Power Slash is a melee LB3 worth of aggro (around 250k - 300k "aggro" damage). Sure you lose a little bit of damage at the start compared to a WAR, but the aggro lead is much bigger (damage loss on pull is smaller on DRK than on PLD, if the PLD pulls with Shield Oath).
2) People aren't applying slashing debuff on the very first GCD. And you can use Dark Arts Dark Passenger on the first or second GCD for an even stronger aggro lead (which isn't even a loss since DP does as much damage a a DA without slashing).
3) DA Plunge aggro is much smaller than DA DP.
4) People should use Diversion either on cooldown or synced to their burst phases. But I agree, enmity is a group effort, and DPS should be aware of that.

Basically, a Grit - DA PS opener followed by some shirks from the OT and you're guaranteed to never lose hate with a DRK, even if the WHM goes wild.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

I laughed a little

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https://thumbs.gfycat.com/Inconseque...restricted.gif

I know it's because you want to maximize DPS, but there is quite some irony in a tank who isn't using tank stance or his enmity combo complaining about others not using their enmity tools...

I always use diversion pre-pull and if start to get agro later on while diversion is on cd must resort to using Lucid Dreaming. All parties have to do their part really

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

I know it's because you want to maximize DPS, but there is quite some irony in a tank who isn't using tank stance or his enmity combo complaining about others not using their enmity tools...

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If other jobs are also managing enmity, there is no need for either barring gear discrepancy. Enmity management is a group thing, not just a tank thing. But if OP is fairly undergeared compared to their DPS in their party, they're going to have to use more aggro combos or switch on Grit for a little bit.

All the DPS in the game have more than enough enmity control tools to ensure that all tanks can stay in their DPS stance the whole fight. Easily.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

I know it's because you want to maximize DPS, but there is quite some irony in a tank who isn't using tank stance or his enmity combo complaining about others not using their enmity tools...

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I'm sorry but the only irony here is how oblivious a DPS must be to even believe in such thing.

The DPS roles lose literally *nothing* in order to use their enmity tools. They are all instant cast OGCDs with zero impact in their rotation. Some DPS can even directly dump their aggro if the situation requires it (Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump,... etc).

Meanwhile, Tanks have to sacrifice not only around ~20% of their damage just to enter Tank Stance (and even a whole GCD if you are not a WAR), but their enmity combo is just terrible dps-wise, generate less gauge/resources, and can also mess up their entire rotation.

If you don't use your aggro tools to help with enmity, you have absolutely no right to complain about stealing aggro and getting killed, period.

The only real job that should be causing enmity issues to the Tanks and requiring extra enmity care is the WHM. Lucid Dreaming is simply not enough to mitigate their huge healing output in some fights.

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Originally Posted by Lilyth

The DPS roles lose literally *nothing* in order to use their enmity tools. They are all instant cast OGCDs with zero impact in their rotation. Some DPS can even directly dump their aggro if the situation requires it (Lucid Dreaming, Elusive Jump,... etc).

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While I agree with you, I do want to point out that BRD/MCH do technically lose a support/offensive tool by having to use Tactician or Refresh for enmity control. I just disagree with the idea of tying enmity management to skills that are supposed to be used for party support (or offensively for the party’s damage, like Refresh is used at higher levels of play). Rather, BRD/MCH should either have Diversion or something put on Repelling Shot/Blank Shot to make them not hotbar trash.

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If you don't use your aggro tools to help with enmity, you have absolutely no right to complain about stealing aggro and getting killed, period.

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Basically this.

Depends really. Sometimes if the gear difference is too great the enmity reduction tools sometimes wont be enough and the tank will either need to be in tank stance. However RDM and BLM have enough tools. Often if you see them take enmity from you they are not using their tools.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While I agree with you, I do want to point out that BRD/MCH do technically lose a support/offensive tool by having to use Tactician or Refresh for enmity control. I just disagree with the idea of tying enmity management to skills that are supposed to be used for party support (or offensively for the party’s damage, like Refresh is used at higher levels of play). Rather, BRD/MCH should either have Diversion or something put on Repelling Shot/Blank Shot to make them not hotbar trash.

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The funny thing is BRD used to be the job/class to learn "Diversion" aka Quelling Strikes, back in 3.x. Without leveling BRD (to Lv. 34) other classes and jobs had no access to enmity reducing tools. Now it's completely different.

Diversion now being a role skill and available to any DPS class/job except BRD/ARC/MCH is still beyond me.

I still remember our BRD ripping aggro off of me while "pulling" in O6s, once he started getting procs like crazy. (And we had no NIN!)

b@Topic: In full parties, OT should (voke-)shirk MT on CD except there is a swap mechanic coming in the next 2 minutes. Any DPS job should use Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/Refresh etc. There is no reason not to. And don't let a DRG tell you he doesn't have any slots left, and he would need Invigorate (based on a true story!).

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

The funny thing is BRD used to be the job/class to learn "Diversion" aka Quelling Strikes, back in 3.x. Without leveling BRD (to Lv. 34) other classes and jobs had no access to enmity reducing tools. Now it's completely different.

Diversion now being a role skill and available to any DPS class/job except BRD/ARC/MCH is still beyond me.

I still remember our BRD ripping aggro off of me while "pulling" in O6s, once he started getting procs like crazy. (And we had no NIN!)

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Diversion basically uses Quelling Strikes’ animation, and it’s original 4.0 version was Quelling Strikes lol. Now it’s Quelling Strikes on steroids.

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b@Topic: In full parties, OT should (voke-)shirk MT on CD except there is a swap mechanic coming in the next 2 minutes. Any DPS job should use Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/Refresh etc. There is no reason not to. And don't let a DRG tell you he doesn't have any slots left, and he would need Invigorate (based on a true story!).

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DRG shouldn’t even need Diversion—they have a free aggro dump every 30 seconds lol. They have no excuse for aggro problems lol.

I hate to say it, however someone has to. Knowing your job is more than just gearing and using CD. There is a reason why there are support jobs that can transfer or diminish enmity generation either by actions or role traits. As a tank it's rare that I have enmity issues at all if anything I normally take enmity without really trying. Gear is only part of it. As a tank you can request people's assistance or even ask for tips. As long as your doing your best most will try to help. Sure you will be open to be criticized for it, however there is no shame in learning. Keep in mind that the majority of players are casual and most hardcore types are less likely to listen.

It’s DF. Not static, savage raid, fflogs type stuff. Do an extra aggro combo and move on. If my blm pulls aggro, you’re not doing enough damage in dps stance anyway.

Diversion pre pull is no problem. Using Lucid because you wanna dps messes with my mana for 3 rotations.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

DRG shouldn’t even need Diversion—they have a free aggro dump every 30 seconds lol. They have no excuse for aggro problems lol.

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That's half true.

Sure, DRG has Elusive Jump to half their current enmity, but they don't and shouldn't use it in their opener. They also have one of the highest burst in the game, so Diversion is recommended there.

Not really necessary when MT has high(er) gear and/or there is a NIN with Shadewalker, though.

edit: Elusive Jump unfortunately doesn't allow to double weave and is a positioning tool. It should not be used if it's not an emergency.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

That's half true.

Sure, DRG has Elusive Jump to half their current enmity, but they don't and shouldn't use it in their opener. They also have one of the highest burst in the game, so Diversion is recommended there.

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You don’t need either in your opener on DRG. BRD and MNK burst for more than DRG does in terms of opening burst.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You don’t need either in your opener on DRG. BRD and MNK burst for more than DRG does in terms of opening burst.

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Your first statement is wrong. Diversion is common in DRG openers, look up any decent DRG guide, or speed run and you will see it by yourself. Don't soften your enmity in your opener, and you risk ripping it off of the tank soon.
Keep in mind that Elusive Jump is a positioning tool and should not be used unless you really screwed up your enmity.
Lowering your burst enmity in the first 30 sec from 8k-10k to 800-1k is HUGE and will keep you safe from creeping up the enmity bar.
Also, if the tank has lower gear then DRG, I garantee you: DRG will rip aggro from tank without Elusive Jump or Diversion.

Your second statement, again half true.
MNK burst is indeed higher than DRG, yet the only (useful) available tool for MNK is Diversion and they must use it.
BRD burst on the other hand isn't necessary higher than DRG's. It varies depending on Crit-/DH-luck, BRD-procs and party synergy.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

It’s DF. Not static, savage raid, fflogs type stuff. Do an extra aggro combo and move on. If my blm pulls aggro, you’re not doing enough damage in dps stance anyway.

Diversion pre pull is no problem. Using Lucid because you wanna dps messes with my mana for 3 rotations.

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Uh, BLMs prefer Lucid to Diversion. If you're not using it, you've done something wrong.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

BRD burst on the other hand isn't necessary higher than DRG's. It varies depending on Crit-/DH-luck, BRD-procs and party synergy.

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To be fair, in an optimal setting, BRD aggro will generate far higher than DRG unless RNG utterly hates them. That being said, you have nothing better to take than Diversion. TP has kind of become a moot point nowadays, so Invigorate isn't what it used to be.

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

It’s DF. Not static, savage raid, fflogs type stuff. Do an extra aggro combo and move on. If my blm pulls aggro, you’re not doing enough damage in dps stance anyway.

Diversion pre pull is no problem. Using Lucid because you wanna dps messes with my mana for 3 rotations.

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Enmity management is a party-wide responsibility. So while, yes, the tank can do an extra aggro combo, your BLM should also be trying to control their own enmity instead of forcing the responsibility onto others. I don’t feel sorry for DPS that refuse to use their enmity tools given to them to control their aggro when they die due to ripping hate.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh, BLMs prefer Lucid to Diversion. If you're not using it, you've done something wrong.

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We use both, especially if there's no Ninja, and on encounters with adds.

Here is my updated enmity combination :)
Since I am overgeared and I tank as a white mage (and in raids am protected by a PLD's Cover)

New Aggro Combo for 2 Tanks + WHM + NIN

1) PLD fights using Tank Stance and Generates as much aggro as possible.
2) WHM uses Asylum and all party members get in.
3) NIN uses Shadewalker on WHM and continues to DPS boss

4a) WHM uses PoM + Thin Air + Largesse followed by 5 - 6 Cure IIIs + Swiftcasted Medica II + Planery making sure all eight members are hit.
4b) During this time PLD uses Cover on WHM to redirect damage to self especially tank busters.

Tanks now regain control
5) Main Tank Shirks the White Mage and then uses Provoke
6) Off Tank uses Provoke and then Shirks the Main Tank

7) White Mage uses Lucid Dreaming to cut Enmity in Half

Enjoy the Super Aggro Lead

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

DRG shouldn’t even need Diversion—they have a free aggro dump every 30 seconds lol. They have no excuse for aggro problems lol.

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There's two problems with that: One is that it directly removes their uptime. Two is that some fights are not good for a player to suddenly jump in a random direction (like fire III).

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

There's two problems with that: One is that it directly removes their uptime. Two is that some fights are not good for a player to suddenly jump in a random direction (like fire III).

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I mean, your GCD loss isn't going to make up the difference of forcing a tank into tank stance at the cost of 20% of their damage, plus MP and using a less potent combo. So... use Diversion to avoid this problem or I will let you die. :v

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I mean, your GCD loss isn't going to make up the difference of forcing a tank into tank stance at the cost of 20% of their damage, plus MP and using a less potent combo. So... use Diversion to avoid this problem or I will let you die. :v

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I am a tank. I just have a dragoon alt.

And personally, I will jump into tank stance if I think my threat OR my survivability needs it, because I deal with PUGs enough that I'm not risking it.

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Originally Posted by Stabby-Chan

Here is my updated enmity combination :)

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Unfortunately, that may be the most inefficient threat opener ever. You lose:
- About 4k DPS (maybe more ?) at the start of the fight (since PoM + spam Stone IV deals a lot)
- Your most powerful mana management tool for the next 2 minutes
- Largesse, depends on the fight but sometimes it's good to have it early (looking at first forsaken)
- Cover, unusable for the next two minutes (on O7S and O8S, Cover is very useful even in the first 30s into the fight for example).

A WAR or DRK can generate as much hate at the cost of a minimal DPS loss, but instead of 7 healing spells you get 7 Stone IV during the initial raid buffs window. And you keep all those buffs for when they are needed.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Enmity management is a party-wide responsibility. So while, yes, the tank can do an extra aggro combo, your BLM should also be trying to control their own enmity instead of forcing the responsibility onto others. I don’t feel sorry for DPS that refuse to use their enmity tools given to them to control their aggro when they die due to ripping hate.

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It's a party wide responsibility, yes, but yet you are promoting that everyone but the tank, who's primary job is keeping aggro, take that responsibility (since it seems you don't want to use the aggro combo at all). The tank is part of the party too, you know?

Letting a DPS take aggro and then let that DPS die, having him being ressed with almost no mp and tp lowers the party wide DPS way more than throwing an aggro combo now and then, or even switching to tank stance for 3 aggro combos or so and subsequently not needing to worry about aggro anymore. The suggested tank behaviour you promote here is hurting the party and thus yourself, just because you want to DPS, but don't want DPS queues.

Again, to avoid a misunderstanding: Yes, DPS should use their aggro tools, but if they don't, it's the tank's responsibility to make up for their mistake. Imagine what would happen if healers did the same: Only heal the damage that is unavoidable, if someone gets hit by some avoidable AoE, don't heal that portion, because it lowers the healers DPS. That's the healer equivalent of what you are promoting for tanks.

Every party member is supposed to make up for other party members' mistakes if they can. And again: the tank is also a party member.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

Again, to avoid a misunderstanding: Yes, DPS should use their aggro tools, but if they don't, it's the tank's responsibility to make up for their mistake. Imagine what would happen if healers did the same: Only heal the damage that is unavoidable, if someone gets hit by some avoidable AoE, don't heal that portion, because it lowers the healers DPS. That's the healer equivalent of what you are promoting for tanks.

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I have no qualms switching to tank stance if people are dying and healer MP is getting stretched thin or if a DPS who has used their aggro abilities begins catching up again. I do, however, take issue with being forced into tank stance and having to spam multiple combos because a Samurai or White Mage refuses to dump their aggro. It has nothing to do with wanting to DPS more, it simply annoys me, especially on Dark Knight since Grit + Powerslash can mess with the rotation flow. If you constantly baby people, they'll never use their aggro abilities. I've let someone eat a tank buster before, it's funny how they suddenly remembered what Diversion and Lucid do. Likewise, I do this on healers. If someone continuously dies to avoidable damage, you've become a liability to my MP and can stay on the floor. Just like with tanks and aggro, it's amazing how quickly people learn to actually dodge when the healers get fed up raising them.

As far as I'm concerned there's a limit. If things are going poorly for the whole alliance, sure, I'll play more conservatively. Is someone new? I'll be far more patience. And, of course, if my ilvl is much lower, I'll compensate. Beyond that, no, I am not correcting for someone too lazy to bring Diversion. If I do another aggro combo or two and that isn't enough, the boss will mitigate the problem. And maybe next time you'll use Diversion.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

It's a party wide responsibility, yes, but yet you are promoting that everyone but the tank, who's primary job is keeping aggro, take that responsibility (since it seems you don't want to use the aggro combo at all). The tank is part of the party too, you know?

Letting a DPS take aggro and then let that DPS die, having him being ressed with almost no mp and tp lowers the party wide DPS way more than throwing an aggro combo now and then, or even switching to tank stance for 3 aggro combos or so and subsequently not needing to worry about aggro anymore. The suggested tank behaviour you promote here is hurting the party and thus yourself, just because you want to DPS, but don't want DPS queues.

Again, to avoid a misunderstanding: Yes, DPS should use their aggro tools, but if they don't, it's the tank's responsibility to make up for their mistake. Imagine what would happen if healers did the same: Only heal the damage that is unavoidable, if someone gets hit by some avoidable AoE, don't heal that portion, because it lowers the healers DPS. That's the healer equivalent of what you are promoting for tanks.

Every party member is supposed to make up for other party members' mistakes if they can. And again: the tank is also a party member.

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No, I'm promoting that DPS use the tools given to them instead of saying "it's the tanks reaponsibility, not mine", which is basically what a few have said in this thread (Boris, for example, who said tanks should use more aggro combos or tank stance instead of his BLM using Lucid or Diversion to make things easier).

If the DPS refuse to use enmity tools, it is not the tank's responsibility to make up for their ineptitude. If DPS are actively rotating Diversion/Lucid/Refresh/Tactician/Elusive Jump and still catching the tank on enmity, then there are no issues with tanks having to switch into tank stance for a couple of GCDs, or do an extra enmity combo or two. But if the DPS are not, why should the tank be the one to adjust? They're a party member, but that's not teamwork. That's, again, forcing the responsibility onto the tank because DPS are too lazy to hit a button to quell or halve their current enmity.

I don't play tanks often. So the insinuation I'm just wanting to DPS with faster queues is incorrect. I do, however, play healers, and if someone (who is not brand new to the Duty) dies more than three times to avoidable damage; I stop raising them because they're now a liability to, and a waste of, my MP. I also keep track of my enmity on WHM, and manage it accordingly. I don't feel sorry for other WHMs that don't. If my enmity is unavoidable due to sheer amounts of healing even with Lucid rotating, then usually tanks adjust when I've done all I can. I don't blame them for not adjusting, though, if I'm pulling aggro and sitting on Lucid twiddling my thumbs.

DPS should use their enmity tools. Tanks should do extra aggro combos or switch to tank stance if they are still being caught by those DPS. But by DPS who refuse to hit Diversion or Lucid or another enmity tool? No, I don't think a tank should compensate for that. The DPS isn't being a team player, so why should the tank have to make up for that? If the DPS rip hate, well maybe they'll learn the value of their enmity tools for the next time.

Definitely all roles should make an effort to manage their enmity, but at the end of the day content (unless it's Ultimate perhaps?) is balanced around tanks being in their tank stance and using the necessary tools regularly to maintain aggro. If any tank wants to go DPS stance just to maximize their damage output but then find themselves competing for aggro then something has to give, either the other players use their emnity actions (if they are available or not on cd) or the tank needs to man up and adjust as necessary. Maintaining aggro is the bigger priority than using the DPS rotation, which should only matter if you are aiming for a speed run anyway, and many DPS checks can be passed without tank assistance so it's not like you are doing everyone a favour.

Emnity actions are often optional for most roles, (aside from the few ones that are built in to other actions), while tanks have permanent access to them so it kinda says a lot on SE's part on what is and isn't the responsibility of roles. Make more emnity actions built in to others and players might actually manage their aggro more, especially those you meet through the Duty Finder.

Essentially emnity needs to stop being treated as a dick sizing contest on who can dps the most and if someone messes they up, they get punished by letting them die, it does no one any favours and only promotes toxicity because someone doesn't play how YOU want.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Essentially emnity needs to stop being treated as a dick sizing contest on who can dps the most and if someone messes they up, they get punished by letting them die, it does no one any favours and only promotes toxicity because someone doesn't play how YOU want.

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By that logic, someone refusing to use Diversion is forcing tanks to play in a way they may not want to. It goes both ways. Why should I adjust and play sub-optimally because a Samurai can't be bothered to slot Diversion? What makes this worse is literally nothing changes for DPS roles if they slot an aggro dump. You weave it between your GCD and either use it on CD or hold until your next burst phase.

Now both the tank and DPS can play how they want. Why is that such a problem?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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Because unless you are in a pre-formed party or doing content that requires the role to perform optimally, why should you even be forcing your own expected playstyle on to other players. You shouldn't, and unless SE decide to merge more emnity management skills in to current job actions (so they are not optional), then there is absolutely nothing to enforce that expectation.

Yes it does help when the whole team does their part, but in the end the role of tanks is to maintain aggro, there is no "play in a way they may not want to" about it. While DPS and Healers CAN assist using skills, this is not an actual requirement. If the tank is able to keep aggro and the content is still cleared regardless (i.e. no one is actively preventing completion), then managing emnity is suddenly a moot point.

FFXIV has a lot of role overlap. Healers have some of the best tools to shield and heal up raidwide damage. But tanks and dps contribute here too, with abilities like Veil, Shake, Addle, and Mantra. You might think that only tanks are involved in mitigating tankbusters, but both healers and dps are involved here too, with abilities like Adlo, Benison, Palisade, and Apoc. Similarly, you might think that a dps check is purely the remit of damage dealers, but more often than not, tanks and healers find themselves playing more aggressively to push those last few percentages into a clear.

At lower difficulty levels, this means that good players can cross compensate for weaker players. At higher difficulty levels, this sort of "cross-role" gameplay isn't optional. The goal is never to just "do your job". The goal is to contribute everything that you can to your teammates so that you can win.

RDM and SMN are dps. Why should you raise dead players? Raising is a dps loss. Let the healers do it. After all, it's their job. Not yours. Your job is to mentally afk while creating an exciting fireworks display. If you wipe, you can always blame it on them. They should just heal better. Right?

If a dps refuses to use their enmity tools, you're forced to find other ways to make up the difference. At the end of the day, your goal is to clear the content, and do so as efficiently as possible, even if it means losing out on a bit of dps. Sometimes you have to work around a weaker player. But that also means that when you have a choice of teammates, you're going to pick someone with a similar mindset. Not someone who thinks that it's "not their job" to use their toolkit to its full potential in order to win.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

No, I'm promoting that DPS use the tools given to them instead of saying "it's the tanks reaponsibility, not mine", which is basically what a few have said in this thread (Boris, for example, who said tanks should use more aggro combos or tank stance instead of his BLM using Lucid or Diversion to make things easier).

If the DPS refuse to use enmity tools, it is not the tank's responsibility to make up for their ineptitude. If DPS are actively rotating Diversion/Lucid/Refresh/Tactician/Elusive Jump and still catching the tank on enmity, then there are no issues with tanks having to switch into tank stance for a couple of GCDs, or do an extra enmity combo or two. But if the DPS are not, why should the tank be the one to adjust? They're a party member, but that's not teamwork. That's, again, forcing the responsibility onto the tank because DPS are too lazy to hit a button to quell or halve their current enmity.

I don't play tanks often. So the insinuation I'm just wanting to DPS with faster queues is incorrect. I do, however, play healers, and if someone (who is not brand new to the Duty) dies more than three times to avoidable damage; I stop raising them because they're now a liability to, and a waste of, my MP. I also keep track of my enmity on WHM, and manage it accordingly. I don't feel sorry for other WHMs that don't. If my enmity is unavoidable due to sheer amounts of healing even with Lucid rotating, then usually tanks adjust when I've done all I can. I don't blame them for not adjusting, though, if I'm pulling aggro and sitting on Lucid twiddling my thumbs.

DPS should use their enmity tools. Tanks should do extra aggro combos or switch to tank stance if they are still being caught by those DPS. But by DPS who refuse to hit Diversion or Lucid or another enmity tool? No, I don't think a tank should compensate for that. The DPS isn't being a team player, so why should the tank have to make up for that? If the DPS rip hate, well maybe they'll learn the value of their enmity tools for the next time.

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Preach. Enmity is everyone's responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Because unless you are in a pre-formed party or doing content that requires the role to perform optimally, why should you even be forcing your own expected playstyle on to other players. You shouldn't, and unless SE decide to merge more emnity management skills in to current job actions (so they are not optional), then there is absolutely nothing to enforce that expectation.

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I reiterate. Why should they force their laziness onto me? By refusing to slot Diversion/Lucid, you're demanding the tank accommodate your laziness and blaming them if they choose not to when you have an option to entirely mitigate the problem without hampering your own DPS.

As a DRK main, after the Power Slash buff I have been using Dark Arts + Power Slash a lot more outside of tank stance (I only use Souleater combo for Delirium for extended Blood Weapon) and I end up ripping aggro off of the other tanks and healers "oh shit" instinct kicks in and co-tank(s) more than likely just give up on holding aggro but still maintain a decent amount of aggro when needed... if Power Slash Dark Arts combo potency was increased by 170 and Syphon Strike gave 10 Blood Gauge as a combo bonus, I wonder which combo would be used more for DRK rotation... either way I'm just speaking from running standard content(no savage or extreme fights)...

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

As a DRK main, after the Power Slash buff I have been using Dark Arts + Power Slash a lot more outside of tank stance (I only use Souleater combo for Delirium for extended Blood Weapon) and I end up ripping aggro off of the other tanks and healers "oh shit" instinct kicks in and co-tank(s) more than likely just give up on holding aggro but still maintain a decent amount of aggro when needed... if Power Slash Dark Arts combo potency was increased by 170 and Syphon Strike gave 10 Blood Gauge as a combo bonus, I wonder which combo would be used more for DRK rotation... either way I'm just speaking from running standard content(no savage or extreme fights)...

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Aggro combo as offtank.
10/10.