E3 live letter

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Q: It feels like a lot of role actions are mandatory (protect/shirk) - will the devs remove these so it feels like role actions are more of a choice?

A: There were talks and debates about this - with any big update or expansion, discussions were had about if we change or revise things. There is a current discussion about this to address in 4.4. Nothing has been finalized, but once we have a thought on the direction we want to go we will talk about it at that time, perhaps a future live letter. We understand the frustrations and we are trying to address them

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Devs.

Please. PLEASE. Do this. Get protect and esuna out of the role shared actions system.

I feel like role actions would be better if we just learned them by level and had them, without having to set them, basically the same as learning a normal ability on a job but shared across all jobs in that role.

E.G. learn esuna at level 5, learned protect at level 10, clerics at 15, etc. etc.

Agreed. It makes no sense to put completely mandatory spells in the cross role. I like Cabalabob's idea of just forcing the abilities on you once you unlock the role action.

While I can live with Protect being a role action (though I'd certainly prefer to NOT have to choose, I just use a macro to swap in and out and if you die during battle - well, I'll just adlo you more),

Esuna being a role action is just so ugh. It's fine for content I've already done because I can make sure it's there, but I shouldn't -have- to waste a role action slot on a blind run of new content just in case it's needed - and then that awful feeling when I realize it's not.

There are 2 solutions (that are complete opposites of each other):
1. role actions need to be only things that don't feel necessary
2. they should just all be allocatable to the point that it's just another set of skills we earn. I'd love to be able to take all of them (even Break - it's one way to throw out some deeps while progging something if I'm afraid of using up too much MP on rezzes, but it's only worth it if nothing else is given up).

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I feel like role actions would be better if we just learned them by level and had them, without having to set them, basically the same as learning a normal ability on a job but shared across all jobs in that role.

E.G. learn esuna at level 5, learned protect at level 10, clerics at 15, etc. etc.

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I'd much rather have this current system than that one. This one allows a degree of choice, as opposed to having a cookie cutter skill option. For fights where specific role actions are needed, I have to make the decision to sacrifice other skills to make room, and I feel like this system has the potential to be really interesting from that point of view. What they need to do is remove the mandatory skills (shirk is not mandatory, but protect and provoke are) and think up some new role actions, even damaging abilities would allow for more interesting choice.

Some role actions that could exist:

Increased movement speed for X seconds (its extra sprint)
Some limited form of Aetherial Manipulation
Remove Onslaught and move Plunge to role skills

and that's just off the top of my head

Might as well get rid of all the buff spells and skills while we’re at it. Just add them to the stats. That way all we have to hit is 1-2-3 all day.

GIVE ME MY SHIVA EGIGLAMOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Esuna being a role action as far as I'm concerned did more harm than good. It's always great if you did like... Deltascape 4.0 normal and your healers not only don't have esuna equipped on a role slot, but not even on their hotbar.

Yes this happened.

I've also done runs where the healer (or healers) did not have Esuna on their role/hotbar, and people are running around with curable (but very detrimental!) status effects.

I hate having to Erase people because the healer couldn't be bothered to grab Esuna, and they think something stupid like Cleric's Stance is more important than Esuna or some dumb crap like that.

IMO, we should just get rid of role actions altogether -- get rid of the actions nobody uses and bake them into the default ability list. Role Actions are like the old WoW Talent system -- full of no-brainers and very seldom an actual choice or preference.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Esuna being a role action as far as I'm concerned did more harm than good. It's always great if you did like... Deltascape 4.0 normal and your healers not only don't have esuna equipped on a role slot, but not even on their hotbar.

Yes this happened.

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The worst part that burns my biscuits with that fight. Is esuan is used for 1 mechanic that happens once during that whole fight. Better that its esunable doom which is very detrimental not to deal with. It's there just to burn the slot.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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One Plunge should not be moved to Cross Role. yes, PLD's don't have a gap closer, but they are the only ones with a native gcd stun. among other things. yes, it sucks that PLD gave up stuff and didn't seem to get much back, but...let's be honest, they've become a power house and a CR gap closer would probably just be too powerful. Plunge also seems to be part of the Identity of the DRK, just like low blow was, but that got CR'd, so i can't see giving both of them up.

There are a LOT of jobs that gave up a ton to the CR that were native before SB and there have been many complaints, but no, I don't think taking a signature move away from any job is the answer. Next thing, you're going to say "I want Jump" or "I want Spine shatter dive" as a gap closer (sarcasm, sorry, but it's a similar point, signature gap closing move)

Also: get your Tank Issues out of the Healer Forums :P (lol now this is a joke)

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Esuna being a role action as far as I'm concerned did more harm than good. It's always great if you did like... Deltascape 4.0 normal and your healers not only don't have esuna equipped on a role slot, but not even on their hotbar.

Yes this happened.

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Of course it happens. What did you expect? 90% of the time esuna is dead weight. Why would you waste a CR slot on dead weight?

As for the other ~10%... no way to know beforehand if you're new to the content. And it's not like tanks never forget to bring silence, etc.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I'd much rather have this current system than that one. This one allows a degree of choice, as opposed to having a cookie cutter skill option.

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Not really, you're still relatively pigeonholed into taking certain abilities in certain fights. At most you swap out one or 2 but there are undoubtedly "required" role skills.

I have sorta mixed feelings on the whole situation. Things like Protect, it's always been a FF staple ability and on some level I would miss just seeing the icon, even if there wasn't a noticeable difference in damage without it. It's like a comfort blanket of sorts lol. But I can't deny the game would probably be slightly better without it, at least for healers. I think Esuna was fine as a regular skill, too. The only goofy thing before was SCH not having it until much later than WHM/AST.

I personally think they need to look at adding things like smokescreen and shadewalker, which are in a sense "true" role skills for raid utility. Some things should be more spread out, like NIN is great but do they really need all the raid utility for themselves? Same thing with BRD/MCH which they did somewhat address with refresh & TP songs, it makes them too mandatory and unnecessarily enforces a specific comp to aim for. So if they are going to address Role Skills I'd rather see them make raid utilities more evenly spread across jobs and get rid of the niche abilities like Crutch/Erase, foot/leg/head/arm graze, Drain, Break, etc. These moves don't really have much bearing on any sort of relevant content. The one add that needs to be silenced can be taken care of by an OT. Either that or make opportunities to use them more than once per calendar year.

IDK, just my 2 pennies.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

but they are the only ones with a native gcd stun.

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Shield bash hasn't been relevant for a while FYI. Having a stun on the GCD will never be relevant because if it ever was PLD would be a requirement, and given that we now have a role action that stuns (low blow), shield bash is basically worthless. Tempered Will would have been a better example, but even then, WAR has an anti knockback skill too, and I'd rather make plunge a role action and give DRK an anti knockback effect to compensate (just a random idea: make it a dark arts trigger on dark mind).

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Not really, you're still relatively pigeonholed into taking certain abilities in certain fights. At most you swap out one or 2 but there are undoubtedly "required" role skills.

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I know, and thats the part I don't like about this system. To me, the perfect solution would be to have to types of role action. Learned, and optional. Skills like provoke and esuna are learned automatically, and don't need to be chosen, but then the player will choose "bonus" skills that work exactly as role actions do now, and I would like a larger variety of them to make the choice more difficult and meaningful.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Of course it happens. What did you expect? 90% of the time esuna is dead weight. Why would you waste a CR slot on dead weight?.

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Which is a situation that should never have been a thing. Esuna doesn't have to become some all-mighty skill that has to be used in every encounter but it should never have been made optional. So instead of merely having it available the quality of pug healers has actually decreased because things that got cleansed before aren't now.

Instead of it simply being available when it needed to be or is encouraged to be used (i.e. stackable poison on Aiatar, beatable without esuna though) people are not taking it at all. The role skill system is just... not good.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I feel like role actions would be better if we just learned them by level and had them, without having to set them, basically the same as learning a normal ability on a job but shared across all jobs in that role.

E.G. learn esuna at level 5, learned protect at level 10, clerics at 15, etc. etc.

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I like this suggestion a lot as well.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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You got my point, even if it wasn't "relevant". The oGCD was Taken from DRK, who I believe had it on a gcd back in HW? I'm unsure, I didn't pick up the class before Stormblood. I don't tank. I know very little about tanking, but the point is that you want to strip...another skill that's become Iconic to the DRK and give it to PLD. I don't hear my DRK friends nagging about no knockback except for O7s?6s? (the train!). Many could argue that a healer with a rescue is supposed to make up for the lack of knockback protection. it's a never ending circle.

We want classes that are Unique and having taken low Blow (aka the crotch kick) from DRK, I think it takes away from them; and really I don't think giving more triggers to Any Class is a good thing at this point.



Re: getting the skills automatically...well we did...back before Stormblood. yes, certain classes had to CC/CR them, but...you only had five slots then....Yes, only ..what...oh, right 10 choices then...2/3 were required (Protect, SS/E4E, Swiftcast), which gave you two slots for flare items.

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Originally Posted by Saraphin

We want classes that are Unique and having taken low Blow (aka the crotch kick) from DRK, I think it takes away from them; and really I don't think giving more triggers to Any Class is a good thing at this point.

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Heres the thing about unique abilities though, are they really as unique as you hope? Plunge is not unique since overwhelm exists (and yes, your point would have more weight if it didn't) and as for low blow (you really miss low blow??), it's just a stun that is no better or more special than any other stun in the game. By moving these abilities to the role system, it allows the developers more freedom over fight design, i.e. they can make fights where having plunge is an advantage if everyone has access to it, otherwise they would be favouring some jobs over others.

I'll add another angle to my idea though, and that is that in 5.0 and beyond the developers will want to change how the jobs work, and add new skills to keep things fresh. By adding older skills to the role system, it allows you to keep certain skills without having button bloat, and gain new identity through your 5.0 kit. Your post comes off as very reactionary and sounds like "PLD is already god tier and you want to give them my precious DRK skill too?" rather than speculating what this kind of system could be like in a new expansion when all jobs are rebalanced and skillsets are adjusted across the board.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

I feel like role actions would be better if we just learned them by level and had them, without having to set them, basically the same as learning a normal ability on a job but shared across all jobs in that role.

E.G. learn esuna at level 5, learned protect at level 10, clerics at 15, etc. etc.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I like this suggestion a lot as well.

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The great part is that that is exactly what it was implied the system would be when it was first teased back in the runup to SB. No idea why they deviated from that.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Heres the thing about unique abilities though, are they really as unique as you hope? Plunge is not unique since overwhelm exists (and yes, your point would have more weight if it didn't) and as for low blow (you really miss low blow??).

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Personally, yes. Low Blow alongside Reprisal were part of the fast paced-retaliation aspect of the job in HW. Plunge was relatively unique as well before Stormblood.

Also, since Rampart is also a mandatory take for Cross-Role, hopefully they could return the original 20% damage mitigation cooldowns to their respective tanks? For Warrior, they could give Foresight back and make it reduce a flat 20% like Shadowskin and Rampart- or, perhaps a mini-version of their Land Waker LB3. Not the same animation of course, but the same type of aesthetic I think would look awesome.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

Esuna being a role action as far as I'm concerned did more harm than good. It's always great if you did like... Deltascape 4.0 normal and your healers not only don't have esuna equipped on a role slot, but not even on their hotbar.

Yes this happened.

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Or they just forget and 3sec into the fight are like "awww damn.... i forgot" and boolm 3 death

I also did Shinryu yesterday and both healer (i was a healer) forgot about the eventual paralisis. Luckily I was a SCH so I could change my fairy :p
Those poor BLM and RDM