Can we just scrap the idea of Conjurer already?

Short Version: I honestly think that the whole idea behind Conjurer is gone, and that we should just let it go. When I say idea, I'm only referring to the bit that cutscenes refer to often that we are somehow masters of the elements. If I'm not mistaken, the French name for conjurer is very similar to Elementalist in meaning. While the lore is beautiful, it really doesn't sit with the current class anymore. However, I don't want this to degrade into another "OMG SE YOU SCREWED UP THE LORE" thread, or a QQ about how I miss the full elemental wheel. I just want to say that it's time for SE to cut their losses (the beautiful lore that was written) and give Conjurer a background that makes sense.


Reasons:
I was just perusing over Gild's post of the Class actions, and was taken aback by the description of Conjurer.

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

Conjurer & White Mage Action List
Conjurers are a casting class known for their specialization in healing and defense-enhancing magic. They also possess some skill with elemental magic, granting them a degree of offensive ability, and can put single targets to sleep, providing a valuable source of control. White mages are powerful casters whose talents enable them to fully restore the HP of all party members in a mere instant. Beyond healing, they can also apply their MP towards attack magic, granting them extremely powerful offensive abilities.

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What? I realized a lot's changed since launch, but that's kind of... not what the lore says. Quoting the official site,

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Conjury calls upon elemental forces present in nature and concentrates them to a potency at which spells can be weaved. Through practiced meditation on the essences of creation, conjurers draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings. A wand or cane made from unworked wood is then utilized to focus the aether until it manifests as the desired spell. The seat of the Conjurers' Guild lies at the Stillglade Fane in Gridania, where the voices of Eorzea's elementals are said to be most powerful.

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Given Gild's post, it seems that Conjurers no longer command the elements, but simply "posses some skill with elemental magic" and devote their lives to healing and enhancing magic. Though this healing/defense magic could be created by the methods outlined above, I think we all know that wasn't the intention of the lore team pre-launch.

I'd hoped (and still do) that White Mage would only be one path that could be chosen from Conjurer, and that we could also choose to embrace our more elemental side--that could still happen, and I hope it does. The truth for now, though, is that Conjurer is no longer an elemental mage, but pre-White Mage. Aero was a White Magic spell early in the series, and I don't remember Stone being anything but Petrify before XI (correct me if I'm wrong, because I probably am). Giving those two spells to Conjurer hardly make it any different than, like I said, pre-White Mage.

I'm alright with Conjurer being the new WHM, because I realize that we needed a healing class. But they've made their choice. The problem is that my Conjurer quests don't involve erecting powerful wards around Gridania (though my GC quests do...) or healing the sick. They instead focus on learning to listen to the elementals and wildings. Apparently only earth/wind/water(?) elementals will talk to me anymore, though.. We're supposed to draw in energy around us, not the energy inside people. That was supposed to be Thaumaturge. I don't care what happens, I just think we can all agree that something needs done for 2.0

Is there something spefic in the game quests that points to Conjurers being the only elemental cannons? As far as I've noticed they're just people who communicate with the elements. But then again, I haven't done all the CNJ related quests to know, which is why I'm asking. Would the game lore feel that broken, if you knew nothing about the old CNJ abilities?

At this point, I don't think you should be so hung up on the old (official site) descriptions of the classes and just accept the new direction. I hope they update the character creation screen with the new descriptions for coherence, so that people don't have mixed expectations based on outdated information.

The easiest way to correct this Lore problem is have the Conjs lose some of their favored relationship with the elementals. Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

The easiest way to correct this Lore problem is have the Conjs lose some of their favored relationship with the elementals. Problem solved.

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And to change the flash site description as well.

I agree with Mychael that there are lore-class inconsistencies and that they should be attended to but it doesn't need a major overhaul just some tweaks here and there.

There are a lot more inconsistencies in the class quests themselves, like NPCs instructing you to use the appropriate element to defeat each elemental... 7 of them. Right. WE ONLY HAVE 2, SE!

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

There are a lot more inconsistencies in the class quests themselves, like NPCs instructing you to use the appropriate element to defeat each elemental... 7 of them. Right. WE ONLY HAVE 2, SE!

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That's pretty funny. That would need to be changed as well.

OP, why should we rebuild a perfectly good class around your desires, because you feel it doesn't mtch the lore. Especially when your copy cating a copy cat who copied a copy cat by making the 5,286th thread on the same topic.

Doesn't it just make more sense for them to adjust the lore. Especially since we have already had devs responses to this topic and they clarified the solution to come.

Not to mention that conjurers still fit perfectly into there class description as well.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

Doesn't it just make more sense for them to adjust the lore. Especially since we have already had devs responses to this topic and they clarified the solution to come.

Not to mention that conjurers still fit perfectly into there class description as well.

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Changing the lore is what needs to be done, yes. Though IMO that would mean scrapping the whole Gridanian storyline (INB4 "who plays that one anyway"). A much more logical solution would have been allowing CNJ to either branch into WHM or BLM, while letting THM branch out to ... idk, RDM and BLU? Instead they changed the whole image of a class and screwed up it's lore as well as the story of one of the city-states.

Though that has been beaten to death in several long, whinny threads on fire so.... let's just say they need to change the lore.

Granted I avoid talking about lore on these forums since I know how badly this can go, but if I had to venture a guess I think the lore will have a reset.

SE is resetting the world, in 2.0, and lots of in game content with it. Yoshi has already shown the maps for 2.0. Lots of the NPCs and quest will probably go with that. The current lore for the mage classes does not match up at all, not even remotely. The main story quest in U'ldah has you talking to the THM guild about communing with the dead and resurrection.... but now THM throw elemental nukes. So I agree the mage lore probably needs a reboot and I think it probably will get it.

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Originally Posted by Coglin

OP, why should we rebuild a perfectly good class around your desires, because you feel it doesn't mtch the lore. Especially when your copy cating a copy cat who copied a copy cat by making the 5,286th thread on the same topic.

Doesn't it just make more sense for them to adjust the lore. Especially since we have already had devs responses to this topic and they clarified the solution to come.

Not to mention that conjurers still fit perfectly into there class description as well.

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Wait a second. Did you even read what I said, Coglin? I didn't say anything about "rebuilding a class." The idea behind conjurer was a mage that commanded the elements. That's not the case any more. So I think we need to stop trying to have this two-fold deal where Conjurer's lore says we master the elements and Conjurer itself is just White Mage with Stone.

Ordinarily I appreciate your posts, Coglin, so please don't let me down with personal attacks about how I'm asking for a class redesign based around my expectations--I'd much prefer a post about your expectations, and how they differ from mine. If you could link to the dev posts it would be greatly appreciated because not all of us have twenty-four hours a day to read every forum post, and while the Search function is there, it's a lot easier to make the 5,286th on the same topic and eat the flames that come with it. ^^

Adjusting the lore would be easier than simply scrapping the entire thing, but it will be difficult to do. The entire Gridania storyline largely depends on the Conjurers' abilities to communicate with the elementals, so even the minor adjustments we're talking about would seem to have major implications--Twin Adder quests, Main Story quests, sidequests, just the dialogue from random NPCs--it almost seems like it would be easier to make Conjurer (and the associated guild) not playable, and just change the name of the playable class.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

Wait a second. Did you even read what I said, Coglin?
Sure did, and it read to me that you want CNJ changed to have all elements as DD nukes again.
I didn't say anything about "rebuilding a class." The idea behind conjurer was a mage that commanded the elements.
Sure read like you did to me. Your post appeared to say you wanted them to adjust CNJ to have all elements as a DD nuke so it fit with your take on the lore.
That's not the case any more.
How do they not have comand ove rthe elements, just because they are not all DD nukes doesn't mean the do not command them. For example, they are the only class in the game that can shield you against them.
So I think we need to stop trying to have this two-fold deal where Conjurer's lore says we master the elements and Conjurer itself is just White Mage with Stone.
The class discription is certainly accurate to CNJ as they are now. Again, you appear to believe the only way to command an element is to use it as a DD ability. As of now they can cast earth, wind, fire, and lightening as DD spells, and are the only class that can shield against elemental attacks.
Ordinarily I appreciate your posts, Coglin, so please don't let me down with personal attacks about how I'm asking for a class redesign based around my expectations-
Interesting, I post my opinion, and it varies from yours so, you want to fly off the handle on the defensive at me and make accusatins of personal attacks? Okay wise guy, what did I say, specefically, that you interpereted as a personal insult or attack in any way?
-I'd much prefer a post about your expectations, and how they differ from mine. If you could link to the dev posts it would be greatly appreciated because not all of us have twenty-four hours a day to read every forum post,
Well wise arse, I don't have that kind of time either. I would love to link the post for you, but it sure reads to me that your making some inflamittory comment there with the 24 hr remark. So feel free to find it. I have 5 kids, and a wife 5 of which play this game, they tend to keep me updates, as I work 12 hour rotating swing shifts.
and while the Search function is there, it's a lot easier to make the 5,286th on the same topic and eat the flames that come with it. ^^
Its easier then to look through the titles of 2 pages of threads in the CNJ section? It took me only a few seconds to scroll down the first page and then to do the same on the second to find a few thread titles that tiped me off, but there are a few of the threads on the first page that vere heavily into this conversation. They are very helpfull to read reguardless, but several of them clear alot of this up. I am surprised you had not read them recently anyway.
Adjusting the lore would be easier than simply scrapping the entire thing, but it will be difficult to do.
Harder then redoing the class quest and redesigning the entire world and all its ones as well as implimenting a new client and graphics drive? why would they do all of that and not take a few minutes to change several lines of text for the sake of the overall lore?
The entire Gridania storyline largely depends on the Conjurers' abilities to communicate with the elementals, so even the minor adjustments we're talking about would seem to have major implications-
What do we have in game that has changes that makes you believe CNJ cannot communicate with the elements??
-Twin Adder quests, Main Story quests, sidequests, just the dialogue from random NPCs--it almost seems like it would be easier to make Conjurer (and the associated guild) not playable, and just change the name of the playable class.
Not sure I follow you here. The class is conjurer, not elementalist.

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Mhmm green.

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Originally Posted by Mychael

Short Version: I honestly think that the whole idea behind Conjurer is gone, and that we should just let it go. While the lore is beautiful, it really doesn't sit with the current class anymore. However, I don't want this to degrade into another "OMG SE YOU SCREWED UP THE LORE" thread, or a QQ about how I miss the full elemental wheel. I just want to say that it's time for SE to cut their losses (the beautiful lore that was written) and give Conjurer a background that makes sense.

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I want conjurers to get their DD back? Check the bolded sentences. It's been there from the beginning. There's one part of my OP that says I wish they'd left Conjurer and Thaumaturge alone. It's parenthetical and a smaller font size. I also said that I hope White Mage will only be one path that a Conjurer can choose and that I hoped their elemental side could still be embraced. Those were/are my hopes, and nothing more. They have absolutely nothing to do with what's going on. I included them to provide something with which I could contrast the reality that Conjurer is now just White Mage under a different name and with an off-topic storyline.

And while we don't have anything in-game that suggests Conjurers can no longer commune with the elementals, I bolded the parts of Gildrien's post that described conjurers.

And as for personal attacks, does this ring a bell? "Especially when your copy cating a copy cat who copied a copy cat by making the 5,286th thread on the same topic." It seems to have little/nothing to do with why my OP is/isn't valid. :(

I'd rather them start over than just edit a bit here and a bit there to make it fit, but if it can be pulled off without seeming inconsistent like it does now, more power to them.

Well im sure there saving all the lore changes for for 2.0. As they have stated that alot of the current quest will be revized for 2.0. But from what ive seen so far the ppl @ s.e dont seem to put alot of thought into things.

Its a personal attack because I pointed out that you made a thread that was made time and time before?

Are you claiming this topic is original?

My personal opinion of you, or this thread and my disagreeance with you on the topic have nothing to do with my distaste for people remaking threads that have been remade because they either are too lazy to scroll down to add to the already existing conversation, or believe they are so special they deserve to make a new thread just to project there opinion. None the less, how is stating that which is fact me attacking you? We already have enough junk to wade through here to keep up with the threads we want. When posters needlessly add more clutter, I will complain. If you chose to take that as a personal attack based on your original post, thats your error not mine.

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Originally Posted by lenethlockheed

Well im sure there saving all the lore changes for for 2.0. As they have stated that alot of the current quest will be revized for 2.0. But from what ive seen so far the ppl @ s.e dont seem to put alot of thought into things.

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I also tried to inform him of this, and he threw some wierd comment at me about being on here 24/7 or some derogitory intended comment of that nature, then went on to ask me to link it for him (yeah, I know, real interesting methodology right?)

Conjurers can still communicate with elementals without necessarily being able to use all the elements. Also like I've mentioned in other threads, CNJ having the natural/forest-y elements Wind, Earth, and (according to the devs) Water fits thematically and could be handwaved by having CNJs be trained in Gridania where those elements are most prevalent and the easiest to attune to. The biggest discrepency for me is the whole "defeat all 6 elementals" puzzle/battle which will probably be redone.

i agree here, for conjurers SE should change the lore about them and in my op. they shouldnt get any elemental attack, i would agree more with light for attack spells and when they become whm have a spell Holy and all the others that WHM had in other Final fantasy games. That would correct the path SE gave to conjurers now.

Why can't we all just agree that the lore is completely broken right now relative to the gameplay and it needed to be done because the game tanked?

One step at a time, people...

This is probably my fault for naming this thread as I did, but I was not ever tying to say to fix it pre-2.0.

What I was trying to say was that, rather than stretching the idea and letting it "slide by"--which, admittedly, it does right now because of earth/wind/water--I'd like it better if they started over with something completely new.

I don't really see too much inconsistency, as it says Conjurers use "elemental forces present in nature." From what I gather, that would include the more natural elements in the spellbook, like earth and wind (water would fit in really well too!). So thinking about it in that way, Conjurers getting Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Stoneskin and the like are pretty natural in that sense. Spells like Fire/Blizzard/Thunder are more manipulated elements, and thus seem left out for another class to use.

That's not to say that they don't have to rework some of the lore still, but it shouldn't be too big a difference. In any case, I wonder how THM's lore and background is, now that they have Fire/Blizzard/Thunder..

Also, jobs are meant to give classes some specialization and there may be other jobs for each class in the future. Cutting down Conjurer to mere pre-White Mage would just make adding another, future job a little more awkward to implement, especially if it may focus on the "natural" elemental side of Conjurer! (If so, I'd love to see Geomancer come from Conjurer, but that's a story saved for some other place/time)

Conjurers will probably be more than just a stepping stone to white mage. Both descriptions in the OP can coincide with each other and still make sense. They are in-tune with nature and with that same token, be in-tune with all living things, elemental or adventurer, for instance. (Things involving aether, perhaps?) They can defend themselves with that power and also give back and heal with that power. However, they aren't necessarily more powerful in either area. Which leaves it open to specialize into white mage and maybe a more offensive future job. You can say there are inconsistencies, but inconsistencies with what? Just what you expect Conjurer to be? Again, both descriptions can be of the same thing, from how I read it. It's the same for what people expect Thaumaturge to be too. There is no telling how/when SE will fill the gaps in these classes, but I'm sure they will. I don't think either class needs to be changed with what they do now, though. And I know, I, personally enjoyed the quests, storyline, and gameplay of Conjurer regardless of this.

P.S. I really like how conjurer received the nature based elements and thaumaturge received more of the destruction based elements. It's almost like lore without words to show you more of what they as classes are intended for.

Agreed, the lore and quests behind CNJ need to be scrapped or at least heavily marginalized, with the brunt of class story focused on WHM.

Our lore for cnj is going to change with 2.0. Just be patient, this has been discussed to death with THM as well lol.

I love my CNJ. I have a hard time playing other classes lol. I like having the lore. Im looking forwards to it fitting together better tho. My problem is tho, since I'm already LVL 50, all class quests and main story done, when 2.0 lands do I miss out on the new back story and lore?

Depends if they reset the quest line too. If they do I think would be able to the the class quest lines again.

Well, as others have said, with 2.0 comes new lore that will 'make more sense' That said, I must say, after living with the CNJ/THM changes over the past couple months, overall I REALLY like them...esp CNJ (which surprises me a little as I was solidly in camp CNJ should be BLM/WHM make THM something else). But I think CNJ with a little rewriting, will actually fit into Gridania and it's 'Elemental Worship' very well. Afterall, CNJ's are NOT trying to commune with the Elementals to destroy, but rather to heal and protect. CNJ functions more like a Celtic Druid/Priest etc. So CNJ's learn to respect the nature and elementals around them, and also have learned how to harness their power for protection and healing.

The 'then why do they get a couple Elemental Nukes? thing is well, one, for practicality (not lore CNJ needed to damage deal somehow) and two, the 2 nukes we kept are potentially as protective and healing as they are destructive(Air-breath of life/tornado Stone, armor/quake). This could explain why CNJ kept these 2 nukes instead of getting 2 new ones etc.

And yes, while I get 'well the storyline is not there yet,' or even more so, how if you were a new player ranking up CNJ without knowing the class could cast all the Elemental spells less than 3 months ago that some of the Class storyline quests could be downright confusing, I can already see and feel in-game how they are changing this guild a bit to fit more the 'tree-hugger, elemental priest' role.

For example: while the exact quest to unlock BLM on THM is yet to be seen (as are it's exact requirements), I'd would not be surprised if the reason it requires THM30/CNJ15 is in fact because the storyline revolves around a THM who in seeking more destructive power, goes to study with the CNJ guild to learn what they know of the elementals. Maybe this THM is sneaky about it...say's he wants to become a protector of the forrest etc, (Gridanians are afterall, suspicious of outsiders) and instead uses their knowledge in a twisted, destructive way...to the dismay of the peaceful guild. Again, this is speculation, as the story line for BLM is not yet out, but just making a point that SE can and will more than likely somehow tie it all together...we are just in a weird limbo 'between two games atm'.

Lastly, keep in mind CNJ is a base class that once the game is further along in development, and we have many many more quests, and more jobs to unlock will make more sense in the scheme of things. After all, it is plausible that those who already speak with the Elementals will one day learn how to Summon them, and possibly other mobs, on command (summoner).

But honestly, I am eager to see how they make it all work, as they have finally made CNJ play the way I thought it would when I set foot in Eorzea for the first time outside Gridania with my Weathered Cane, on the beginning of this very rocky, uphill adventure known as FFXIV. The class is dynamic and fun now. (Storyline can be re-written)

Yes, Im really looking foward to the new lore. I like the way both classes are developing. I write a theory about how the new distribution of the spells could fit the lore.

Aye. Change the Conjurer Lore please.

Although I agree with you from a Lore perspective, it all really lends itself for better gameplay, which I agree with even more.

The way I see it, the lore's not completely devoid of sense now that the elemental magic's been distributed between Conjurer and Thaumaturge. If you think about it, Conjurers still have access to Earth, Air and Water (through Cure) elemental magic, which are the steadier forces of Nature. It's expected to have soil under your feet. The wind blows and water flows on all occasions, it's Nature's song. The elements available to the Conjurer are 100% in-line with that of a mage in-tune with Nature's forces, able to listen to the calls of Nature's spirits.

THM's newly-acquired elemental magic revolves around more extreme, unsteady forces of nature, namely Lightning, Fire and Ice. It's unusual for lightning to strike on command, it's unlikely for fire to spontaneously light up, and freeze doesn't normally happen in such a short time. These are unnatural, occult manipulations of more destructive natural forces.

And yes, Conjurer = Élémentaliste in French, while Thaumaturge = Occultiste in French.

The only thing that REALLY bothers me with the distribution of elemental attack spells between CNJ and THM is the total disappearance of the Water spell. Flans change their elemental weakness/resistance whenever you hit them with the spell they're weak to, so while Earth and Wind are not part of the same vulnerability triplet (you will always be able to use one or the other at normal efficiency regardless of enemy weakness/resistance), once the Flan becomes weak against Water, there's absolutely nothing you can do to shift their elemental status anymore, all the spells in the game will either hit normal, hit low, or heal the damn thing, and it will NEVER shift to anything else.

Give us back Water, damnit.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

There are a lot more inconsistencies in the class quests themselves, like NPCs instructing you to use the appropriate element to defeat each elemental... 7 of them. Right. WE ONLY HAVE 2, SE!

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Lol hope Bay or Rurikki sees this one lol...so fail SE ;\

As far as the lore is concerned, and in a nutshell, I believe Conjurers had to ability to converse, understand and interpret the elements of Gridania. It doesn't mean they need to have fully borrowed their powers in order to be as they were before the class reform. And as Inzoum said, it's largely dependent on their role rather than the elements they control. Naturey-elements are what characterises the Conjurer for me, and they have followed that perfectly. As for the lore inconsistencies....beating a dead horse, wait for 2.0.

They're probably saving water magic for Arcanist.

Just let me keep Magic Evasion Down and I'll be happy...

I see no lore plothole here, you people only make them up.

Yes, conjurer did used to exist on the basis of all elemental magic.

Just because they don't anymore doesn't mean that they can not communicate with the elementals.

Conjury is now attunement with nature. The elements are what comprise nature

See the logic here?

As far as I remember they can use fire and thunder as well.

In addition, they've made it so CNJ is a play style and not PVP duel useless.

A conjuruer will be able to choose more than one path IN THE FUTURE.

Right now everyone relies on CNJ purley as a healer, sometimes if you have enough, one can fal back and DD, and they would be effcient. CNJ Rocks cactuar parties as a DD because using stone exploits elemental weakness hard core. A thaumaturge may also gain the ability to use stone

Now image if we had Geomancer, where terrain and weather are your skills, akin to stone and aero.
Geomancer would maximize on your offensive abilities.

What about a summoner, surely a pet class's secondary skills will allow for all you need for a summon's control. This type of CNJ can heal or DD, either way they've got a pet smackin stuff up front. In addition a pet brings thier own buffs to the table. Making summoner a great for capitalizing summoners support ability.

So what we have is

Specialization on Magic Damage, Support, and Healing

Does it get any better?