Lackluster Mechanics and/or Leveling: Dark Arts, RDM AoE, Aetherpact

(The above are just examples.)

Which job toolkit or trait mechanics do you find the most lackluster at level cap and/or unfulfilling over the leveling experience?

How would you improve them?

Umbral Hearts. I've often advocated an extreme solution in making them useful for ST gameplay by allowing them to fully discount the price of affected Fire spells (allowing for a bonus of three Fire IVs instead of the one they currently provide) but the fact is, even with my unpopular solution, Umbral Hearts have been a sore topic for other BLMs that needs solving, partially by allowing Freeze to generate them, and for them to have a better effect.

Most lackluster at 70? WHM lilies. They basically do nothing. Needs an overhaul.
Most lackluster while leveling? MCH heat gauge. No control for Overheating, but not Overheating is a dps loss. Cooldown needs to be available when the gauge is gained.

WHM liles by far. Seriously? Very light CD reduction as a job mechanic?
And you don't even get them by playing normally. No decent healer sits there and spams cure on a target.

I'd say Lilies are useless since they are unlocked and I won't be surprised if they'll be reworked in w/e is the next expansion.
In fact i'm calling a rework on WHM and DRK (that was kinda hinted last LL)

edit: as for how I would improve them? I dunno honestly, they could scrap the confession stacks making plenary indulgence use lilies instead while also adding a ST heal option and call it a day
oh also making them proc from other heals too ofc

Oh boy, here we go again

AST:
Lightspeed trait, it's just plain useless
Time Dilatation, too reliant on Diurnal Stance and barely effective when it comes to increasing card duration. (it's only really good in 4man, +15sec on a 5% card is rather useless)
Draw cd not ticking unless the card is spent. It's extremeley annoying to be forced to use the card asap otherwise the cd is ticking


BLM:
Scathe, no explaination needed I'm sure
AoE rotation is clunky. The proposed Freeze rework to be an AoE BlizzIII giving umbral heart would solve the issue
Enochian button being useless once cast
LeyLine duration is plain too long, the fact that they had to add Between the line to compensate somewhat supports my point
Having to cast FireI is annoying, you're hurling tiny exploding sun and every 3-4 cast you need to shoot a spark


Tank in general:
I hate the fact that they're subpar dps with defensive cd
I'd like tanking (damage mitigation) to be more active.
The Blackest Night is by far my favorite skill in the tank department.
I'd like to have a greater control over how tanky I am and I'd like raid to value more mitigation over dps. But with boss hitting like wet noodles (spare tank bursters) it's not gonna happen anytime soon

DRK:
DA spam
Only one combo

PLD:
Requiesast + HolyStar spam, like really? Who thought that was a fun mechanic?
Having to cast for the Star/Heal is just plain weird, I'd rather those to be abilities and requiesast to be removed and changed to something new

MCH
Wildfire, it's just an aweful skill. They should at least make it last longer (like 10sec) and affect only a set amount of skills
Overheat being weird, sometime good sometime bad
Turrets being the borringness they are. Seriously I thought I was playing a MACHINist

SMN
side note:I really like the direction they're heading with the transe and bahamut (not considering bahamiut clunkiness in this statement)
The summoner doesn't feel "summony" enough. I think I'd prefer to have more smaller summons (like demibahamut) that comes down and do some burst (it's not like the pet are doing anything interesting atm beside AA and applying a debuff every2min)
Eatherflow cd is too long compared to the time it takes to burn through our stacks. There's always this awefully long and boring 40sec where you're just waiting for the CD to come back.

DRG
10 skills combo is what it is
Not enough jumps
SpineShatter dive granting a Mirage Dive is dumb imo, I shouldn't have to use my movement skill in my core rotation. (Especially when it has such a long cd)

NIN
Dream Within a Dream and Duality are utherly boring (espeically the former) and should be reworked
Hyoton needs some sort of rework, most option are already taken, I once proposed it would buff our Throw Drager to give NIN a option to keep good uptime when away from boss
Ninki was a nice addition but I want the next spells to improve furthermore on the Mudra (which is the core identity of the job IMO)

RDM:
I find the job overall very good with few flaws (not talking about number or raid viability here)
My only complain is the pace of the job. To me RDM should be that quick caster opposed to the slow yet hard hitting BLM
I would like them to make that verthunder/aero have a RECAST time of 1.5sec so that once they're cast you're not standing still like a moron for 2.3sec (the fact that we have so many instant makes this especially annoying visually speaking).

WHM
Lilies uselessness
Plenary Indulgence needs its duration to be increase to 30sec, when do we actually need 450 AoE potency heal after 3 medica?

...I'm just gonna focus on the BLM part of Sylvain's post, since that's the job I'm most experienced with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

BLM:
Scathe, no explaination needed I'm sure

---

Certainly not, but it does help with tagging monsters for chaining in Eureka, so it's not entirely garbage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Enochian button being useless once cast

---

Not sure what they'd do with it (since Foul needs to be a separate button since it's designed to be able to be used even outside of Enochian if you proc it)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

LeyLine duration is plain too long, the fact that they had to add Between the line to compensate somewhat supports my point

---

https://i.imgflip.com/skw39.jpg

I'm... honestly not sure how to take this. Like. You do realize most personal buffs are around the 30s/24s mark anyway, right? What does this point even mean?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Having to cast FireI is annoying, you're hurling tiny exploding sun and every 3-4 cast you need to shoot a spark

---

Not to sound like an butt, but this is called nuance. If you could just hurl Fire IVs all day, it'd be the same exact thing as pre-HW Black Mage, and be a braindead job. Do we REALLY want this?

Any of the 3rd eye nonsense for SAM... the damage/heal/defence seems totally unnecessary... they are far to weak to make any difference plus needing to be hit and THEN spending kenki on top of it... why?

MNK: GL ramp up even with the recent "qol" changes just made the ramp up itself trivial and unnecessary. Chakras need more depth than RNG for (still) one skill.

The way I see it. They should give more meaning to MNK loops rather than just a GL refresh. And really work on chakras as a resource with different options rather than TFC spam.

A lot of jobs in general need the same approach they did to BRD. Really go back to its early job levels and see how they can improve what exists or rework them.

As a BLM, I'd like Blizzard 4 to do something other than generate Umbral Hearts, maybe like a 10%,15s magic vuln on the target or something. Remove the damage buff from Enochian to compensate and turn that into a trait, nothing changes Foul since everything is tied to being in AF/UI anyway.

I'd also want some use out of Freeze, I like the idea of it being just an AoE Blizzard 4, maybe make it an upgrade from the largely useless Blizzard 2. Traiting Between the Lines so that it and Leylines share a button, similar to how Fell Cleave/Inner Beast work.

Other than those changes (except the blizzard 4 vuln thing, that's pretty major), BLM feels like a complete kit. Leylines duration is fine, it lasts a full fire > ice > foul rotation and part of the fun/skill in using it is knowing when and where the best places are to use them.

"AST:
Lightspeed trait, it's just plain useless."

Er... not anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

I'd like Blizzard 4 to do something other than generate Umbral Hearts, maybe like a 10%,15s magic vuln on the target or something. Remove the damage buff from Enochian to compensate and turn that into a trait. [ . . . ]

I'd also want some use out of Freeze [ . . . ] maybe make it an upgrade from the largely useless Blizzard 2. Traiting Between the Lines so that it and Leylines share a button, similar to how Fell Cleave/Inner Beast work.

---

So drop any interesting gameplay and challenge? Rolling the Enoch damage bonus into BlizzIV makes it super boring. If you mean the Enoch damage is a trait and BlizzIV gives that debuff uh, no, super OP.

Agreed that BlizzII and Freeze need to be reworked together; I like the idea of an upgrade like ThunderI->III/II->IV but it needs to work within AoE rather than parallel.

Any Enoch changes are a problem because design wants it available for emergency refresh (mentioned by devs)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

.
I'm... honestly not sure how to take this. Like. You do realize most personal buffs are around the 30s/24s mark anyway, right? What does this point even mean?

Not to sound like an butt, but this is called nuance. If you could just hurl Fire IVs all day, it'd be the same exact thing as pre-HW Black Mage, and be a braindead job. Do we REALLY want this?

---

They are, but most of them don't require you to stand still for the said duration.
Also, most buff have a 60sec CD which aligns with other buff. Ley Line doesn't.
I'd rather have it on a 60sec cd with a shorter duration.

Regarding FireI, it's more of a visual issue than a gameplay one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seraphor

"AST:
Lightspeed trait, it's just plain useless."

Er... not anymore.

---

Personally I still think it is.

LightSpeed doesn't increase your dps, it makes you save mana and allow higher mobility.
Now you can either use it on CD and save most of your mana on MaleficIII or keep it for an heavy AoE phase and cut in half your spending on Helios
If you do it while you're spamming MaleficIII (like most of the time), you'll save up to 1500mana. Which is the mana you'd save from casting 2 AoE heal.

Prior to 4.3, LightSpeed had 150s cd, so you could reduce its cd by up to 30sec by casting essential dignity on cd. Dropping it to 120s the baseline cd for 4.3
With a baseline cd of 120 you can proc your trait at most twice. So Lightspeed will end up with a 100sec cd.

Now, I'm not saying Lightspeed is a bad cd in 4.3, far from that. But unlike SCH with the Etherflow cd reduction trait, we don't especially need to have Lightspeed always on cd. It's not a Draw, it's not Sleeve, it's a mp management cd. So to get the most out it, it must be used at the right time.

Using both Lightspeed and Essential Dignity on CD is hardly a good thing unless you master the encounter to the point these skill become irrelevant.
Therefor, anyone on progression keeping their cd for utilitary purpose will have a very small benefit of this trait.

So this is why I think this trait is plain bad
15sec on Eatherflow is good, it's the bread and butter of SCH most powerful skills
Lilies don't require CD to proc and affect plenty of skills (I'm not saying the really good, just that it's not entirely useless)
20sec on a mana saver if you spam one of your few abilities is plain bad. The problem isn't that we can reduce lightspeed cd, it's the way we achieve this. Lilies has the same issue, it's not like lilies are totally bad, it's that the way you get them isn't especially good.

Machinist in general, you get the core skill of the kit at 38 but because of the action rework you aren’t going to have enough oGCDs to make using it have any oomph. Between level 40 and 52 you receive no skills worth a damn in single target, so all you’re doing is the basic RNG combo. The skill you get at 52 introduces the job gauge but you have no way to interface with it till level 64 despite overheating at the proper time being critical to properly Wildfiring (Imagine if Bard didn’t get pitch perfect till level 64 and couldn’t use any other songs unless they started with Wanderer’s, that’s how asinine this is). Then once you get to max level, your reward is one of the strictest most ping dependent rotations in the game.

If you ever wonder why there’s so few machinists, it’s probably the leveling experience. The job is the most miserable in that regard of any in the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

If you ever wonder why there’s so few machinists, it’s probably the leveling experience. The job is the most miserable in that regard of any in the game.

---

I couldn't agree more

about lightspeed will it really save mp now? Considering how now you can use it as a dps cd during movment to continue casting while relocating

Well it all depends what you value more, à few more malefic or 3~4k mana (assuming you use it on expensive spell)

If the fight is on farm more malefic wouldn't hurt, but if your still learning the fight and have to use instant rez almost every min, more malefic will hardly help you save the day

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

They are, but most of them don't require you to stand still for the said duration.
Also, most buff have a 60sec CD which aligns with other buff. Ley Line doesn't.
I'd rather have it on a 60sec cd with a shorter duration.

---

A 60s cooldown would be wonderful, but YOU WOULD BREAK BLACK MAGE WITH A SHORTER DURATION TO LEYLINES. You will break their openers in half because we need that casting speed to get out our full 8-Fire IV opener, and to properly align our Fouls. Messing with this is a bad idea.

So what if you can't move out of our Ley Lines right? You can STILL DODGE OR USE MANAWARD. If you're targetted by an AoE, and you neither Manaward or dodge, that's on you. Between the Lines and Aetherial Manipulation are your friends in this regard, especially with the removal of slidecasting and the buff to our teleports' animation locks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Not sure what they'd do with [Enochian button] (since Foul needs to be a separate button since it's designed to be able to be used even outside of Enochian if you proc it)

---

The Enochian button should become Blizzard IV. While we're at it, Leylines button should become Between the Lines.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Machinist in general...

If you ever wonder why there’s so few machinists, it’s probably the leveling experience. The job is the most miserable in that regard of any in the game.

---

I feel like DRK could give it a run for it's misery money, but yeah, leveling those two were far more painful than any of the others. (Save maybe AST, but only because my internet likes to auto-spend Draw off a single button press queued a second earlier.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

A 60s cooldown would be wonderful, but YOU WOULD BREAK BLACK MAGE WITH A SHORTER DURATION TO LEYLINES. You will break their openers in half because we need that casting speed to get out our full 8-Fire IV opener, and to properly align our Fouls. Messing with this is a bad idea.

So what if you can't move out of our Ley Lines right? You can STILL DODGE OR USE MANAWARD. If you're targetted by an AoE, and you neither Manaward or dodge, that's on you. Between the Lines and Aetherial Manipulation are your friends in this regard, especially with the removal of slidecasting and the buff to our teleports' animation locks.

---

I have to agree. Too many people simplify duration per recast times as just that, when the duration itself matters not at all; the breakpoint the combination of potency/percentile and duration is what matters, and proportionately exchanging either of those for a decrease in recast time is not necessarily a proportionate exchange in power, and far less likely an beneficial change in gameplay.

That said, I'd be perfectly happy with Enochian becoming a trait that automatically activates after generating Astral Fire or Umbral Ice. The strength of that trait is then purposed towards mitigating costs of movement (for functionality) or exaggerating them (for identity/niche), such as by adding a bonus upon element swap to decrease the breakpoint for situational efficiency of shortened burst phases or rushed regen phases or by giving an accumulating bonus to damage over the phase's duration.

And in the meantime, (Enochian, if not traited and) B4 and F4, and LL and BtL can each share a key, no?

I won't pretend I know something I don't, if in fact having a shorter duration would mess up the opener too much and end up being a dps loss then I withdraw what I said.

Regarding the button merge, it'd be nice, maybe next xpac as we'll have new skill

Overheat and MCH rotation in general. I mained MCH in HW. It's honestly been ruined with the SB changes. Especially with the abilities it has now being clunky (Flamethrower) and changes causing ping reliance and annoyance. Like wtf Gauss Barrel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fytayn

So drop any interesting gameplay and challenge? Rolling the Enoch damage bonus into BlizzIV makes it super boring. If you mean the Enoch damage is a trait and BlizzIV gives that debuff uh, no, super OP.

Agreed that BlizzII and Freeze need to be reworked together; I like the idea of an upgrade like ThunderI->III/II->IV but it needs to work within AoE rather than parallel.

Any Enoch changes are a problem because design wants it available for emergency refresh (mentioned by devs)

---

What is interesting and challenging about pressing an off global 1s into a fight and never touching it again?

I actually really enjoy the Third Eye mechanic, it makes me more involved in fight outside just dodging AoE's. Also adds a third(lol) layer of complexity outside of Sen and Kenki. Especially at the highest skill speed cap, when you can only get 1 oGCD between GCD's, you get a split second to factor in whether you can get a Third Eye off by the next AoE and profit from the Seigan generated. Plus the enmity dump on Merciful Eyes is a good "Oh shit!" button when tanks start hitting the floor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

What is interesting and challenging about pressing an off global 1s into a fight and never touching it again?

---

It's possible to drop it depending on the phase/mechanics, so this is kinda wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

It's possible to drop it depending on the phase/mechanics, so this is kinda wrong.

---

Youre telling me that maintaining Enochian, and by proxy AF/UI, is that challenging and interesting on those very rare encounters where you can't help but drop it (Byakko is the only thing that comes to mind), when Transpose exists? Lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Youre telling me that maintaining Enochian, and by proxy AF/UI, is that challenging and interesting on those very rare encounters where you can't help but drop it (Byakko is the only thing that comes to mind), when Transpose exists? Lol

---

There are mechanics that WILL forcefully drop your Enochian, specifically, phase shifts that have stuns (Coming to mind are Catastrophe (if mistimed) the aforementioned Byakko, Shinryu, and the newest Trial) or mount-based mechanics (A/AS2, O/OS6 are the ones that come to mind at the moment).

They're few and far between, but they exist. Just like how White Mage has a specific utility in God Kefka because it has Cure III.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

There are mechanics that WILL forcefully drop your Enochian, specifically, phase shifts that have stuns (Coming to mind are Catastrophe (if mistimed) the aforementioned Byakko, Shinryu, and the newest Trial) or mount-based mechanics (A/AS2, O/OS6 are the ones that come to mind at the moment).

They're few and far between, but they exist. Just like how White Mage has a specific utility in God Kefka because it has Cure III.

---

All of which mean absolutely nothing because the cooldown on Enochian is ridiculously short. If it was longer I would be agreeing with you, but the fact is that any sort of forced loss doesn't mean anything because Enochian has practically no cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

All of which mean absolutely nothing because the cooldown on Enochian is ridiculously short. If it was longer I would be agreeing with you, but the fact is that any sort of forced loss doesn't mean anything because Enochian has practically no cooldown.

---

Enochian has no cooldown, but you still lose out on a Foul by having to do those mechanics, which is very much a loss.

In general: don't let raid-wide AoE damage interrupt spell casts unless it's a knockback. When playing RDM, there are times where things like Diffractive Plasma just randomly interrupt my cast and Melee don't have this problem of randomly getting stunned from this damage to interrupt their GCD. Maybe if the enemy is the same level as you (e.g. you're 70 and doing a raid), remove the penalty of "if you sustain 20% damage of your Max HP, the attack will interrupt your spell cast" rule.

DRG: 4.0 DRG was nice in that Blood For Blood was always available around when you enter Life of the Dragon mode. Now, because it requires 3 eyes, it's trickier to coordinate it, it doesn't feel as elegant as it used to. Maybe reduce Blood for Blood recast and slightly lower the potency it offers, or maybe increase its duration so it comes up in the Nastrond rotation a bit better.


RDM: AoE feels clunky and spamming Scatter barely raises your Mana. Maybe make every Scatter proc a Enhanced Scatter similar to how Jolt II always procs Impact. The big push with RDM AoE comes from Enhanced Moulinet, but at a cost of 30/30 Mana, it takes 2 or 3 pulls worth of spamming Scatter to get 90/90 Mana to use 3 Enhanced Moulinets. Unless we are supposed to use it every time we get 30/30. That said, it's range and radius are bad and it should be changed to circular AoE instead of Cone, I feel like it rarely hits all my targets, even when lined up, judging by the floating damage text.

PLD: Increase Requiescat duration by 3 seconds. It always feel like the final Holy Spirit cast is just barely covered by Requiescat's duration, leaving you little room for error or dodging for mechanics to land all casts within the window. Or make Holy Spirit cast a bit faster or faster cooldown on it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

Enochian has no cooldown, but you still lose out on a Foul by having to do those mechanics, which is very much a loss.

---

Which, if you actually read what I've been saying and is right there on the tooltips, means you'll lose the foul regardless because you'll be losing AF/UI, rendering the 0 cooldown Enochian button pointless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

RDM:
I find the job overall very good with few flaws (not talking about number or raid viability here)
My only complain is the pace of the job. To me RDM should be that quick caster opposed to the slow yet hard hitting BLM
I would like them to make that verthunder/aero have a RECAST time of 1.5sec so that once they're cast you're not standing still like a moron for 2.3sec (the fact that we have so many instant makes this especially annoying visually speaking).

---

I think you forgot about Embolden. That's nice at the start, but it drops by 20% every 4 seconds.