Buff Mana Shift... plz

Please... it just needs a buff so it isn't just an absolute joke in comparison to refresh.

Isn’t the cooldown for mana shift shorter than refresh?

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Originally Posted by Hugowulf

Isn’t the cooldown for mana shift shorter than refresh?

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Kind of irrelevant. All that really matters is the MP/min. Mana Shift's is both far inferior and comes at cost of the caster's own mana.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Kind of irrelevant. All that really matters is the MP/min. Mana Shift's is both far inferior and comes at cost of the caster's own mana.

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Don't forget Black Mages hate it because it requires UI, foreknowledge of the mana tick, an instant cast / transition, and taking it comes at the detriment of (most likely) addle, because swift, sure, diversion, and lucid threatdrop are pretty mandatory all around.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Don't forget Black Mages hate it because it requires UI, foreknowledge of the mana tick, an instant cast / transition, and taking it comes at the detriment of (most likely) addle, because swift, sure, diversion, and lucid threatdrop are pretty mandatory all around.

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I think you can drop diversion for addle. Using lucid when threats are nearly at max worked fine (at least for me though).

But I agree it's clunky with requiring to be in UI thing. The only situation that doesn't incur dps loss for BLM to use mana shift is that you have thunder proc ready and Blizz 3 > Blizz 4 > Thunder proc + Shift > Foul, which is not that uncommon but troublesome to use XD.

Yes please, was in a O8s party and we had no BRD/MCH and the mp for the healers was always just at the bottom even though we were Mana shifting religiously....it gave them such little amounts of mp it was almost negligible....

This just furthers goes to show SEs to inept to make casters have any kind of good synergy at all...like why take a caster if the range dps can provide Mana for healers so they can also dps crazy but at the same time provide better rdps.....caster is like optional these days lol

Lucid Dreaming - 6,720 MP (21s).
Refresh - 6,000 MP (30s).
Ewer - 3,000 MP (15s).
Mana Shift - 3,000 MP (if caster had 15,000 MP)

Lucid Dreaming should be #1 resource for casters to get MP back. If refresh is used on CD, casters should have no MP issues (Assuming no deaths).
Mana Shift is mostly used on BRD in order to maximize Foes' usage and gain. However, this is only used when farming and trying to maximize dps output.

At the moment, BRD can have full MP during these times (In minutes).
With Mana Shift: 0, 1, 3, 4, 6, 7
Without Mana shift: 0, 1, 4, 7

Buffing Mana Shift will be good when it comes to progression, but when farming it will be almost mandatory to give it to BRD. Since BRD Maximum MP is 9,840 at level 70 (Not counting party bonus). They will easily have full MP if mana shift was buffed to give more than 3,000.

The benefit is not only for BRD. BLM & PLD can abuse this as well. I'm not against buffing it, just pointing out other uses of Mana Shift.

Probably a bad comparison, but I like to compare Mana Shift to Goad when people ask why I think Mana Shift is awful.

Would you be fine if Goad had a 2-minute Recast but it drained 200 of your TP and gave 200 to the target party member?

Would you be fine if Mana Shift had a 3-minute Recast but gave the MP without needing to give up your MP?

Isn't BLM immune to mana shift during AF? I never had the pleasure to test it myself

AF blocks any mana regen or income. Such as DRK's stance. Please do not use your mana shift on BLM ._.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Isn't BLM immune to mana shift during AF? I never had the pleasure to test it myself

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Originally Posted by Nobuyoki

AF blocks any mana regen or income. Such as DRK's stance. Please do not use your mana shift on BLM ._.

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Tested it to be certain. BLM is immune to Dreaming's refresh effect while under Astral Fire, but surprisingly not immune to Mana Shift. Feel free to Mana Shift your BLM if you know they have the spell speed to support the extra spells.

That's interesting to know It should net 2 extra F4, you could work around with that in some form, dunno how good it would be but it's something to consider in a possible double caster comp

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Originally Posted by Remedi

That's interesting to know It should net 2 extra F4

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Only one, though. Astral Fire doubles the cost of fire spells. RDM and SMN give 2,880 and 2,664 mana, respectively. Add that to BLMs residual 1,320 and it's still only enough for one more Fire IV at the 2,400 cost.

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15,480    MPmax
-  600    Fire III (with UI discount)
-1,200    Fire IV (with UH discount)
-1,200    Fire IV
-1,200    Fire IV (last UH discount)
-2,400    Fire
-2,400    Fire IV
-2,400    Fire IV
-2,400    Fire IV
-  360    Blizzard III (AF discount)
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 1,320

Residual 1,320 + Mana Shift {2,664 , 2,880} = {3,984 , 4,200}

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You are right I was thinking about the normal MP cost lol. Still who knows maybe it's something to think of

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Only one, though.

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but 5 Flares in a row o.o/

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Tested it to be certain. BLM is immune to Dreaming's refresh effect while under Astral Fire, but surprisingly not immune to Mana Shift. Feel free to Mana Shift your BLM if you know they have the spell speed to support the extra spells.

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Have you tested on Dark Knight's Darkside, out of curiosity?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Have you tested on Dark Knight's Darkside, out of curiosity?

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I have, but it was way back in like, 4.0. Didn't work. Get a "Missed" message

Yeah, i think the wording on Astral Fire is that it blocks mp "regen" and similar effects. So no lucid or refresh style abilities. A direct infusion of mp is different though, so shift/potion style moves would be fine.

Thinking about it, convert and potions always worked, so I don't get why I thought it wouldn't work

Astral Fire negates passive mana regeneration. Starting on SB the Refresh effect now boosts the passive regeneration instead of being a separete source (prior to SB Mage Ballad and MP Promotion used to restore BLM MP even inside Astral Fire), and this is why things like Shift and Ethers work. Shroud of Saints and Luminiferous Aether also worked as separete entities but since they gave all mages access to Lucid, BLM inclusive, they had to change that or we'd have crazy 10+ Fire IV openers.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

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While what you said isn't wrong...

I think the request is mostly validated by the fact pick up groups can sometimes have no BRD/MCH and Mana Shift isn't enough if things are going bad. Also it's not enough on God Kefka if things are going well... And funny enough RDM can get into MP issues if there is no Refresh avaliable in the party and they have to constantly Mana Shift a healer because of the MP cost from the ability. The skill's design is very flawled...

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I think the request is mostly validated by the fact pick up groups can sometimes have no BRD/MCH and Mana Shift isn't enough if things are going bad. Also it's not enough on God Kefka if things are going well.

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If someone runs with no BRD/MCH, they should know what to expect. Your caster is not your MP battery because they need their MP.

I don't think the purpose of Mana Shift is to be as good as Refresh. It is there to help, but people started depending on it so much. I personally think casters will suffer if they keep it on CD at a higher cost with no BRD/MCH around to give them their MP back.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

If someone runs with no BRD/MCH, they should know what to expect. Your caster is not your MP battery because they need their MP.

I don't think the purpose of Mana Shift is to be as good as Refresh. It is there to help, but people started depending on it so much. I personally think casters will suffer if they keep it on CD at a higher cost with no BRD/MCH around to give them their MP back.

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Then Refresh can put a damage penalty back onto Bard/Machinist. After all you shouldn't be depending on it.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

If someone runs with no BRD/MCH, they should know what to expect. Your caster is not your MP battery because they need their MP.

I don't think the purpose of Mana Shift is to be as good as Refresh. It is there to help, but people started depending on it so much. I personally think casters will suffer if they keep it on CD at a higher cost with no BRD/MCH around to give them their MP back.

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So what would the solution be to a somewhat randomized to be paired without a BRD/MCH since that's part of the game? These kind of groups aren't running without them on their own will. The purpose is truly to not be as good, and it shouldn't be, but it's far inferior and it ends up serving no real purpose at the end.

The "dependance" argument would make sense if all jobs were self sufficient, which they aren't.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Then Refresh can put a damage penalty back onto Bard/Machinist. After all you shouldn't be depending on it.

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MCH has no benefit from using Refresh while BRD does. Adding a penalty is not fair unless they make a change where BRD does not benefit from their own Refresh.

People will force casters to be responsible for filling MP bars first rather than BRD/MCH. And this will hurt their MP a lot. The only way they can recover is if they have BRD/MCH. It doesn't make sense to have casters empty their MB bar and then have BRD/MCH fill it with a penalty...What?

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

So what would the solution be to a somewhat randomized to be paired without a BRD/MCH since that's part of the game? These kind of groups aren't running without them on their own will. The purpose is truly to not be as good, and it shouldn't be, but it's far inferior and it ends up serving no real purpose at the end.

The "dependance" argument would make sense if all jobs were self sufficient, which they aren't.

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If people queue via Raid Finder, they will always have one physical ranged dps. People will only have no BRD/MCH if they go with PF and party leader did not lock a spot for one physical ranged dps, or their static simply does not have one.

I agree it is not fair for groups running with no BRD/MCH to have this issue. But it seems the game is designed this way (Call it bad design).
Back in the days' healers managed their MP in order to heal and dps without having BRD/MCH take damage penalty to give them MP. So I assume this is what healers with no BRD/MCH have to do.

I wouldn't say it's bad design. The game is truly made for one of each role and I personally lock my PFs in that way. My point is very simple though, Mana Shift doesn't serve for its own purpose on most cases in special when Refresh is out of the table. I guess in the end we both agree on the same thing but by different standards.

As for the penalty, recovering that idea wouldn't be very nice and would make the rangeds jobs harder to balance for no purpose but adding an annoyance back to the role.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Then Refresh can put a damage penalty back onto Bard/Machinist. After all you shouldn't be depending on it.

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While I'd personally prefer to see a return to actual songs/turret effects, that would seem awkwardly arbitrary to me at this point.

Moreover, we'd need to see Hypercharge moved from a CD to something with activation (in place of the GCD Bards lose) and then drain cost (similar to Foes) for Machinist not to be further penalized by such a penalty than Bard is, as Bard itself (and its rDPS bonuses) benefits from Refresh while Machinist does not.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I'd personally prefer to see a return to actual songs/turret effects, that would seem awkwardly arbitrary to me at this point.

Moreover, we'd need to see Hypercharge moved from a CD to something with activation (in place of the GCD Bards lose) and then drain cost (similar to Foes) for Machinist not to be further penalized by such a penalty than Bard is, as Bard itself (and its rDPS bonuses) benefits from Refresh while Machinist does not.

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you can keep piercing down, or you can keep refresh in its current form, or you buff mana shift.

You get one of those 3.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

you can keep piercing down, or you can keep refresh in its current form, or you buff mana shift.

You get one of those 3.

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So if we keep piercing down we have to nerf Refresh AND cannot buff mana shift. That seems a false ultimatum...

I feel like Mana Shift could use a buff regardless of what is done to the power of ranged toolkits and independence.

I'd also like to see greater balance between the drastically rDPS-inferior Machinist and -superior Bard regardless.

My point was only that such a change would inadvertently increase imbalances already in place, and would seem awkward and contradictory to the current Ranged toolkit design; if made, I'd prefer the due additional changes be made.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I don't feel I was unclear.

It's one of the three, not two. If you drop piercing down, it stops there. That puts Mach/Bard damage to a balanced area compared to the goodies they bring, still entirely capable of hitting every DPS requirement and excelling, but not without making nearly an entire role obsolete.

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You were clear, yes; I just don't think the mutual exclusion is remotely realistic, nor do I think even an extreme extent of any or all of the three changes could make a entire role noticeably impacted, let alone obsolete. I feel you are far overstating the prevalence and counterplay of the three spectrums of changes mentioned.

I don't feel I was unclear.

It's one of the three, not two. If you drop piercing down, it stops there. That puts Mach/Bard damage to a balanced area compared to the goodies they bring, still entirely capable of hitting every DPS requirement and excelling, but not without making nearly an entire role obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

you can keep piercing down, or you can keep refresh in its current form, or you buff mana shift.

You get one of those 3.

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I'm not against buffing Mana Shift (I've already stated this on my first post).

I also pointed out some of it usefulness as long as the party has BRD/MCH, it shouldn't be a problem. But people are complaining about MP issues that healers run though & Mana Shift is not good enough compared to Refresh.
I just pointed out that casters will have the same issue with buffed Mana Shift if there are no BRD/MCH around, and the caster will have to manage their MP in order to not lose so much. Maybe I was misunderstood, so trying to clear things.

Mana Shift shouldn't be seen as a Refresh equivalent.
It's an extra help if the support already used his refresh and the healer had to heal more more any reason/died/had to raise a lot.

We used to have none of these before. Brd/mch had to sacrifice their dps to give mp/tp back. They even already reduced Mana Shift CD.

Everything is fine as it is.

We can look it as a goad equivalent and in that case it comes off short, the MP restored are not enough to make a differance in anything and the price is cumbersome, Goad might be less useful now that TP are less punishing, but still doesn't have any kind of restrictions on it

Mana shift is not fine as is, even the trick of giving an extra F4 to a BLM is not remarkable since you are probably not running a double caster comp anway.

Manashift has a 120s cooldown now instead of original 150s cooldown. About 3000 MP transferred to a single player at Lv.70.

Refresh has a 180s cooldown. About 6000 MP recovered per party member at Lv.70.

Manashift shares the same 120s cooldown as Lucid Dreaming. SMN/RDM can use them together to recover the MP to make it basically free. However, BLM has more MP complications with Lucid Dreaming and Manashift. Manashift is not as good as Refresh, but BRD/MCH need a reason to be in parties too.

In God Kefka, some healers have only 16,000 MP because everyone on Reddit and official forums keep saying Piety is useless. Inevitably, they run completely empty on MP. Piety is not useless, since it provides economy for actions (damage and GCD efficient Cure II's) and buffer for mistakes (costly Raises). If healers are running out of MP, they need to get more Piety. If you play AST, you need more MP than other healers at the moment.

If they blindly follow low PIE builds that's their fault. If the party make no slot locked into BRD/MCH knowing MP is an issue for that specific fight that is also the party's fault.

Regardless, I do agree Mana Shift could be a bit better to mitigate this problem. But it shouldn't be as powerful as Refresh. If the burst of MP was higher to make it count without being used on CD (since it costs a lot for casters) or not costing as much MP (half of it, none?) it would be a lot better already. If shift is constantly used it actually helps already but it comes with too many cons.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Modern fights designed to be a breeze with mch/brd double refresh is completely ballanced when double caster would be dead in the water. Groups should always require ranged physical, but casters deserve to be an off meta gimmicky job for raises sometimes (except blm, they should be amazed they're ever allowed in a group)

Everything is fine as it is.

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This is in zero way "fine as is"
Shift is barely worth using as is, costs the caster resources, can severely impact blm rotation depending on where its used, and only helps one target worse than refresh does despite it being on one person vs the whole party. It's primary use seems to be for extending foe anymore. If it's a fight where healers require mp from outside sources, it barely slides them by.

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Originally Posted by lulunami

Manashift is not as good as Refresh, but BRD/MCH need a reason to be in parties too..

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Ranged DPS are the safest DPS in the game.

They are ranged.
They are the least affected by movement requirements.
They will always have the highest uptime assuming player competence.
They bring party damage buffs.
-They do pretty good personal damage- well above any of the enrage requirements
They bring defensive utility that's universal.
They bring Refresh.

Yeah, Mana shift is fine as is. There won't be a singular reason to bring Ranged otherwise if it were better.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

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Don't forget double range has been in the speed clear meta comp for like 2 years now...

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yeah, Mana shift is fine as is. There won't be a singular reason to bring Ranged otherwise if it were better.

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Yea kind of like what it's like for casters currently lol there isn't a reason to bring one at all outside of progression....but there is not only one but two phys range dps spot in almost everyone pf group.

There will never be a reason not to bring BRD/MCH but there isn't one reason to bring a caster...see the issue here

People really undervalue how important one Tactician use is in a whole encounter.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

People really undervalue how important one Tactician use is in a whole encounter.

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EH, it's just it's also a threat drop, so it probably gets used more liberally than Refresh does. The first use of Refresh is generally setting up the later ones so they happen when MP is tightest.

For Machinist anyways. Bards pop that !@#% like candy.