So, I know SE isn't going to make any sort of change overhaul (mix up) before 5.0, So perhaps maybe we could see something like this for 4.5? Idk, I know we need some slight potency boosts.
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A new AoE Rotation for Trash mobs
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Enhanced Scatter >> procs Veraero / Verthunder to be an AoE, and halfs the potency to hit enemies within range, and grants the same amount of White / Black.
[Enhanced Veraero] Deals wind damage with the potency of 150 to enemies within range: may trigger Enhanced Scatter
[Enhanced Verthunder] Deals thunder damage with the potency of 150 to enemies within range: may trigger Enhanced Scatter
AoE versions can still proc. Fire/Stone, but they won't be AoEs.
I originally proposed a Blizzard / Water to be an AoE rotation, but perhaps that might take away from WHM or BLM a bit too much, thus why it wasn't taken too well.
Thanks ahead of time! Pat out
[RDM Suggestion] AoE Attack Phase
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04-29-2018, 09:02 PMPatronasCharm[RDM Suggestion] AoE Attack Phase
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04-30-2018, 02:02 PMWayfinder3
Ugh, i don't think thats a terrible idea however, i believe rdm's rotation should lose rng not gain it.
I propose Verwater(100pt) 15 >> VerBlizzard(100pt)15 >> Moulinet -30, scatter being tied to rng means that it's not fulfilling the purpose it's supposed to as an AoE Rotation but instead feels like an AoE alternative to jolt 2.
i.e scatter(100 pt) at 3 enemies is 300pt which is equal to using one cast of thunder or Aero but doesn't give the same amount of mana. so it's generally better to alternate til you can moulinet or manafication into even more moulinet.
Scatter 300 + Aero 300 + Scatter 300 + Thunder 300 = 1200 potency, while simply spamming scatter for the same amount of gcd's will net you 300 x 4= 1200 but significantly less mana.
however at 4 or more enemies scatter spamming is just better since that 400 per gcd.
My problem is that either scatter isn't worth using alone, or moulinet is too impractical to get to unless you prep it in your single target rotation. Using scatter to get to moulinet is just not smart, unless you're talking dungeon trash and even then you're using scatter because it's an Aoe filler, not because you want to use moulinet. tapping into melee routes and having an AoE rotation similar to samurai is what i'd prefer for red mage. making Ver Holy and Ver Flare AoE would be a nice change to make them more faithful to their original forms -
04-30-2018, 02:52 PMRongwayFirst set of alternating spells: Scatter [3|3] + Veraero [11|0] + Scatter (0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]) + Verthunder [0|11] yields [17|17] - [22|22] mana (expected [18.25|18.25]).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Subsequent sets: Scatter (0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]) + Veraero [11|0] + Scatter (0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]) + Verthunder [0|11] yields [17|17] - [27|27] mana (expected [19.5|19.5]).
First set of 4xScatter is [3|3] + 3(0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]), or [12|12] - [27|27] (expected [15.75|15.75])
Subsequent sets are 4(0.75[3|3] + 0.25[8|8]), [12|12] - [32|32] (expected [17|17]).
Here's a more readable table
Alternating spells guarantees [5|5] more than the minimum, but expected values are only [2.5|2.5] apart. Alternating spells are expected to generate more mana, but will only grant one extra E.Moulinet per twelve spells compared to full Scatter spam.Code:Min Max Expected
Alternating (1st set) [17|17] [22|22] [18.25|18.25]
Alternating (after 1st) [17|17] [27|27] [19.5 |19.5 ]
Scatter spam (1st set) [12|12] [27|27] [15.75|15.75]
Scatter spam (after 1st) [12|12] [32|32] [17 |17 ]
Alternating on a group of 3 (and, in some cases, larger groups) is a good idea, but the best reason is to keep a stronger mob even with the rest of the group; not necessarily because of the extra mana generation. -
04-30-2018, 02:58 PMKabooa
Man I wish I remembered how to do probability, but yeah.
That sounds right. "significantly less" made me raise an eyebrow.
That said, I'd be completely fine if Scatter had a bonus effect of making the next spell cast at 50% reduced potency but hit everything in the radius. A fair AOE damage buff and letting you manipulate your MP bar a bit more actively. -
04-30-2018, 09:16 PMPatronasCharm
More than likely yes, maybe the AOE spell would have to have it’s mana generarion cut by half as well; to balance out Scatter / Scatter.
Also if it did have that AOE buff to its next spell, it would open up more variety in spells, rather than introducing a new AOE cast spell, like Verwater or Verblizzard (which I’m not against of course)
As far as an ancient spell being AOE, perhaps a new ancient finisher in the coming expansion could give us one, I’m down for a Quake / Flood / is Freeze AOE. But not all. -
04-30-2018, 11:09 PMPatronasCharm
More than likely yes, maybe the AOE spell would have to have it’s mana generarion cut by half as well; to balance out Scatter / Scatter.
Also if it did have that AOE buff to its next spell, it would open up more variety in spells, rather than introducing a new AOE cast spell, like Verwater or Verblizzard (which I’m not against of course)
As far as an ancient spell being AOE, perhaps a new ancient finisher in the coming expansion could give us one, I’m down for a Quake / Flood / is Freeze AOE. But not all. -
05-01-2018, 07:28 AMAppleJinx
Rdm currently has 3 aoe options. Scatter spam > enhanced moulinet spam > contra sixte on cd. You can even work manafication in there to get even more enhanced moulinet spams if a pack doesn't die quite as fast. The number of options is fine compared to other casters where blm has flare, thunder 4, foul and fire 2 you don't really want to use after you reach level 68 anyway for trash and smn has bane, painflare, shadow flare, death flare or akh morn.
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05-04-2018, 01:36 AMEllieShadeflareI think the problem is more that the AoE rotation feels much clunkier than the ST rotation than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleJinx
That said, I'm partially salty they didn't feature Verwater/Verblizzard. Scatter could easily be removed for one of them. -
05-04-2018, 01:46 AMPatronasCharm
Exactly, I rarely use E. Moulinet, bc it’s never convenient, I generally have to Corpse-to-corpse >>E. Moulinet, then displacement out.
So I keep it ad Scatter / Scatter >> contra sixte
Also E. Moulinet eats too much mana, id rather save it for a rotation -
05-04-2018, 02:19 AMChaoticCrimson
I find in most dungeons where it's available that I use E. Moulinet at least once per trash phase before the bosses, and still be able to get my mana back up in time to open with the single-target melee combo on the boss (or at least enough to reach that point via Manafication). I see no problem with using it to burn through bigger trash mobs faster, since it's three instant hits compared to getting maybe two casts of Scatter in at the same amount of time. In any case, adding an AOE finisher at the end of a triple-E. Moulinet wouldn't be bad either. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it's already been in the plans for future expansions. Beyond that and potentially adding another neutral OGCD AOE, I see no reason to bog the kit down with any further AOEs.
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05-04-2018, 04:07 AMPatronasCharmWhen I originally made my 5.0 wish list almost a year ago I recommended an AOE finisher where E.Moulinet was the last string to the combo opening up Verfreeze / VerfloodQuote:
Originally Posted by ChaoticCrimson
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05-04-2018, 06:23 AMMhaericYou left out Enhanced Scatter in your first one so it's a 75% chance to get 17|17 and 25% chance to get 22|22 for an expected average result over time of 18.25 for 4 GCD. Your math on the second is wrong too, I think, and its expected average result is a lot less since you won't always get 3 chances at the proc. I.e. if you proc then your next one is guaranteed not to proc. The max at any rate is 22|22 not 27|27 since you have to at best alternate Scatter with Enhanced Scatter. I'd have to sit down and calculate it out a bit more, but don't have time atm since I'm on the way out the door to work. Either way, even in the short term it's always better to use the alternating single target one. On 3 mobs anyway. Once you get more than 3 then the potency output increase outweighs any balance discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
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05-04-2018, 07:28 AMRongwayOh! You're right, I missed that one. Previous post has been updated with better maths. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
No, Enhanced Scatter still has the same 25% chance to proc another Enhanced Scatter. You can have an indefinitely long string of Enhanced Scatters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mhaeric
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05-04-2018, 07:28 AMAzerhan
I love the idea, it would be less annoying that spaming Scatter then Moulinet !
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05-04-2018, 07:33 AMKabooaCan confirm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
Scatter strings are the jackpot. nothing like getting 32/32 in 4 gcds. -
05-04-2018, 02:19 PMMhaericQuote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
Huh, I've never noticed that. I just assumed that Enhanced Scatter worked like the Enchanted melee spells where they replaced the base version entirely, and never looked closer. It does indeed potentially chain the procs, although from my brief testing it's not very common. E.g. It's only a 1.6% probability to chain it three times in a row.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rongway
As for the average values, here's the math broken down a bit more distinctly:
Starting with no procs, probability of balance level after 4 GCDs worth of Scatter+verspell alternating:
25% - 22|22 balance
75% - 17|17 balance
Starting with no procs, probability of balance level after 4 GCD worth of Scatter only spam:
1.6% - 27|27 balance
14.1% - 22|22 balance
42.2% - 17|17 balance
42.2% - 12|12 balance
The scatter spam while having the potential to produce more mana is far more likely to produce less when alternating it with a verspell, even only having a 15.5% chance of getting >=22|22 compared to the 25% chance of single target weaving. And it comes with the trade off of a hefty 42.2% probability of only getting 12|12 balance. In the long term this all evens out somewhat, but given the short duration of fights, it's still more advantageous to take advantage of the more stable numbers produced by the single target weaving. I.e. you won't ever get the rare 27|27 result, but you're also not going to get the far more likely 12|12 result either.
As for the average results of 15.75 and 18.25 over time, that's an ~15% increase in balance built over time, which is not insignificant, particularly if you account for manafication which will boost that to an ~30% difference. That's essentially getting to your melee burst 15-30% faster.
As for the rotation as a whole, which is what this thread was originally about. I'm happy with the way it is now. It fits with the theme of RDM being a simpler gameplay style, yet is not as simple as some make it out to be. I can see in the next expansion them adding in an AoE specific verfinisher spell, but for now it's in a good spot. Something like for every Enchanted Moulinet you use you build a stack of a 30s duration buff up to 3 stacks and the AoE verfinisher can only be cast with at least one stack and the potency is based on the number of stacks you have.