Quality of Life Improvements and MSQ Gating for New Players

This reddit thread here expresses some of the things, I've been thinking about FFXIV as a new player and someone who was introduced to the FF franchise through this game.

MSQ gating content seems like a huge turnoff to most casual players,the main target demographic for FFXIV.

A casual player who just wants to hang out with friends in Stormblood areas/do the newest content has to slog through at least 3-4 months of MSQ (ARR to the start of Stormblood),assuming they're playing 2 hours daily.

If they want to get into raids at this point, at least another 2 months to get geared up.

Sure there's the jump potion,free trial and the first 30 days free. However, after purchasing the game,the investment of further time and money compared to some other popular games,which let you get into the newest content faster,doesn't seem worth it.

The MSQ ought to be condensed, especially ARR's MSQ.

Areas/Maps should not be gated behind MSQ and neither should content(eg NPCs/NPC vendors who only unlock after completing some points of MSQ.)

Would this 'break' the story? Perhaps but players entering these areas,unlocking these NPCs,could maybe get a spolier alert warning or something.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

The MSQ ought to be condensed, especially ARR's MSQ.

Areas/Maps should not be gated behind MSQ and neither should content(eg NPCs/NPC vendors who only unlock after completing some points of MSQ.)

Would this 'break' the story? Perhaps but players entering these areas,unlocking these NPCs,could maybe get a spolier alert warning or something.

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Since you're new to final fantasy as a series you might not know that the heart of all final fantasy games revolves around its story.. disregarding the fact that monsters would obliterate lowbies and that certain areas are only available with purchase of expansions... a spolier alert wouldn't help for some things because it would literally break the story to access those areas... like going to ishgard... or churning mists... or anywhere in stormblood (it's occupied territory ).

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

...the heart of all final fantasy games revolves around its story..

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This is all well and good, if FFXIV was a single-player game.However, it is not. It is first and foremost an MMORPG catered towards casuals focusing on a social/community experience. The current MSQ gating is detrimental towards the social aspect and also a matter of accessibility for casuals.

If a lowbie enters an area with high level mobs, that's their problem.In WOW, as a lowbie, I can sneak into high level areas;it's my fault if I get one-shotted by an aggro mob. To me, it makes the world more realistic.

Not having purchased certain expansions and the areas associated with those expansions; in programming that's a 'simple'(although really tedious) problem to solve with a whole bunch of if-else statements etc.

Any player who unlocks content before the story can be 'warned'. Not everyone plays with story as their main priority. It's about giving people options.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

The MSQ ought to be condensed, especially ARR's MSQ.

Areas/Maps should not be gated behind MSQ and neither should content(eg NPCs/NPC vendors who only unlock after completing some points of MSQ.)
Would this 'break' the story? Perhaps but players entering these areas,unlocking these NPCs,could maybe get a spolier alert warning or something.

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In this game that has constant complaints of "but there's nothing to do!", reducing even more content to trivial skippability would be a bad idea. Someone who layed down the money to get ARR AND HW AND SB would be cheating themselves of "content" if they just walked into the new areas, not to mention the barriers presented to botters by gating things behind expansions helps keep them out of the current player blob. Yes there's a lot of stuff you "have" to do to be current, but having a level one waltz into Shirogane isn't worth the amount of changes necessary to the game to make it happen. I wouldn't like to know that time and dev resources were devoted to that when they could be making things for the current majority. If you don't actually read the MSQ and just blitz through dungeons and cutscenes it's maybe 2 weeks of nightly work. If you don't care about story then this really isn't that great a game for you. Sure some people don't and the still play the game but the meat of this game is in the story, not the innovative gameplay , job dynamics or graphics.

Its a Final Fantasy game first and for most. Why does every game ever have to be exactly the same? XIV does things differently, not all good but not all bad. They gave players a way to get to current content in the form of story skip potions. They did this because its not easy to chop up the main story and still have it make sense and it is also the way they expect people to level there first class/job. The only thing I agree with is allowing access to all areas regardless of where you are in the story, just let NPCs react to you differently, they already have that feature now.

Cohesive story telling is a warm welcome compared to random main quests here and there broken up and not really giving any substance.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

In this game that has constant complaints of "but there's nothing to do!", reducing even more content to trivial skippability would be a bad idea...

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That's not a valid complaint though.More a matter of perception.The Hildebrand quest line is optional but I would highly recommend it to every new player. What I'm suggesting, is making the MSQ 'optional' in a similar manner.

I've enjoyed the story for the most part and I get that this is a story-based game. However, when viewing this as a casual comparing FFXIV against the competition; FFXIV is not an 'accessible' game. Which to me means loss in revenue from new players considering that SE has made it clear this is an MMORPG catered towards casuals.

Lesser new players=lesser revenue to develop new/content for players all caught up on MSQ.And perhaps even more overpriced Mog Station items/phone companion apps to make up for the loss in revenue.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

That's not a valid complaint though.More a matter of perception.The Hildebrand quest line is optional but I would highly recommend it to every new player. What I'm suggesting, is making the MSQ 'optional' in a similar manner.

I've enjoyed the story for the most part and I get that this is a story-based game. However, when viewing this as a casual comparing FFXIV against the competition; FFXIV is not an 'accessible' game. Which to me means loss in revenue from new players considering that SE has made it clear this is an MMORPG catered towards casuals.

Lesser new players=lesser revenue to develop new/content for players all caught up on MSQ.And perhaps even more overpriced Mog Station items/phone companion apps to make up for the loss in revenue.

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How is "there's nothing to do" invalid though? Some people HAVE done all the content that interests them. Personally I play almost exclusively for the story and glamours. I don't extreme raid and I don't PVP. When I run out of story and have no current glamour goals I play far far less. All are welcome and there is no rush to burn through content because at the end all that awaits you is tiny increments of increasing gearscore. Every major MSQ checkpoint or gate is doable with gear provided in story, there should be no point in the first run through you are lacking. This is a casual game in that it's possible for a "casual" player to keep up with current events, not that it requires very little investment of time at all.

Think of it this way: Skipping grinds = less time playing the game in total = shorter subscriptions and less player investment (people who feel invested feel like they should keep investing)= less consistent funding for the game = less money to make more game.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Sure some people don't and the still play the game but the meat of this game is in the story, not the innovative gameplay , job dynamics or graphics.

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As a basically new player (played for a short time years ago) unless you are a FF fanatic I can’t imagine watching/reading this storyline. I first logged in saying I was going to do that, then I realized I could sooner read War and Peace and watch every Star Wars movie ever made faster then watch and read this story line with all the dialogue and cut scenes. Not knocking it, I’m sure it’s great, but I believe more then you think completely ignore it and play it for other reasons, not the least of which is they have got bored with other MMOs and it’s different.

I am glad it's there to filter the impatient people out since chances are I wouldn't want to be playing with them anyway

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

How is "there's nothing to do" invalid though? Think of it this way: Skipping grinds = less time playing the game in total = shorter subscriptions and less player investment (people who feel invested feel like they should keep investing)= less consistent funding for the game = less money to make more game.

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Even if the MSQ was to be made optional, there's so much other content,Beast Tribes, Gold Saucer,player events/RP etc. Hence, I said it's a matter of perception.There's always going to be players complaining that there's nothing to do in any MMORPG.

If tedious grinds have to be implemented in game to slow down player progress,it means existing content is not good enough/needs to be improved to retain subscriptions.

You can buy skip potions... if you want to skip. Dev's don't need to waste development time for people who don't want to actually play the entire game. They're not going to adjust the main story or side story quests, they've already provided a solution.

I don't know why you guys are so against some QoL improvements like condensing the ARR storyline or making it easier to get to the relevant content without forking over even more money...

People don't play the game for the same reasons. A good portion of people play XIV for the story at least in part. But for those that just want to be able to do stuff with their friends, the MSQ is a burden and a hindrance. Can you honestly say there's a lot of value in the ARR quests that would be lost by cutting out some fetch quests and "go here to talk to x and report back" interludes? If players want to skip it all then sure charge them for the convenience - it's their loss and waste of money. But for those that want to get to the good stuff without losing context, trimming the fat is a good thing. I can certainly think of worse things SE has invested development resources into lately...

Honestly, I don't consider the MSQ as being on the same level of content as raids, trials, PvP, dungeons, etc. It adds playtime but not in the sense that it continues to give people "something to do". You do it once and that's it. I personally enjoy the story a lot for what it is but it doesn't add significant value compared to the stuff I play most for, which is the end-game content (such as it is). So I can see where OP is coming from and I'm not sure why people are willing to defend a less than stellar newbie experience in the game. "It gets better I promise, just slog through 30 hours of story and bs quests until you get to where I am if you don't wanna pay more money to skip all that crap you just paid for" is not the world's greatest sales pitch.

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Originally Posted by Stoutale

As a basically new player (played for a short time years ago) unless you are a FF fanatic I can’t imagine watching/reading this storyline. I first logged in saying I was going to do that, then I realized I could sooner read War and Peace and watch every Star Wars movie ever made faster then watch and read this story line with all the dialogue and cut scenes. Not knocking it, I’m sure it’s great, but I believe more then you think completely ignore it and play it for other reasons, not the least of which is they have got bored with other MMOs and it’s different.

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And you are more than welcome to that stance, it's not for everyone and I've had people tell me it's uninspired and trite which I can see from their perspective.I'm not a fanatic though, I just like stories and world building. I'm sure there's a decent amount who don't play for story, but they have their option to get through it and honestly ignoring the actual story and purely experiencing the gameplay will, if nothing else, show you how to play the game and get comfortable with the mechanics. You don't have to sit through any of it except those 2 dungeons at the end of ARR, and that never ever repeats. I will say that the kind of person who isn't in it for the characters around them will find it boring quickly though unless they are playing it for their friends, I don't think it should cater to people who would only stick around for gameplay innovation and "newness" since as we've seen the current formula works but is anything but innovative.

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Originally Posted by Stoutale

As a basically new player (played for a short time years ago) unless you are a FF fanatic I can’t imagine watching/reading this storyline.

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I actually know quite a few players who never played any FF game before and they enjoyed the msq.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

MSQ gating content seems like a huge turnoff to most casual players,the main target demographic for FFXIV.

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XIV is a very story driven game. Of course this won't appeal to everyone but it's obvious that it does to a very large majority. SE wouldn't have been able to tell the story like this for years if it wasn't well received.

If a player cannot stand working through a story and skipping cut scenes isn't enough for them, then this isn't the game for them. Simple as that. How the story is told is a prevalent and fundamental part of the game. Asking for this to be changed would alter the game to its core.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

A casual player who just wants to hang out with friends in Stormblood areas/do the newest content has to slog through at least 3-4 months of MSQ (ARR to the start of Stormblood),assuming they're playing 2 hours daily.

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Since when does casual mean you play very little? Being casual has a lot more to do with -how- you play than the amount of time you dedicate per day. Most players I know are casual and they play 4+ hours almost every day.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

If they want to get into raids at this point, at least another 2 months to get geared up.

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If they only want to play a max of two hours per day, then good luck raiding. Most statics raid more than that on their raid nights and if you're pugging waiting for a group and then killing the boss can easily take longer than that.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

How is "there's nothing to do" invalid though? Some people HAVE done all the content that interests them. Personally I play almost exclusively for the story and glamours. I don't extreme raid and I don't PVP. When I run out of story and have no current glamour goals I play far far less.

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To be fair, it's an "invalid" complaint simply because it's worded poorly. They mean to say that there's nothing they want to do. Just like when people look into a pantry packed full of food and exclaim that "there's nothing to eat". This is kind of just me arguing semantics since we know what they mean, but it's always been the kind of thing that irks me when I hear it and I always try to self-correct when I catch myself about to say it.

It also saves time in the long run because if you say "There's nothing to do", someone will invariably show up to ask you if you've literally done everything, listing off all of the content the game has to offer. To which you would probably answer "Oh, I just don't like to do some of those things". Nothing you WANT to do =/= Nothing TO do. The dominoes supporting your argument just fell like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Note that I'm not accusing you, Krotoan, of falling into this trap. I'm speaking generally on how I don't think it is a valid complaint when worded like that. You'll have to forgive me for pointlessly arguing semantics. I'm just sitting here bored because I have nothing to d--ooooh I almost walked right into that one.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Since when does casual mean you play very little? Being casual has a lot more to do with -how- you play than the amount of time you dedicate per day. Most players I know are casual and they play 4+ hours almost every day...If they only want to play a max of two hours per day, then good luck raiding. Most statics raid more than that on their raid nights and if you're pugging waiting for a group and then killing the boss can easily take longer than that.

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And I know of casual players who can only play 2 hours on weekdays and perhaps a little more on weekends/days off. Googling for the definition of a 'causal player' brings up references to both reduced time and skill etc required. Not just types of content attempted.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Even if the MSQ was to be made optional, there's so much other content,Beast Tribes, Gold Saucer,player events/RP etc. Hence, I said it's a matter of perception.There's always going to be players complaining that there's nothing to do in any MMORPG.

If tedious grinds have to be implemented in game to slow down player progress,it means existing content is not good enough/needs to be improved to retain subscriptions.

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Tedious being subjective as well. If you're interested in the story it's anything but, and if you're truly new then every new dungeon and mechanic you're introduced to as well as every locale and monster will be a refreshing change. Beast tribes, gold saucer and almost every other "side" content are heavily gated grinds as well. That's how you make an online MMORPG have longevity. I can't think of one successful MMORPG that doesn't have some sort of time gating in it at all.
If you allow people, they will consume all updates like locusts and ask for more. Someone was likely level capped within days of the games release and possibly story finished even when dungeons were actually difficult at max ilvl. However giving most of the playerbase a reason to login everyday but also slowing them a little so they CAN'T easily blow through all of it in one go. It's not a positive for player freedom, but it's an understandable necessity to keep subscriptions going. Otherwise you've got to try and produce content at the rate people consume it and that is impossible.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

To be fair, it's an "invalid" complaint simply because it's worded poorly. They mean to say that there's nothing they want to do. Just like when people look into a pantry packed full of food and exclaim that "there's nothing to eat". This is kind of just me arguing semantics since we know what they mean, but it's always been the kind of thing that irks me when I hear it and I always try to self-correct when I catch myself about to say it.

It also saves time in the long run because if you say "There's nothing to do", someone will invariably show up to ask you if you've literally done everything, listing off all of the content the game has to offer. To which you would probably answer "Oh, I just don't like to do some of those things those things". Nothing TO do =/= Nothing you WANT to do. Checkmate.

Note that I'm not accusing you, Krotoan, of falling into this trap. I'm speaking generally on how I don't think it is a valid complaint when worded like that. You'll have to forgive me for pointlessly arguing semantics. I'm just sitting here bored because I have nothing to d--ooooh I almost walked right into that one.

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I cannot blame people for timekilling on forums.. I hate to brag but I'm getting paid to argue right now =]
I get why people usually say "there's nothing to do" and I'll usually respond with suggestions just as you have "have you done....?" but if you've come to a game to experience story and you've experienced all the story, you're not wrong in saying you've exhausted the content you're interested in. It's not invalid as a statement, just not complete.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

...Beast tribes, gold saucer and almost every other "side" content are heavily gated grinds as well...Otherwise you've got to try and produce content at the rate people consume it and that is impossible.

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Yes, but these types of 'side' content do not bar you from areas, important NPC vendors etc. While I can see,why SE and other companies ,slow player progress, I think any reasonable player knows, there only so much content which can be produced and once they have cleared all the content they want to do, it's their problem what to do next. I guess what rankles is 'artificial' progression blocks to 'endgame' content.

Addressing, "This is a story-based game" arguement:

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...there is another game that already did this with much greater success. And believe it or not - it is also within the FF universe, online, and over 15 years old... It's called FFXI where you can choose to NOT do main story quest if you don't want to, and can level up nicely. You can also do any of the patches main story independently from the base story. FFXI gives so much OPTIONS and FREEDOM - it is mind boggling that FF14, while did better jobs on some things - failed on every single counts when it comes to "let people do what they want and please stop locking everything behind MSQ". FFXI main story is also less "dumb fetch quests for no reasons" - mind you, there are some, but compared to FF14....

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's not invalid as a statement, just not complete.

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Oh, bravo. I was trying to figure out how to say this in so many words and decided instead to wax poetic for want of something to do. This is a beautifully succinct way of explaining it, thank you.

Twisted, if they sped it up, players would raid log in a month. Leveling your first job to cap is the longest, most engaging content in this game. You want to rush to cap for what, do for 4 endgame fights every 6 months? To cap tomes?

Part 2: "This is a story-based game..'

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Exactly. FFXI's expansion stories were more coherent and cohesive (even if certain ones took forever to finish being released...) because they didn't have to keep building on a single, continuous narrative as well...

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For XI: You could also run to the vast majority of zones at lv1, were you so inclined, without being blocked unless it involved a boat or airship. Could unlock every job in the game (and all future expansions) once you hit lv30, regardless of your progression in any part of the story so long as you could reach the NPC(s) required.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

Addressing, "This is a story-based game" arguement:

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FFXI also punished you harshly for failing, locked bag expansion behind invisible rep grinds and gated you from getting to later cities with nail biting sneak runs past monsters who would aggro a low level from far away enough that it was almost impossible at beginner levels. My only experience with FFXI WAS early though, so these may have been mitigated later, but there were many time gates in FFXI, just not that one. FFXI did have an incredible story it was based around even if you didn't do it though, I'll admit you didn't HAVE to but you lost out on a lot if you chose not to.

Here's my argument.

We've been getting less and less content with every patch and a high level of 'junk' content that sneaks in and is usually dead or useless even before the next patch drops. I don't want a team that's been reducing content with ever single patch to use their resources to go back and fix the ARR quests. It's pointless and if you don't want to play the game, you probably weren't going to play the game that long anyway. If you really don't want to do the quests than you can drop the cash to bypass it all. You have your options, but don't waste my chance at getting what little content we started receiving to fix an issue that has other options to bypass it.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

FFXI also punished you harshly for failing

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...yeah this person must never have played it. Just getting utsusemi: ichi was far more tedious than anything this game has to offer. And SMN in general was effectively unlocked at 50 for most people, because trying to get all summons solo at 30 is far harder than any savage fight in this game, and was worse than maat imo because there is zero way to cheese it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

...yeah this person must never have played it. Just getting utsusemi: ichi was far more tedious than anything this game has to offer. And SMN in general was effectively unlocked at 50 for most people, because trying to get all summons solo at 30 is far harder than any savage fight in this game, and was worse than maat imo because there is zero way to cheese it.

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Ugh, don't remind me. I was able to get all my summons outside of Leviathan. You needed to rely on money for the potions, could only do it every 2 hours because you needed your two hour, had to wait for the right in game day for the summon to be weakest, and had to get someone cast the highest level of Protect and Shell on you. It was a nightmare. I still wake up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night thinking about how many times it took me to just get Shiva.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

FFXI also punished you harshly for failing, locked bag expansion behind invisible rep grinds and gated you from getting to later cities with nail biting sneak runs past monsters who would aggro a low level from far away enough that it was almost impossible at beginner levels...

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I'm sure FFXI is imperfect in many ways. However, I brought up those quotes as evidence that there's already a precedent for 'optional/'semi-optional' MSQ.

Let SE implement the best of 'freedom'/'options' from FFXI for FFXIV is my proposal while discarding things which do not work.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

A casual player who just wants to hang out with friends in Stormblood areas/do the newest content has to slog through at least 3-4 months of MSQ (ARR to the start of Stormblood),assuming they're playing 2 hours daily.

If they want to get into raids at this point, at least another 2 months to get geared up.

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Eh, I think trying to lump this as a problem for casual players is missing the mark. I am hyper casual and have zero interest in raiding or end game content because I find it boring. I'm here for the MSQ and all of the other activities (like Gold Saucer, crafting, etc). The MSQ is actually paced for casuals to get through in chunks, so I don't think that's the problem.

The real "problem" is that emphasizing story telling is...well, unusual in MMOs. Most of the people into MMOs probably aren't into story heavy games (at least not their multiplayer games). There is no other MMO I can really think of that places such a heavy emphasis on a continuing narrative. WoW sort of does, but it's done mostly through lore (if I remember correctly). It's clear FF14 was aiming to nab fans of the single player FF games, and they did that pretty well.

So on the one hand, yes: the slog between ARR and HW should be trimmed down. I also believe that the exp you get from the main quests should actually carry you to the appropriate levels by themselves (mid 30s I had to veer off to fate grind or PoTD. Shouldn't really have to do that just to progress 5-year old MSQ content). That alone would speed things up exponentially.

On the other hand though as others have said I think it comes down to preference. If people don't like playing through the MSQ then they're probably never going to enjoy FF14 down the road either, because I don't really see it changing. We're nearly 5 years in and clearly they want a narrative. I really don't think it's catastrophic that people that don't like that approach don't play this game. That's not to be elitist or be all "deal with it," that's honestly just a matter of what games you enjoy playing. I personally don't understand the appeal of skipping stories in RPGs, so games like Skyrim are not my cup of tea. So I don't play them.

I'm curious: what would you propose to be used in the MSQ's place for unlocking certain things? (not being mean or sarcastic, honestly curious) If the MSQ were made optional then there would have to be other things implemented that people could use. Would people really rather just run PoTD or fate grind until they could hit the appropriate levels? I don't personally see how that would stop folks from dropping game since I see that as boring (but I'm biased towards the MSQ).

My two cents:

1. Keep the requirements for the Hard mode trials from 2.0 to 2.4 (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan, Mog, Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva).
2. Cut half of the filler-like quests after the player is introduced to Yugiri and the Domans in 2.2. Yugiri is probably the only important character out of all of them, yet most of the quest don't involve her until later.
3. Cut 2 or 3 quests from the first half of the 2.3 story. I believe that some of those quests are not relevant to either Ramuh and the situation that occurred in Uldah during the patch.

I'm fine with the other portions so far. 2.4 is the patch where the transition to Heavensward starts to really take place. Also, free gil and exp is nothing to sneeze at if you're the type that makes a little go a long way.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Here's my argument.
It's pointless and if you don't want to play the game, you probably weren't going to play the game that long anyway. If you really don't want to do the quests than you can drop the cash to bypass it all. You have your options, but don't waste my chance at getting what little content we started receiving to fix an issue that has other options to bypass it.

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As Hestzhyen articulated better than I have:

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So I can see where OP is coming from and I'm not sure why people are willing to defend a less than stellar newbie experience in the game. "It gets better I promise, just slog through 30 hours of story and bs quests until you get to where I am if you don't wanna pay more money to skip all that crap you just paid for" is not the world's greatest sales pitch.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

As Hestzhyen articulated better than I have:

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An important point here though is someone will have to work on these changes. It's not a small investment either, someone has to change/test/implement the streamlining and if you think we get sparse updates now imagine if half the team gets swiped to work on summarizing the MSQ experience. People already complain about recycled content, imagine actually losing current content to old content development.

I will concede that the "filler" we got between major plot points is very lackluster and I did feel like I was a glorified messenger for quite a bit. I could have done without that and summarizing that would be welcome to me since it was a whole lot of travel for no reason. That would take dev time too though.. I don't feel it's worth the price.

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Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Eh, I think trying to lump this as a problem for casual players is missing the mark. I am hyper casual and have zero interest in raiding or end game content because I find it boring...

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Yup, my definition of 'casual player' includes time/skill/types of content attempted based on googling around.

I've also stated that I get one of the draws of this game is that it is "story-based". However,all I'm stating is that MSQ should be made 'optional/semi-optional' and not gate important/'endgame' content.

MSQ should be trimmed down and made optional/semi-optional. The leveling/gear/rewards/etc associated with it can remain. So it's just another path to leveling/gear/etc like POTD.

People are going to be bored and complain they have no content to do no matter how much content is there once they get caught up to current MSQ. All MSQ gating does is place 'artificial' progression blocks. Improving upon and interesting existing content is the way to go.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

As Hestzhyen articulated better than I have:

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And the only way I can respond to that is that I and other players who have been here since that slog was brand new content simply matter more. Sure, you want to attract new players, but you also want to retain old players. If you release a patch a bare bones patch to fix a problem that already has other solutions then you risk making long term players irate. The type of players who have spent a crap ton of money on this game already. If they can figure out a way to fix it without diminishing the already diminished content then go ahead, but frankly they should just deal with it like everyone else did.

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

It's not a small investment either, someone has to change/test/implement the streamlining and if you think we get sparse updates now imagine if half the team gets swiped to work on summarizing the MSQ experience. That would take dev time too though.. I don't feel it's worth the price.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

...but you also want to retain old players. If you release a patch a bare bones patch to fix a problem that already has other solutions then you risk making long term players irate. The type of players who have spent a crap ton of money on this game already.

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So unless we get concrete numbers on things like how much revenue new players generate, how many bother to get caught up to current MSQ before quitting, it seems that from a cost analysis point of view, it's not worth it for SE.

However, in the long run, I cannot see how such an MMORPG can remain profitable without focusing more on non-subscription based streams of revenue.

At the very least, I hope they trim down ARR's MSQ.

The question is how far SE will be willing to go for trimming down the end-game MSQ quests. They've already took out the guildhests requirement as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

People are going to be bored and complain they have no content to do no matter how much content is there once they get caught up to current MSQ. All MSQ gating does is place 'artificial' progression blocks. Improving upon and interesting existing content is the way to go.

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If I remember correctly when Alexander raid was introduced people felt very disconnected from it because it did not relate to the main story in any way. It required finishing 3.0 base main story but that was it. At least with 4.0 the raid(going to exclude names)was in some way linked to the main story. So having the "artificial" blocks isnt horrible, people need to learn this isnt (insert generic non story mmo here).

Also again trimming would require MAJOR time to process. If they did it it would need to be done in such a way that it still preserved the story. I play another game that literally butchered what little main story it had in order to trim down the quests, it didnt help whatsoever.

Everything has a purpose within the game, why cant people learn to adapt to it and accept it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

So unless we get concrete numbers on things like how much revenue new players generate, how many bother to get caught up to current MSQ before quitting, it seems that from a cost analysis point of view, it's not worth it for SE.

However, in the long run, I cannot see how such an MMORPG can remain profitable without focusing more on non-subscription based streams of revenue.
At the very least, I hope they at least trim down the MSQ, especially ARR's MSQ.

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Not us though, we aren't the ones who are gonna decide it. Unless the devs see some hard evidence for trimming or allowing skipping the MSQ it's never gonna get greenlit. We can saw how much we want it all we like but if subs keep happening and people keep buying the skip pots there's no reason for them to change and especially no reason a beancounter would suggest it.

There is some trimming I'd like to see as I said, but I'm not holding my breath. I also don't think the entirety should be skippable since that experience is part of what makes the community the community, for better or worse.

This may come as a surprise to some, but the game isn't required to appeal to every player. Players that don't enjoy the game as the devs think it should be are free to find other games that suit their needs better.

Personally, I'm not sure that those players that just want to rust to "endgame" realize just how monotonous the latest content can be when that's your only goal in the game.

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

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I get that. But you really didn't offer any alternatives whatsoever. You just said "it should be optional" and then "the leveling/gear/rewards/etc associated with it can remain."

How do those things remain? Is this just another set of side quests? Because if so that doesn't really solve the quest bloat problem, these just don't have cutscenes to skip. Do you literally just unlock dungeons by dinging a certain level, or would you have to complete certain quests? Because quests serve two purposes: help you level, and show you where things are at. So if someone dings 15, does the game flash a map with a message saying "you now can access Sastasha!"? If we go with just the level-unlock route, how are players expected to gain those levels if you don't add anything to replace the now optional quests?

Levels themselves are artificial progression blocks. Regardless if you do the MSQ or not you are going to be grinding something to get to end game unless you use a jump potion.