“non-essential” premium content, does SE want this kind of reputation if it continue?

https://consumerist.com/2012/04/04/c...rica-for-2012/

I am making this thread because I am really worried. With this happening over and over again hearing about companies tanking advantage of people, it is sadding me more and more a company I generally like, or used to like is going down the same route:

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There have even been numerous accusations that EA and its ilk deliberately hold back game content with the sole intent of charging a fee for it at a later date. It’s one thing to support a game with new content that is worth the price. It’s another to put out an inferior — and occasionally broken — product with the mindset of “ah, we’ll fix it later and make some money for doing so.”

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Rushing out 2.0? and making us pay extra with this app to make up for coding problems of the game? Why is it not enough? when it is going to be enough? 125 EUR statues that lock an emote, 9.00 flare emote, etc? many of this stuff is for one character when stuff like wow is cheaper for account bound.

Locking basic UI feature for 5 dollars a month? There is no reason what so ever to change extra for retainer to retainer item movement. That UI feature is supposed to be with the base game, not something you leave out because of bad coding just to monetize off it later. Do you really want to go down the route where you go so far you cause government regulation? Can you take a step back and really think what you are asking from your customers? You have all these "pull sub" posts here, and myself does not have much longer as well.

Base sub is 14.99, while all the extras add up 21 dollars, a month, you do not see that asking 36 dollars a month is too much for a game? despite being “non-essential” , I have to point this out:

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To those who might sneer at something as “non-essential” as a video game company winning the Worst Company In America vote: It’s that exact kind of attitude that allows people to ignore the complaints as companies like EA to nickel and dime consumers to death.

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I am really worried from the lack of communication on what this means for... well the players that continue to play.. with the effect on microtransactions on top of this. Clearly SE is aware inventory space is a problem, otherwise they would not be offering to sell 7 retainers while the 8th costs 3 times as much because it is tied to the app.

We should be getting more for our base sub. Where is 1 extra retainer per expansion? Where is the real glam log? not the beta glam toilet they released. Where are the real fixes? not just light fixes to attempt to keep people happy, like some of the quotes in this article.

When watching this vid on EA, it really sounded like they where speaking about SE but just not as extreme as them. How they treat FFXV, and this game FFXIV with the cash shop, the app, these quotes really stood out.

Please think what you are doing before it is too late and end up exactly like EA.

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have voted to send a message to Electronic Arts and the gaming business as a whole: Stop treating your loyal customers like crap.

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Yes because the answer is to make yet an another thread is always the best solution.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Yes because the answer is to make yet an another thread is always the best solution.

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We got no response, so, that's the way.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Yes because the answer is to make yet an another thread is always the best solution.

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I don't know what I was hoping for when I clicked into this thread. Bamboozled again :(

Isn't spamming the forums against ToS?

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

Isn't spamming the forums against ToS?

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You don't understand. We have to talk about the exact same thing from every angle, at least once a day!

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Yes because the answer is to make yet an another thread is always the best solution.

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There aren't enough threads to be honest. We need to keep complaining, remaining silent won't change anything.

You worry about worst case scenarios way to much. Try to relax until the patch actually comes out instead of this constant speculation and assuming the worst is always going to happen just because you spend way to much time trying to convince yourself and everyone else that something terrible is going to happen. I have concerns about some of the things related to the app, but for now I’ll,wait to see exactly what the details are and exactly how it’s going to work. You’re not going to make any difference constantly making new threads with nothing but negativity and assumptions. Seriously, play the game and have fun. SE has been pretty reasonable up until this point, and we all have to compromise, because we all can’t have our way, we can’t all force our opinions on others, and things are not always black and white. There is an art and science to everything, so stop trying to constantly insist on forcing your definitions and perceptions on the community, when you don’t know all of the information yet. I have seen so much misinformation and speculation to conclude that way to many people have nothing better to do than seek attention with clickbait style threads and arguing with anyone and everyone that doesn’t agree that the game is going to hell instead of playing the game. Try and have some fun.

If only we could block some forum users

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

If only we could block some forum users

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There is an ignore button, but I don't think it hides threads.

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Originally Posted by DarthRok

I have concerns about some of the things related to the app, but for now I’ll,wait to see exactly what the details are and exactly how it’s going to work.

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They showed the app in its entirety during the recent live letter. It's know which parts are available to free users, and what's part of the premium sub fee.

What exactly are you going to wait for?

While normally I would agree about the whole "spamming threads is no good" thing,This is an important topic, and by the time the "future premium services" come around it will be too late to ask for its removal.

So people are asking now, and they are right to.

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

If only we could block some forum users

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Ignore works, shame it doesn't block the threads from view that they create.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

While normally I would agree about the whole "spamming threads is no good" thing,This is an important topic, and by the time the "future premium services" come around it will be too late to ask for its removal.

So people are asking now, and they are right to.

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And it would be far more effective to discuss it in one big thread instead of making a bunch of pointless low-count fodder that gets pushed off the front page after only a few hours.

Actually the Japanese forums are actually happy about the App. So much so that some were willing to pay 10$ a month for the premium version of the app.

Its a slippery slope with the app.

Because what if for all we know they come out with a Ultimate/Gold version of the app that cost 10$ a month that adds inventory space. A 3rd saddle bag expansion. Squadron management, and full retainer and marketplace access with even more kupo nuts.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

snip.

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The thing is... this is something OP could have posted in their other thread(s) already talking about the app, or the thread about 'lack of communication.'

I've never seen someone so happy that controversy arose as I've seen OP the past week. They already made a complaint post (or 3) for every thing that struck them as unfair or not right instead of consolidating their concerns into one or two threads so as to make the issue more credible. No instead they rather make constant soapboxes all over GD as to drown out any other topic of discussion because gosh darn it THEIR thoughts and opinions are more important than other players'. If you agree with OP and their tactics, welcome to the fold. If you don't then prepare for the storm of cherry picked quotes and claims of "you just don't get it" or "I honestly don't know what they're responding to". OP you are way too pleased that SE has done something that a larger body agrees is a bad thing with you.

Is this game still fun for you? Have you canceled your sub? Honestly it's not healthy to continue playing something if it has become more of a burden or source of displeasure due to the actions of the creators. No this isn't a "don't like it, then you can git owt" statement, it's a statement that you should look out for your own happiness and peace of mind. I've quit many games that had long since ceased to be fun and had become a source of frustration because it was healthier to do so.

The way that you respond to those who disagree with you is also disconcerting. Opposing views are not inherently wrong and are not personal attacks on you and your supporters. Truly the best way to enact change is to vote with your wallet and while it may seem pointless, voicing your worries in a concentrated manner (not scattered like you've been doing) will reach the right people.

tl;dr: OP, I think it's time for you step back and take stock in why you continue to play and fan the flames of discontent. Is it for the actual betterment of the game or are you just trying to convince everyone that you're right.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

They showed the app in its entirety during the recent live letter. It's know which parts are available to free users, and what's part of the premium sub fee.

What exactly are you going to wait for?

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I’ve voiced my concerns in a couple of the first threads on the topic. Not a lot else you can do that is constructive. All this paranoia about the MB is completely overblown and based on speculation and assumption. Supply and demand ultimately dictates price, and it’s embarassing how many people in this game don’t understand that simple concept alone. Anyway, I’m done with this thread. I’ve said what I have to say and if you want to keep wasting time getting yourself worked up over things that haven’t happened and you have no guarantee will happen, be my guest. I’ll be playing the game and having a good time.

Nobody's saying that this is a good thing and shouldn't be addressed. We're saying that looking at the front page of the General Discussion forum to see >2/3 of the posts all complaining about the exact same elements of the exact same problems is really just... annoying. Sure I get the idea of not necro'ing threads that are 'dead', start a new one, it's not standard message board etiquette but I get it. What I don't get is needing to post again and again and again and again and again when there are already current threads about the same topic!

It's been said (and given the threads which I see get mod responses, I think it's right) that the number of threads doesn't get the devs' notice, length of a thread does. Dividing your complaints into 35 5-10 page threads versus one massive 100+ page thread just nickles and dimes the issue. No mod is going to read through that many of the same thread, and if they're being asked for evidence as to our unhappiness, they're going to get away a lot easier being able to show one thread, not 50.

Add that to the fact that OP follows the exact same pattern with every single announcement SE makes (from this to Eureka to the Ungarmax response and beyond), it's hard for most forum regulars to believe it's anything other than a desperate need for attention. Especially given their tendency to go on rants that insult anyone who disagrees with them.

And yes, you can block posters; OP was probably one of the first ones I blocked. However, it doesn't stop the threads from showing up, nor does it stop you from seeing their responses when people respond to them.

This is a classic case of feeding the trolls, and it makes me tired.

Could not the same be said about any online app / online game to begin with? If people step back and look at the bigger picture it is a business model. Just like any other gaming industry or service this is the nature and has changed based on feed back, specially those from people wanting cash shop items and such. The key thing is that this is an option to try and keep a balance between those who don't want cash shops and those who do. My God has common sense really gone out the window in this world? It's called a business, its an option. There is a FREE VERSION, if people don't want to support the app then just don't use it. Chances are most people who are against it will be hypocrites and use it anyways. So lets cut the BS and just be honest. IF people want to start a movement best thing to do is use a petition or boy caught services. Lets face reality most wont do it. So once again;

One; IT'S AN OPTION, just like paying for extra retainers. IT'S UP TO USE THE CONSUMER. they are not singling people out their will be options on free version.

Two; treating people like crap? more like people not seeing the big picture. It's called a business.Not sure why this is even an issue.

Kind of tired people let a thread die and some troll just picks it back up with a new one....Just add to the old thread to begin with keep it alive once they see more responses it may help your cause...Common sense.

To the people saying we should "Wait and see." I get that you're trying to avoid the doomsaying, and all that jazz. But we have waited and seen many times before. This behavior isn't just limited to this specific instance. Just because SE is doing this now to FFXIV doesn't mean that this isn't the same kind of thing we have seen over and over again from other companies. We don't want that kind of garbage in our FFXIV. You know what happens when you wait and see with crap like this? YOU GET MORE CRAP.

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Originally Posted by LastFireAce

She no wrong tho, WHY would you want to pay a sub in top of a sub? Nothing to accepted unless your completed utterly headless.

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Its optional though.Nobody really needs this app.Its a convenience and nothing more.Like i said before the main people who will suffer from this app are price gaugers as you could potentially see a lot more undercutting.
Now if it was a service that already existed and then they decided to lock it behind a paywall after i'd understand the concern but this isnt the case.
Also another way of looking at it would be that the people who do pay are ensuring the upkeep of the non paid version of the app for the rest of the player base as it's likely the budget for this app isnt coming from the main game subscription fees.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Also another way of looking at it would be that the people who do pay are ensuring the upkeep of the non paid version of the app for the rest of the player base as it's likely the budget for this app isnt coming from the main game subscription fees.

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This is the part that gets to me. There's a reason we use the "<something> limitations" meme, because its always something or another which they say it stops them from doing whatever they are using the limitations scapegoat. And here we have the example to, as an option, expand inventory cap on the chocobo saddlebag and even add another retainer (which will likely be an additional cost and not part of the sub) if you decide to pay for this convenience/service.

Will we get something equivalent for us who won't pay this fee? Very likely. Still doesn't: Make sense to "magically" not have a 'limitation' if we can fork more money, nor does it make sense when there are serious concerns that need to be properly address in regards to botting in PvE + PvP areas and the myriads of QoL changes/improvements/additions that the main game needs.

I agree that because its an option, you can choose not to. But this is not just optional, it's price differentiation.

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Its optional though.Nobody really needs this app.Its a convenience and nothing more.Like i said before the main people who will suffer from this app are price gaugers as you could potentially see a lot more undercutting.
Now if it was a service that already existed and then they decided to lock it behind a paywall after i'd understand the concern but this isnt the case.
Also another way of looking at it would be that the people who do pay are ensuring the upkeep of the non paid version of the app for the rest of the player base as it's likely the budget for this app isnt coming from the main game subscription fees.

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Yea is optional until they add more stuff making to NO longer optional. Well then SE better pay them. Agen WoW, Destiny all other game out there get they app FULL everything for FREE. This first app I seen even in a SUB game ask you to pay for "Optional stuff" for simple stuff. Perhaps I'll accept a one time purchase but no a sub this ain't dating app.

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Originally Posted by Isala

To the people saying we should "Wait and see." I get that you're trying to avoid the doomsaying, and all that jazz. But we have waited and seen many times before. This behavior isn't just limited to this specific instance. Just because SE is doing this now to FFXIV doesn't mean that this isn't the same kind of thing we have seen over and over again from other companies. We don't want that kind of garbage in our FFXIV. You know what happens when you wait and see with crap like this? YOU GET MORE CRAP.

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The disconnect for me is that I don't consider anything Square Enix have started selling to be the kind of crap to worry about. It's not a slippery slope if you haven't actually stepped onto the slope yet. Granted, they now have the infrastructure to sell tokens and who knows what else, but they're only using it for something that there's a legitimate reason to rate limit. The first time they actually cross a line, I'll complain, but no amount of glamours, mounts, extra retainers, or the like is ever going to be across the line for me. To me the argument essentially sounds like "they're selling stuff of no consequence, therefore they're going to start selling things of consequence!" and that doesn't logically follow.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

The disconnect for me is that I don't consider anything Square Enix have started selling to be the kind of crap to worry about. It's not a slippery slope if you haven't actually stepped onto the slope yet. Granted, they now have the infrastructure to sell tokens and who knows what else, but they're only using it for something that there's a legitimate reason to rate limit. The first time they actually crossa line, I'll complain, but no amount of glamours, mounts, extra retainers, or the like is ever going to be across the line for me. To me the argument essentially sounds like "they're selling stuff of no consequence, therefore they're going to start selling things of consequence!" and that doesn't logically follow.

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Retainers started to cross the line, the amount now is past crossing the line, now they are locking basic UI features behind a second sub fee? I don't think so. So everyone posting this wait and see is BS, and yet SE reps can reply here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...76#post4649276
So clearly SE is not understanding the worry of this issue, so I offered more detailed insight why it is a worry (for those questining why I made this thread at all)

Even asked for more communication here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...munity-teamand yet that has no reply as well

For the people trying to defend this "its optional" yeah I guess you missed the main point in the title of the thread.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Yes because the answer is to make yet an another thread is always the best solution.

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If the OP had their thread creation privileges revoked, (Still being able to post replies) the forums wouldn't be nearly as volatile with reaction threads. Especially since the last live letter.

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Originally Posted by SilverObi

If you don't then prepare for the storm of cherry picked quotes and claims of "you just don't get it" or "I honestly don't know what they're responding to". OP you are way too pleased that SE has done something that a larger body agrees is a bad thing with you.

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And it's this sheer obstinance that only damages their own cause. The OP is so concerned about being "right" and having everyone agree with her precise definition of Pay to Win, that people who otherwise may support the thread(s) have shifted away from them.

Complaints and criticisms are valid, yes. And I'd argue the overwhelming majority of NA/EU dislike at least parts of the Companion App. But beating it into the ground accomplishes nothing. You know what got EA's attention? A single reddit thread with over 600,000 downvotes and a mass drop in both pre-orders and sales. Spamming your point just gives companies an out by saying you're exaggerating. Which, sadly, the OP has.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

This is the part that gets to me. There's a reason we use the "<something> limitations" meme, because its always something or another which they say it stops them from doing whatever they are using the limitations scapegoat. And here we have the example to, as an option, expand inventory cap on the chocobo saddlebag and even add another retainer (which will likely be an additional cost and not part of the sub) if you decide to pay for this convenience/service.

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The game programmers seem to be doing some ‘creative’ things to provide us with extra storage - is it possible they could be using the app as a way of storing that item data on the app/iCloud/whatever instead of on their servers? (I don’t really know if it works that way.)

Another post... yay... why not just quit already? I'm starting to think some of these people (you know which ones) just want to complain alot so people pay attention to them... we get it you hate everything SE does with this game... everything needs to be "fixed"... all content should be "new", "fresh", and "different"... they need to do something "totally unique for a mmo" like copy system X from game Y... you'll NEVER be happy no matter what they do... every time I see a thread started by a few certain individuals I keep praying it's a quitting for good thread...

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Retainers started to cross the line, the amount now is past crossing the line, now they are locking basic UI features behind a second sub fee? I don't think so. So everyone posting this wait and see is BS, and yet SE reps can reply here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...76#post4649276
So clearly SE is not understanding the worry of this issue, so I offered more detailed insight why it is a worry (for those questining why I made this thread at all)

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I disagree that retainers are crossing the line. Yes, it is technically a competitive advantage to be able to sell more stuff at once, but given how little gameplay advantage gil provides, it's so negligible as to be safely ignored. They aren't locking any UI features that offer any advantage being the app subscription fee. The feature that does offer an advantage, dealing with the marketboard, is available for free in game.

The simple fact is, all of this game's many extra fees and charges are buying one of two things: glamour, or convenience. If you want the convenience but don't want to pay extra for it, I feel for you, but that doesn't make it a slippery slope towards doom.

As a side note, Square Enix only responds when they have something concrete to say, so their lack of a response on this issue is not surprising, nor does it indicate how they've prioritized the issue.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I disagree that retainers are crossing the line. Yes, it is technically a competitive advantage to be able to sell more stuff at once, but given how little gameplay advantage gil provides, it's so negligible as to be safely ignored. They aren't locking any UI features that offer any advantage being the app subscription fee. The feature that does offer an advantage, dealing with the marketboard, is available for free in game.

The simple fact is, all of this game's many extra fees and charges are buying one of two things: glamour, or convenience. If you want the convenience but don't want to pay extra for it, I feel for you, but that doesn't make it a slippery slope towards doom.

As a side note, Square Enix only responds when they have something concrete to say, so their lack of a response on this issue is not surprising, nor does it indicate how they've prioritized the issue.

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Moving items from retainer to retainer is a basic feature that comes with the game, this is something when you buy the game itself along with some of the sub money funds. I did not say it brings an advantage, I am implying, and something I said before, is this is no different then konami charging 10 dollars per save file, and I would argue this is worse since that is a one time fee.

Your own argument is a slippery slope, oh the gold saucer is only optional, lets add a 2 dollar a month access, etc..

Regardless I did also speak with my wallet, My sub did end, and I do not have much time left on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

My sub did end, and I do not have much time left on the forums.

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finally something positive from one of these threads

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

no different then konami charging 10 dollars per save file, and I would argue this is worse since that is a one time fee.

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... really? Being able to sell more items compares to requiring to you delete your entire character should you want to start fresh? This is what people mean when you reach way too far. Is this app scummy? Yes. Few would disagree, at least in the West. But you're making silly comparisons and exaggerating how bad it is, which does little to serve your argument.

I mean, let's dissect this. Say the Moogle Coins sell for $1. Myself and another crafter get into an undercutting war. Now I have all afternoon to play from my house while the other person needs to leave, but opts to buy Moogle Coins. Say we undercut each other by 100 gil every five minutes. They'll have spent $12 with absolutely no guarantee their item will sell before mine. Not exactly what I call "winning," even if I readily agree Moogle Coins shouldn't be a thing.

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

Moving items from retainer to retainer is a basic feature that comes with the game, this is something when you buy the game itself along with some of the sub money funds. I did not say it brings an advantage, I am implying, and something I said before, is this is no different then konami charging 10 dollars per save file, and I would argue this is worse since that is a one time fee.

Your own argument is a slippery slope, oh the gold saucer is only optional, lets add a 2 dollar a month access, etc..

Regardless I did also speak with my wallet, My sub did end, and I do not have much time left on the forums.

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I would agree that it's no different than Konami charging 10 dollars per save file. I don't think that's pay-to-win either. I mean, FFXI was charging for character slots from the start, and FFXIV has a higher-tier subscription with more characters since 2.0 launched. This isn't new stuff.

My argument is not a slippery slope, because I'm not arguing that anything is going to lead to anything else. I'm not even sure what you mean by that, honestly.

If you're willing to cancel your subscription to protest these new fees and options, more power to you. It's good to stick to your standards.

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

If only we could block some forum users

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You can, but the threads they make will still be there, and if anyone quotes the blocked person's posts, they will show up for you. Just not the original posts.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

FFXI was charging for character slots from the start, and FFXIV has a higher-tier subscription with more characters since 2.0 launched. This isn't new stuff.

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XI still charge for extra slots AND inventory space.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

If you're willing to cancel your subscription to protest these new fees and options, more power to you. It's good to stick to your standards.

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Probably lapsed before this, he/she just likes to complain and exaggerate. Like making multible threads when threads dies.

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Originally Posted by Talraen

I would agree that it's no different than Konami charging 10 dollars per save file. I don't think that's pay-to-win either. I mean, FFXI was charging for character slots from the start, and FFXIV has a higher-tier subscription with more characters since 2.0 launched. This isn't new stuff.

My argument is not a slippery slope, because I'm not arguing that anything is going to lead to anything else. I'm not even sure what you mean by that, honestly.

If you're willing to cancel your subscription to protest these new fees and options, more power to you. It's good to stick to your standards.

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Where do you see me saying about pay to win in that post? I was specifically talking about blocking a basic UI feature behind a paywall.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

... really? Being able to sell more items compares to requiring to you delete your entire character should you want to start fresh? This is what people mean when you reach way too far. Is this app scummy? Yes. Few would disagree, at least in the West. But you're making silly comparisons and exaggerating how bad it is, which does little to serve your argument.

I mean, let's dissect this. Say the Moogle Coins sell for $1. Myself and another crafter get into an undercutting war. Now I have all afternoon to play from my house while the other person needs to leave, but opts to buy Moogle Coins. Say we undercut each other by 100 gil every five minutes. They'll have spent $12 with absolutely no guarantee their item will sell before mine. Not exactly what I call "winning," even if I readily agree Moogle Coins shouldn't be a thing.

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No, your not understanding, again this has nothing to do with sell space or putting PTW advantages in the game. You do not extra fee basic UI features that should be in the base game, that act alone puts it on konami or EA, that is not an exaggeration. Something you do not agree with does not mean it is an exaggeration, stop giving them passes, it is how they keep pushing down the slippery slope, doing small concepts like that to keep pushing down more and more. Paying for 2 then 4 then 6 retainers was getting bad enough.

Also grats you just described how they can put loot boxes in this game without being under the name "loot boxes"

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Not exactly what I call "winning,"

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If anything you would be the winner by making him spend IRL money :P

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

snip

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I disagree that it's not an exaggeration. You are absolutely exaggerating. I thought your main complaint about this app was its supposed p2w advantages. Now it's UI features? Way to stick to your guns.

Can we just agree that it's scummy, we won't pay for it, and have that be that?