Why give the ability to lockout classes for Raids?

I don't understand how Square thought it was a good idea to give parties the ability to lock out classes they don't like. I understand the notion of preventing dups but every week I run into groups in the Party Finder which lock out BLM's just for being BLMs.... I pull more DPS then most other classes yet we get penalized for people being stupid? How is this fair in the slightest?

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Originally Posted by Vivias

I pull more DPS then most other classes

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In theory, yes.
After further investigations, you personally don't.

I know this is a stupid bait post, but I bite.

Just because your personal DPS as a black mage should bigger than others, doesn't mean your party contribution is good.
According to accessible public data however, you are doing around 4,1k dps on o7s, and 4,7k dps on o2s.
This is no way near a level where you should confidently say that you pull more damage than other people, making your otherwise valid point null and void.

Despite that, I rather want you to consider my upcoming point.
Don't you think that everyone who is opening a group is entitled to their own rules, which you can freely choose to follow or not by joining or ignoring this group in partyfinder? Secondly, what exactly prevents you from opening your own group with your very own personal ruleset?

I agree with OP. Obviously since there is no way to measure the actual dps output of players in this game he/she should be allowed on any class.

wait a sec...

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I pull more DPS then most other classes

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I don't exactly know where you have that information from. I'm very curious how you would know that BLM puts out more dps than other classes. Could you please tell me?

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Originally Posted by Sorriow

Don't you think that everyone who is opening a group is entitled to their own rules, which you can freely choose to follow or not by joining or ignoring this group in partyfinder? Secondly, what exactly prevents you from opening your own group with your very own personal ruleset?

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Sorry I had to make this point stand out. It was exactly how I was going to respond.

MNK gets that now too, either because there is already an MNK in the party. or SAM does not want to share gear... so what?
Start your own group, no one owns you anything, everyone pays their sub, and is entitled to play the game how they want to.

Most of PUG BLMs are bad, really bad. Not only that but all other jobs that can fit their slots can contribuite more to the safety of a practice, clear or farm. I'm a BLM main and I'm fine with people locking BLM out of some PF, it just raises chances of meeting the objective in exchange of maybe taking a bit longer to fill.

The ability to lock jobs into your PF is to make sure you've a grup with better chances of meeting the objective no? That's why it exists and how everyone uses it for.

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Originally Posted by Matthew_Fox

I don't exactly know where you have that information from. I'm very curious how you would know that BLM puts out more dps than other classes. Could you please tell me?

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On the other side, a good BLM will pull more raid damage contribuition than SMN or RDM (and BRD/MCH without DRG).

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Originally Posted by Matthew_Fox

I don't exactly know where you have that information from. I'm very curious how you would know that BLM puts out more dps than other classes. Could you please tell me?

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Here you go! Should be useful!

But yeah, PUG players are a very terrible way of judging the power of a job. Black Mage is indeed the most powerful DPS in raw DPS, with its numbers skyrocketing with assistance, despite, or rather, because of its lack of utility otherwise. I mean, what do you expect from a class with practical potencies of 554, the same as Red Mage's finishing spells Verflare/Verholy, for their bread and butter spell?

That said, it's wrong for a player to assume they're as good as the 75 percentile because Black Mage does have a bit of a learning curve. Not in the rotation itself, but more to do with the content they're attempting.

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Originally Posted by Sarutobi_Daritobi

MNK gets that now too, either because there is already an MNK in the party. or SAM does not want to share gear... so what?
Start your own group, no one owns you anything, everyone pays their sub, and is entitled to play the game how they want to.

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The start your own group arguement can often be a double edged sword for many reasons.. zurvan ex highlighted this in a big way.

Everyone was going 1 tank set ups and telling people who wanted to join as tank to start there own groups.

The result of that meant you often had 20-30 parties up for him. All with like 4-5/8 members and none of them ever filled up very quickly because there were so many in the list..

I came to understand BLM is locked for many reasons :

-BLM don't have a raise, so in case a healer or a tank dies in hard situation it's most certaintly a wipe. In PU, as there no coordination, a death can quickly happen and the ability to not rely on a healer to raise is amazing.
-BLM is a extremly hard job to play at high level content and since PF equals uncertainty concerning skill level, players do no longer want to take that risk.
-BLM doesn't have any raid buff so if the player it performing poorly then there's not lever for others players to use to compensate.
-A lot of BLM won't use any of their role-job because it makes them clip and may result in failing their rotation if not executed properly. By that I mean, diversion, lucid dream, apocatastase or even virus.
- A lot ppl play casters and start their down PF, thus lock other casters jobs to increase their chances of looting.

In my opinion, and for having played a bunch of classes, BLM is the hardest job to play in savage by far. Player need to start realizing that it requires a lot of work to pull out actual damage. You guys should know that the general opinions of blm is the following : "BLM has the highest personal output damage but 99% of them in PF can't play it properly on top of having no raise". I highlight in PF here. If you look at data, you'll quickly realize that performance-wise, it takes the blm to reach a extremly high performance to outdps a smn, which as by the way, a raise and raid buffs (and a radiant shield that is not even included in the smn personal dps).

Also to make things clearer, BLM has 0 raid damage contribution, it's only personal damage.

The job being selfish and incredibily hard to play makes it a job players do not like to raid with, simply put.

Well, at the end of the day, it is the Party Leader’s PF, and they are allowed to decide what requirements they want for their group: be it job types, glamour, whatever. They have the right to set the limitations since it’s their group. To bypass restrictions, either look for another with none, or just make your own.

This community is really quite odd, isn't it? I can't think of any other game where the community routinely does not want the #1 parsing DPSer in their groups. It's mind boggling. All you can really do is be persistent or start your own groups. Perhaps one day the community will drop this ridiculous mindset.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

This community is really quite odd, isn't it? I can't think of any other game where the community routinely does not want the #1 parsing DPSer in their groups. It's mind boggling. All you can really do is be persistent or start your own groups. Perhaps one day the community will drop this ridiculous mindset.

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People are addicted to contributions, rather than the actual damage at the end.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

This community is really quite odd, isn't it? I can't think of any other game where the community routinely does not want the #1 parsing DPSer in their groups. It's mind boggling. All you can really do is be persistent or start your own groups. Perhaps one day the community will drop this ridiculous mindset.

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BLM have the potential to be highest dpsers.
You actually have to be good at it to get there though - rolling a BLM isn't an instant 'i win' button and the chasm between a competent BLM and one that isn't is seen on a daily basis.

It’s sad when any job is locked out of content, so I get why you’d be disappointed to see that. But as others have said, PF is specifically designed so the leader can determine the party composition, so it’s really up to them what they do/don’t want. Maybe try creating your own PF so you can decide what you’d like to have.

In terms of having ‘higher dps’ than everyone else, it’s a bold claim, and most importantly current raidcompositions value party dps far more than individual dps. While you may end up the top parser, party dps contribution often ends up being better

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Originally Posted by Ilyrian

BLM have the potential to be highest dpsers.
You actually have to be good at it to get there though - rolling a BLM isn't an instant 'i win' button and the chasm between a competent BLM and one that isn't is seen on a daily basis.

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No, not potential. BLM are the highest parsing DPSers. FF Logs provides statistical proof of this.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

No, not potential. BLM are the highest parsing DPSers. FF Logs provides statistical proof of this.

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Yes, and most players -fail to live up to that potential-

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Originally Posted by Eli85

No, not potential. BLM are the highest parsing DPSers. FF Logs provides statistical proof of this.

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It's because you read them wrong.

On o5s smn parse higher on any performance level . On o7s it's only by the 80th percentile of performance that blm output a smn. On kefka it's by 95th percentile. BLM parse higher on o6s and godkefka. And I'm not even taking in account the devotion raid buff and the radiant shield which easily increase the raid dps by 250.

So yes, they've the potential but obviously only a few succeed to reach it. Because otherwise blm would out dps smn on any performance level which is obviously not the case.

BLM is supposed to be highest dps. Even training dummy have highest dps requirements on blm http://ffxiv.2digitalgames.de/

Well I would leave it be and make your own party I've seen pfs with just a RDM spot or no caster spot at all and two phys range dps...I can't get mad just have to keep looking for a spot for my SMN..

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yes, and most players -fail to live up to that potential-

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We're not talking about individual players. We're talking about the job itself. The job, based on the data from all five fights in Sigmascape savage, is the top DPSer. End.

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Originally Posted by Kaimishi

It's because you read them wrong.

On o5s smn parse higher on any performance level . On o7s it's only by the 80th percentile of performance that blm output a smn. On kefka it's by 95th percentile. BLM parse higher on o6s and godkefka. And I'm not even taking in account the devotion raid buff and the radiant shield which easily increase the raid dps by 250.

So yes, they've the potential but obviously only a few succeed to reach it. Because otherwise blm would out dps smn on any performance level which is obviously not the case.

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99th percentile, all bosses Sigmascape savage. BLM is #1.

Next.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

High skill floor? High skill ceiling? What are those?

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You're blindly ignoring people when they've explained a possible reason why they might ignore BLM. It's a sad but correct reason, but you don't want to listen.

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Originally Posted by EllieShadeflare

People are addicted to contributions, rather than the actual damage at the end.

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You say that like it's a bad thing.

In the end it's simple, if BLM has highest personal dps yet doesn't contribute as much of a combined personal+boosted raid dps to end up on top with that considered, they're not the best job to take.

Or to make it even simpler, just roundabout numbers, say a BLM has 5000 dps but a SMN has 4500 while boosting the dps of the rest of the party by 1000 (combined between the 7 people, not 1000 each), it should be pretty easy to figure out who wins.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

99th percentile, all bosses Sigmascape savage. BLM is #1.
Next.

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Not on o5s, lol you didn't even look. Besides nobody here said that blm is not the top individual dps. Have you read the conversation? Or maybe you're not familiar with statistics hence you do not know what percentile mean. I'll then repeat in the most simple way so that you get the point aswell. The data show that unless blm are really skilled they won't do as much dps as a smn - at the same skill level.

You can see it for yourself, just select other percentiles, it's not that complicated. On o7s smn is top dps on 80th and lower percentiles. It's only by the 90th that blm becomes top dps. Which means that a blm achieving 80% of performance will have a lower dps than a smn at 80%. But a blm at 90% will outdps a smn at 90%. For the reference being at 80% means that you are among the best 20% players of a class on a specific fight.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

No, not potential. BLM are the highest parsing DPSers. FF Logs provides statistical proof of this.

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I think you’re misunderstanding a little bit. Yes, BLM are the highest DPS if you look at “All Bosses” in most percentiles on FFLogs (selecting individual fights will yield you different results, because “All Bosses” is a combination off all 4 boss fights in Sigmascape). However, what Illyrian is saying is that you have to be good at the job in order to reach those high numbers. They’re talking about personal potential.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

We're not talking about individual players. We're talking about the job itself. The job, based on the data from all five fights in Sigmascape savage, is the top DPSer. End.

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Are you looking at individual fights, or just “All Bosses”? Because individual fights will give you different results.

If you look at Chadarnook (since he’s the striking dummy for parse runs this tier), for 50th to Max percentile, BLM ranks as follows:
50th: 3rd
75th: 3rd
80th: 3rd
90th: 1st
95th: 1st
99th: 2nd
Max: 2nd

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99th percentile, all bosses Sigmascape savage. BLM is #1.

Next.

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Phantom Train (99th): 2nd, under SMN (though SMN can pad on the adds in this fight easily)
Chadarnook (99th): 2nd, under MNK
Guardian (99th): 1st
Kefka (99th): 1st
God Kefka (99th): 1st

That being said, however, you’re looking at almost the absolute top, with the absolute best players. 99th percentile means they are better than 99% of players that upload to FFLogs. You cannot apply the play of 99th percentile to the average player, which goes back to what others are saying when they say BLMs have the potential (read that as personal potential, not job potential) to be the Top DPS. But not every BLM can live up to 99th percentile standards.

Comparing dps in o5s is really stupid because party can let one person kill all adds alone and that become top dps. It is all about cheesing. O6s and god kefka are purely dummy fights that tell more what is your single target dps.

Find some 4-8 friends and do content together in FC or LS.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Phantom Train (99th): 2nd, under SMN (though SMN can pad on the adds in this fight easily)
Chadarnook (99th): 2nd, under MNK
Guardian (99th): 1st
Kefka (99th): 1st
God Kefka (99th): 1st

That being said, however, you’re looking at almost the absolute top, with the absolute best players. 99th percentile means they are better than 99% of players that upload to FFLogs. You cannot apply the play of 99th percentile to the average player, which goes back to what others are saying when they say BLMs have the potential (read that as personal potential, not job potential) to be the Top DPS. But not every BLM can live up to 99th percentile standards.

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I'm going to respond to this and this alone. Others can read this and treat it as a reply as their quoted comments to me.

Choosing the 99th percentile was very intentional. The upper-tier echelon of parses will give you very definitive answers of what the job—not necessarily the average player playing the job—can accomplish. To talk about "well this job has the potential due to player skill" is entirely unhelpful. You can know, say, the best Red Mage ever—they may top your own static's damage metre, but to suggest that they are the top parsing DPS based on that is rather silly. It's the same thing here, when we talk about "well the player can be that, but anecdotally, so many players don't."

It's not helpful, at all. Mostly because your anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean anything.

Instead, when we look at statistical date, pull out the averages from the top-tier of players, it's much easier to say, "hey, BLM is the top parsing jobs when player skill is taken out of the equation." Sure, most players you run into won't be able to do 99th percentile parses, but instead of playing the "well in my experience jobs A B C are bad from puggers," we can instead talk about what the jobs, objectively, are capable of, rank them, and use that as a guideline.

Also, BLM is not hard to play effectively, and its lack of ability to perform well is very over stated. If someone plays BLM poorly, it's not because the job itself has problems, it's the players are, well, playing poorly. So we should be shaming poor play, not shaming any individual job.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

I'm going to respond to this and this alone. Others can read this and treat it as a reply as their quoted comments to me. Choosing the 99th percentile was very intentional. The upper-tier echelon of parses will give you very definitive answers of what the job—not necessarily the average player playing the job—can accomplish. To talk about "well this job has the potential due to player skill" is entirely unhelpful. You can know, say, the best Red Mage ever—they may top your own static's damage metre, but to suggest that they are the top parsing DPS based on that is rather silly. It's the same thing here, when we talk about "well the player can be that, but anecdotally, so many players don't."

It's not helpful, at all. Mostly because your anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean anything.

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You are right about the validity, or lack thereof, of anecdotal evidence but when does anecdotal become reliable - if one person thinks it, or 2 , or three?
It seems that, even going by the small number of replies to you here, that people seem to generally agree that BLM is a challenging DPS role to play to its maximum capacity. Personally i think it's the most challenging given not just the timers and rotation but the fact that it is the job punished most by heavy movement.

If you are pugging an encounter - especially if you are progressing to a first kill, you want to increase the odds of a kill as best you can. Personally I have seen way, way more bad or just OK BLM than I have exceptional ones so I can see why people would rather take another job that even if they don't perform to the higher ends of the DPS spectrum would at least bring something else to the party e.g buffs/reses/raises etc.

I posted in another thread that I think BLM should remain a 'selfish' DPS but the damage potential should be buffed through the roof. Good BLM would be less punished by movement and exceptional BLM would continue to shine.

The problem with PuGing in this game is that without any actual evidence of a players skill readily available to everyone (e.g parsers) people can only build grps on anecdotal evidence and Ilevels.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Choosing the 99th percentile was very intentional. The upper-tier echelon of parses will give you very definitive answers of what the job—not necessarily the average player playing the job—can accomplish.

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That’s fine; I never contested that 99th percentile wasn’t representative of the job’s capabilities. I was just saying that it’s not ideal to try and take 99th percentile logs/parses/play, and apply them to Party Finder, or to the general/average playerbase. 99th percentile is far from average. If we were to, strictly speaking, select a percentile to apply to PF, I would personally recommend 50th. It’s dead-center; average. Use that as a threshold for average play. And I only say that because I think it’s more representative of the types of players one is likely to meet in Party Finder, not because it’s representative of the job’s potential. Again, I think people are talking about player skill/the way they play the job, not the job itself, when they say “most do not have the potential”.

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To talk about "well this job has the potential due to player skill" is entirely unhelpful. You can know, say, the best Red Mage ever—they may top your own static's damage metre, but to suggest that they are the top parsing DPS based on that is rather silly. It's the same thing here, when we talk about "well the player can be that, but anecdotally, so many players don't."

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It’s still important to factor in personal skill, though. I don’t think anyone was saying that the job was limited in terms of what it can do, but what it can do (i.e., the DPS it can push out) is entirely dependent on several factors, one of the biggest, in my opinion, being the skill of the player behind the keyboard. In terms of anecdotes, well, I don’t really consider what I said about 99th percentile play to be anecdotal: being that there is a 99th percentile, it automatically means that 99% of players are below said percentile. In other words, 99% of players do not have that 99th percentile personal potential, but rather a lesser personal potential. I personally don’t think that “the average player” one would find in PF is likely to be a 99th percentile BLM. Sure, you may get some in there that join out of boredom, or just to practice more, but usually PF has more average players than top-tier.

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It's not helpful, at all. Mostly because your anecdotal evidence really doesn't mean anything.

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Again, percentiles aren’t really anecdotal. There being a 99th percentile means that the players in that percentile are better than 99% of the other players being ranked. That’s not anecdotal, it’s statistical. But, hopefully you were using the general “you”, because nowhere in any of my posts was I talking about my personal experiences with PF BLMs.

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Instead, when we look at statistical date, pull out the averages from the top-tier of players, it's much easier to say, "hey, BLM is the top parsing jobs when player skill is taken out of the equation."

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I don’t think anyone in this thread was really contesting that. They were talking about personal potential, not the job’s potential. (“Most BLMs cannot live up to the job’s potential.”). And, it’s the same for any job, really. 99th percentile BRDs are representative of what BRD can do as a job: how much support AND damage it can push out. But, most BRDs will not live up to that potential, be it because they don’t have the skill or just don’t care to. Or that they’re just flat-out bad.

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Sure, most players you run into won't be able to do 99th percentile parses, but instead of playing the "well in my experience jobs A B C are bad from puggers," we can instead talk about what the jobs, objectively, are capable of, rank them, and use that as a guideline.

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This is why I also said using 99th percentile as a appropriate expectation to Party Finder is wrong (the bolded part), because most players you meet in PF will not be top-tier in terms of skill. I also think it’s important to keep in mind that a lot of top parses are min-max optimized, as well as padded by use of things like Balance. Again, that’s not something you’re likely to find in Party Finder, but in statics. Which is why I said that using 99th percentile play, and trying to hold “the average Joe” to it, is bad practice.

EDIT: Ilyrian also brings up a good point in that a lot of people have no other reference, such as a parser or logs, to judge a job on, so they go by their own personal experiences with them. They are more than capable of educating themselves by look at FFLogs, sure, but the majority probably never do that.

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Also, BLM is not hard to play effectively, and its lack of ability to perform well is very over stated. If someone plays BLM poorly, it's not because the job itself has problems, it's the players are, well, playing poorly. So we should be shaming poor play, not shaming any individual job.

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I mean, I agree with you that we should be shaming the poor play rather than the job itself, and I don’t think BLM is in any sort of bad spot as it stands now. It’s pretty damn good from what I’ve seen, especially compared to 4.1 BLM. However, the entire point of my post was just to clarify that people were talking about player skill/personal potential, not the job’s potential. I only pointed that out because you seemed to think they meant the job itself wasn’t top DPS, as opposed to the average player in PF. I don’t think anyone in this thread was saying that BLM, as a job, was in a terrible place. Not from what I saw, anyways.


My original post in this thread still stands: it shitty that people choose to exclude jobs based on a misconception that they are bad. However, we don’t know if that’s what these people were actually doing. Maybe they just wanted a particular comp (example: the meta). We really don’t know. That being said, the party leader was more within their rights to pick whatever jobs they wanted for their party. They could have asked for a V5S clear with all BRDs as DPS, and that would have been fine. Their party, their rules.

People that are bothered by a PF excluding them have remedies for it: they can make their own. Or just find another one that doesn’t care to put up exclusions. For my personal experience with PF, I don’t really see a lot of learning/clear and even weekly groups that exclude jobs. There are some that are set to the meta, yes, but I don’t really think they’re the majority of the parties I click on. At least, not when I’m browsing Aether’s Party Finder.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Choosing the 99th percentile was very intentional.

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95th is a better indicator of a Job's relative strength

99th tends to be about lucky crit strings, 100th/max tends to be both that and heavy stacking of single buffs and favorably mechanic RNG. Also abusing an encounters mechanics should such present itself.

Breaking from 95th to 99th have many many variables in it, ping and luck included. So analyzing 95th gives you a better range of what good players are performing in general. But it's important to look at the whole spectrum anyways.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

snip

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Yes, BLM has the best theoretical DPS. By theoretical, I mean that given the same amount of (high) skill from the player, BLM pulls out the best numbers.

People don't disagree with that, and that's not what repels them. What repels them is that statistically, pugs will be bad to average, and a bad BLM is less useful than a bad DRG. So with that in mind, THAT's why they don't want the "best DPS class" in the group : cause it's only worth if the player is damn good. The motto is "if random guy is playing poorly, might as well take a class that can at least buff me a little and not just be a dead weight".

On the contrary, reasoning like "oh it's said to be the best DPS class, let's take it" is a bit basic imho. True only at high skill level (over 80%). Most High skill level people are in formal statics and don't progress via pug groups. So what would you guess is left in pug groups, statistically speaking ? You'll find some pearls but you don't expect them. Speaking as an average player myself but being realistic here.

When I have to pug, I intentionally give 1 opportunity for SAM/BLM. I do not want a BLM if there is already a SAM. I do not want a SAM if there is already a BLM or MNK. 1 selfish DPS per party is enough, and it's first come first serve :p

To actually answer the OP's questions, however, it should be quite obvious. If I already have a DRG in the party, why would I want a second one? You want to get stuck with completely random parties then that's what the DF is for, have at it. PF is for building your own party comp. And besides, it doesn't effect you in the slightest - the only people losing out are the ones looking for specific comps, these parties take the longest to fill. Whereas if you don't care what the comp is the PF will usually fill up fast. So you can sit around waiting for a specific comp or just YOLO to fill up quick.

Side comment - lol @ Eli85. If BLM is the highest DPS why are they one of the least desired jobs right now? DPS is everything right? RIGHT?? :confused:

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

When I have to pug, I intentionally give 1 opportunity for SAM/BLM. I do not want a BLM if there is already a SAM. I do not want a SAM if there is already a BLM or MNK. 1 selfish DPS per party is enough, and it's first come first serve :p

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When you're playing with pugs, you should just be looking for good players no matter which job they're playing to be honest.

OP hit and ran

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Originally Posted by Shamox

When you're playing with pugs, you should just be looking for good players no matter which job they're playing to be honest.

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You can't exactly do a 20 question interview when looking for people to fill a PF group, though lol

Our monk has starting going ninja and even though his dps is lower on nin I'd still rather have that utility. In general, I agree that good player matters more than the job they play, but the main point is using PF to try to build a specific comp. If I had a brd/mch they should have a drg. If I have a drg/brd/smn there's no point in recruiting for a blm. Etc etc

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

OP hit and ran

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Yea, it's a silly question to ask considering how obvious the answer is.

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Originally Posted by Shamox

When you're playing with pugs, you should just be looking for good players no matter which job they're playing to be honest.

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I do the same of giving a chance but for another reason: most SAM and BLM players you find in PFs are just reaaaaaally bad. MCH too. Since they're the least played jobs you'll most likely run into bad players using them. When you find a good one they're really good though.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I do the same of giving a chance but for another reason: most SAM and BLM players you find in PFs are just reaaaaaally bad. MCH too. Since they're the least played jobs you'll most likely run into bad players using them. When you find a good one they're really good though.

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It's always a treat getting to race another Black Mage.