Just buff Bloodspiller.

It's simple and wouldn't take any effort. Increase its overall potency by 40. So that breaking your TBN will be the same, or if not better than using dark arts. As for OT, you'll be dumping TBN's 6-7k hp shields on the MT every 15 seconds, and of course time them right so they can break and make sure you plan ahead for when a tank buster comes. A 10-12k shield on yourself and a 6-7k shields for the MT every 15ish seconds really adds up on mitigation in the long run.

if i wanted to spam shields on the MT i would play scholar :\

Feels like wow's prot war rotation in legion, so no :s

That's a bad idea. TBN Bloodspillers should be dps neutral, and they pretty much are right now. It's not perfect because of differences in things like fight length or number of TBNs, but the dps difference between never using TBN and using it a lot is almost non-existent.

It shouldn't be a noticeable dps loss because that just means DRKs won't use it (like Inner Beast), but it also shouldn't be a dps gain because that's just going to make DRKs sacrifice mitigation for dps. You'd have to use TBN every 15s to avoid losing some casts, and you'd end up not having it for tankbusters because you already used it 5-10s ago. Holding on to TBN for even a few seconds would be bad because it has such a short cooldown. The way it works now is fine: you can use it for every single tankbuster and as often as want in between, and you'll still end the fight with the same dps as someone that barely used it.

40 is a bit high imo because as others noted it becomes something you have to do to maximize dps. However, raising it something like 20 potency and making it a small positive rather than a small negative and now the skill becomes palatable.

Yeah, as much as I love Bloodspiller's animation and dunking people, that attack needs to stay DPS neutral so TBN doesn't get spammed as previously mentioned.

Now if they want to throw a self-heal on it like Souleater (only this one works out of Grit) I wouldn't be mad at that at all.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

40 is a bit high imo because as others noted it becomes something you have to do to maximize dps. However, raising it something like 20 potency and making it a small positive rather than a small negative and now the skill becomes palatable.

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This on the other hand is fine, neutral but slightly positive is better than neutral but slightly negative.

Or just let it be a shield and remove the MP/Blood relation to it. That's as DPS neutral as you get.

Or when TBN breaks it grants you Dark Arts

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Or when TBN breaks it grants you Dark Arts

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this would indeed make it DPS neutral.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Or just let it be a shield and remove the MP/Blood relation to it. That's as DPS neutral as you get.

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Unfortunately the skill can't be 100% free, otherwise you would use it as often as possible as long as you had it for tank busters.

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Originally Posted by kashi11

Unfortunately the skill can't be 100% free, otherwise you would use it as often as possible as long as you had it for tank busters.

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That's what Dark Knights are expected to do currently anyway, otherwise they're even more gimped as a class. At least as the main tank.

if it should stay dps neutral it should at least provide the same benefit as souleater. absorb hp. maybe mp as well but that would mean more damage in the end.

bloodspiller gained the normal way (not through broken tbn) feels quite underwhelming atm.

I would quite like:
Bloodspiller - additional effect: mimics the additional effect of the last used combo weaponskill.

So depending on whether you used Syphon Strike, Soul eater or Power slash before Bloodspiller you'd either restore some MP, restore some HP and get 10 blood, or generate additional enmity.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I would quite like:
Bloodspiller - additional effect: mimics the additional effect of the last used combo weaponskill.

So depending on whether you used Syphon Strike, Soul eater or Power slash before Bloodspiller you'd either restore some MP, restore some HP and get 10 blood, or generate additional enmity.

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I like this idea, but wouldn't you always want to use Bloodspiller after Syphon Strike if this were the case? And, what if you were to use two Bloodspillers back to back? Would it just mimic the previous Bloodspiller's effect, or not do anything at all? This'd also bring back the DPS-neutral dillema, to which I would suggest to only have the additional effect apply on naturally generated Bloodspillers (though I admit, not sure exactly how they would do this).

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Or when TBN breaks it grants you Dark Arts

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I like this, but I would make it a separate buff that is consumed for the Dark Arts effect as to avoid double stacking it with manual activation (as the server may decide to give it at an unfortunate time).

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

I like this idea, but wouldn't you always want to use Bloodspiller after Syphon Strike if this were the case? And, what if you were to use two Bloodspillers back to back? Would it just mimic the previous Bloodspiller's effect, or not do anything at all? This'd also bring back the DPS-neutral dillema, to which I would suggest to only have the additional effect apply on naturally generated Bloodspillers (though I admit, not sure exactly how they would do this)

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Thinking about it, maybe BS as a combo 'replacer' would be better.

Additional effect: can replace combo action Syphon Strike, Souleater or Power Slash, duplicates the replaced actions additional effect(s).

So if you have 50+ blood, you can go Hard Slash - Bloodspiller - Souleater, BS in this case would restore MP.
Hard Slash - Syphon Strike - Bloodspiller would see BS generate 10 blood (and in Grit restore HP.)
Hard Slash - BS - BS would restore MP, then generate 10 blood and (in grit) restore HP.
Hard Slash itself can't be replaced, if you're not mid-combo Bloodspiller just works same as it does now.

IIRC Bloodspiller works out as a slight DPS decrease over a long enough fight because it delays MP restore and blood generation from your 1-2-3 combo. Letting it slot itself in there and keep the combo moving along would in theory "fix" this.

You're probably right that if it duplicated last additional effect everyone would just hold it for use after syphon, this way it doesn't generate anything extra, it just doesn't slow anything down either.

Are you all serious? DRK is a bloody mess right now, worse than the other two in every possible way and all you ask for is a buff for blood spiller? What about the clunkyness of the class? The messy dark arts spam? The nonsensical animation lock on plunge?

No wonder only war gets decent buffs, they ask for strong buffs, while the DrK playerbase asks for breadcrumbs.

DRKs are too afraid to ask for buffs that would actually make them strong, after all, WARs have to be the alpha dps tanks, even if they already have better mitigation, enmity, and braindead easy rotation.

Oh well, i can already taste the tears that will come when drk gets a 5 pontecy buff to something and se calls it even

DRK -- Forever betamax because their playerbase are too afraid to ask for more.

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Originally Posted by Steinar

DRK -- Forever betamax because their playerbase are too afraid to ask for more.

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Or maybe it's because the REAL playerbase, the guys who KNOW how to play the darn class, know it's position isn't far behind the other tanks. Like it or not, there will always be a tank in third place, and it so happens that's where DRK lies. QoL changes are all it needs, at best.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Or maybe it's because the REAL playerbase, the guys who KNOW how to play the darn class, know it's position isn't far behind the other tanks. Like it or not, there will always be a tank in third place, and it so happens that's where DRK lies. QoL changes are all it needs, at best.

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Less then 14% of the population seems to clear on dark knight and 3/5 fights don't even have a dark knight in the top 100 for tanks, that drops to less than 13% for the later turns. We are also looking at a close to 9% difference in damage now between top dark and top warrior, a gap which continues to rise as the expansion ages and is beyond the natural variation of the game. I also know that a number of those who did raid on dark knight have switched to warrior after prog for speed running. None of these things point to the class being fine. I'm sure there are class fans who want to insist dark knight is fine, but just insisting something "is" doesn't make it reality.

Positing a silent majority of players that "know what they are doing" is nothing more than trying to make people feel bad for requesting their class be looked at and adjusted. It would be nice to actually post some evidence of this "silent elite class".

Based on the number of those players who have been banned from the forums I'm more likely to believe they just cannot say anything.

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Originally Posted by Steinar

Are you all serious? DRK is a bloody mess right now, worse than the other two in every possible way and all you ask for is a buff for blood spiller? What about the clunkyness of the class? The messy dark arts spam? The nonsensical animation lock on plunge?

No wonder only war gets decent buffs, they ask for strong buffs, while the DrK playerbase asks for breadcrumbs.

DRKs are too afraid to ask for buffs that would actually make them strong, after all, WARs have to be the alpha dps tanks, even if they already have better mitigation, enmity, and braindead easy rotation.

Oh well, i can already taste the tears that will come when drk gets a 5 pontecy buff to something and se calls it even

DRK -- Forever betamax because their playerbase are too afraid to ask for more.

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I think I saw posted somewhere on the balance discord that making delirium a trait rather than a cooldown would go a long way to fixing things, i.e 23 seconds of blood weapon, or 31 seconds of blood price, all the time. As well as the QoL buffs like lowering animation locks on plunge and dark arts to make them more double weave friendly. Its still tame, but its something I guess lol. Adding the old foresight back on dark knight as a physical analog to dark mind at a low level would also be a nice addition for the dark knight leveling experience to make it a little less squishy before we get TBN. Take off grit lock from Soul Eater hp restore.

One more time with some more clarity:
(1) Trait Delirium to upgrade blood weapon and blood price automatically.
(2) Lower Animation locks on plunge and dark arts
(3) Add back a physical analog of dark mind for reducing physical damage
(4) Allow for soul eater to replenish hp out of tank stance, but maybe at a reduced rate

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Or maybe it's because the REAL playerbase, the guys who KNOW how to play the darn class, know it's position isn't far behind the other tanks. Like it or not, there will always be a tank in third place, and it so happens that's where DRK lies. QoL changes are all it needs, at best.

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By the way, i have cleared all savage content up to date ( 5s to 7s only as DRK, because no one likes DRK on 8s ). So i guess i know what i'm talking about— better than you do, at least, since the only fight you did as DRK is 6s and you're barely 50%.

It's not "DRK is just third place", it's: DRK is garbage when compared to WAR and PLD, because he brings ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the table, no dps, no utility, no buffs nor debuffs, has less defensive CDs and thus worse mitigation. Is it viable? Yes, it is. Is it optimal? No it is not, in fact, it sucks.

Take for instance 7s fight, where DRK is utter garbage in any role, much lower dps than war as MT and as OT you lose PLD's cover and give a lot more work to your heales when handling prey.

Oh well, i forgot that DRK playerbase has a lot of people like you— who just defend a broken class because they don't want to feel inferior— when in fact they are.

Keep lying to yourself, but the numbers don't lie, and almost no one brings DRK to endgame content nowadays, it's less than half the number of PLDs or WARs.



And @Chrono_Rising, here, have my like.

I got 50th on a fight with no slashing debuff. Factor that in and I probably would be purple.

Oh and I did very well for myself in deltascape, better than you. Careful with what you say.

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

I like this, but I would make it a separate buff that is consumed for the Dark Arts effect as to avoid double stacking it with manual activation (as the server may decide to give it at an unfortunate time).

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Well Discerning Eye on MIN/BTN if it procs from Impulsive Appraisal it greys out Discerning Eye so it can't be double stacked. They could do the same with Dark Arts. When Dark Arts buff is active it is greyed out.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Or when TBN breaks it grants you Dark Arts

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If this were to happen, how would the interplay of TBN and Quietus work when AoE tanking with DRK?
If you're not getting Blood to fuel Quietus from popping TBN, where will the necessary Blood come from considering natural passive generation is likely too slow to keep up with the need?

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

If this were to happen, how would the interplay of TBN and Quietus work when AoE tanking with DRK?
If you're not getting Blood to fuel Quietus from popping TBN, where will the necessary Blood come from considering natural passive generation is likely too slow to keep up with the need?

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I wasn't saying eliminate the blood bonus. I honestly was thinking of granting both. Since Dark Arts is always desired for DPS it may be nice to have passive ways to generate Dark Arts on top of the existing toolkit. You could force it for when you need the extra boost for offense or Defense or get a passive DPS boost just from Dodge/Parries or TBN breaking.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Oh and I did very well for myself in deltascape, better than you. Careful with what you say.

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Oh, how awesome is that? You did better than a character that was used for crafting and RP only ( if you had the trouble to check it right, then you'd know that ) during most of 4.1! Doesn't change the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about and is just shaming yourself here. Also, we're on the same server, if you want to compare logs just hit me up when i'm online, i'll be glad to join you, i'll even let you pick which character/class i'll use. Now, if you have nothing to add to this topic, please, remove yourself, no one cares about how big your e-pen is. You're even at the point where you just seem like an angry troll.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

It would be nice to actually post some evidence of this "silent elite class".

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Gee, I wonder where I could find that....

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I saw posted somewhere on the balance discord

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Ah, how convenient! I'm glad you're familiar with such a resource. Tell you what, how about you ask those guys who's assessment they most agree with, mine, or steinar's? You don't have to report back your findings, but I'm sure you'll be enlightened all the same.

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Originally Posted by Steinar

hit me up when i'm online

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How cute~ You just keep moving that goal post and see how that works out for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Gee, I wonder where I could find that....
Ah, how convenient! I'm glad you're familiar with such a resource. Tell you what, how about you ask those guys who's assessment they most agree with, mine, or steinar's? You don't have to report back your findings, but I'm sure you'll be enlightened all the same.

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Oh easily, there are some extremely vocal and talented people who feel the class is fine just as there are talented and vocal people who feel it could use the buffs. Does that make them right? No. If memory serves, I believe the delirium trait idea was vocalised by Emiin. Granted, I imagine Emiin doesn't feel dark knight needs the buff based on conversations, (If I am being completely honest they would totally say dark knight is fine) but I don't believe that is the be all end all for opinions. There are definitely people who believe the class is absolutely fine, but once again, they aren't the only people who have an opinion. Personally I think for a class to have less in the way of both personal dps and utilities is a huge mistake on the part of the development team and should be corrected. I have also had people in that discord agree with me that dark knight is likely underperforming in its job. Also, you can join the discord yourself, you might be surprised to learn how many have changed to the path of the warrior for their speed clears.

Is the balance discord the be all end all of opinions. No, and some of the opinions put out have been demonstrably wrong. Looks like we need someone to actually take some time and work it out. Who could that be?

Sorry I did my homework. Also if you scroll back far enough in that discord you'll find my linked images for dark knight dps comparison, damage taken, and tank buster's taken compared to warrior and paladin metrics, as well as their dps/mitigation ratio by player. The findings: Dark Knight is in third by a fairly comfortable margin. Based on data, theorycrafting, and execution, I have come to my own conclusions and agree with Steinar.

But again I have fallen for the troll trap. Enjoy discreditting yourself yet again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Ah, how convenient! I'm glad you're familiar with such a resource. Tell you what, how about you ask those guys who's assessment they most agree with, mine, or steinar's? You don't have to report back your findings, but I'm sure you'll be enlightened all the same.

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As someone who doesn't play DRK on the current raid tier, your "assessment" is as worthy of notice as much a ratcatcher's trying to teach a hunter how to put down bears.

Not only that, but you lack manners as well. The very way you type serves as testament to how toxic you are.

> 1st, you say i don't know what i'm talking about, assuming i'm just a "new player" of some sort?
> 2nd, i call you out saying even the ONE log you have of current content for DRK is a tad inferior to mine.
> 3rd, you get salty and then go check older logs from previous content, to try and defend yourself ( ? ) so that your e-pen wouldn't shrink, methinks.
> 4th, you come back, once again, throwing salty stones left and right, i take you care about you "forum reputation" so much that you're about to launch a crusade in defense of your honor?

Anyway... Some of the top DRK players ( from the JP servers at least. ) also agree on the point that DRK currently brings nothing to the table, and there's no point, nor anything to gain by bringing one over WAR/PLD— Even worse, you'd be actually raising by a little the duration of the fight and the ammount of damage taken during some phases.

You're not right with your assumptions, not even a little.

But, if for some miracle, maybe a hidden skill that is unlocked by a super secret quest that only DRK can get and only you know how to grab it— that would raise DRK dps and/or group utility, thus making you right, even then, we would still be entitled to our opinion, like everyone else is— even you.

But then again, numbers don't lie, DRK numbers are going down more and more with each passing day, and so are the groups willing to take DRKs to endgame content.

Even you, that claims DRK is fine and just needs QOL buffs— almost like saying people should just "git gud", yes, even you is not playing DRK in the current raid tier.

So, what's the matter? Did you not "git gud" enough? Or is that you prefer rolling with WAR and PLD that bring more to the table? ( And quite frankly, are a lot easier to play. )

Cheers, and go see a doctor or something, your salt levels are sky high!

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

But again I have fallen for the troll trap. Enjoy discreditting yourself again.

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First you ask who is this 'silent elite,' and I provide where you can find the source, then confirm that their beliefs are more in line with mine, yet somehow I'm discredited? :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

First you ask who is this 'silent elite,' and I provide where you can find the source, then confirm that their beliefs are more in line with mine, yet somehow I'm discredited? :thinking:

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I said some agree and some disagree. They aren't silent about it and are definately not all of 1 mind, nice try at twisting the truth again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

Oh easily, there are some extremely vocal and talented people who feel the class is fine just as there are talented and vocal people who feel it could use the buffs.

...

But again I have fallen for the troll trap. Enjoy discreditting yourself yet again.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steinar

Even you, that claims DRK is fine and just needs QOL buffs— almost like saying people should just "git gud", yes, even you is not playing DRK in the current raid tier.

So, what's the matter? Did you not "git gud" enough? Or is that you prefer rolling with WAR and PLD that bring more to the table? ( And quite frankly, are a lot easier to play. )

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I play WAR because it's been my main since the start? At this point, my WAR has a 270 axe while DRK is still using byakko's. If I want to deal with pugs for my weekly clears and prog, then of course I'm going to use the class that I'm most familiar with and has the better weapon. If both were equally as geared, I'd be using both equally. But hey, that's neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is you tried to discredit me, and I refuted your point. Suddenly you shift to saying I'm trying to brag about e-peen, when I'm simply trying to establish my credentials?

Don't be a silly billy.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

At this point, my WAR has a 270 axe while DRK is still using byakko's.

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I am sorry but you're just making yourself look bad in this thread and you just proved Steinar and Chrono correct. If DRK is better or equal to WAR why did you not give the DRK the 270 weapon first?

If DRK was fun to play more people would be playing it and gearing it out first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I play WAR because it's been my main since the start? At this point, my WAR has a 270 axe while DRK is still using byakko's. If I want to deal with pugs for my weekly clears and prog, then of course I'm going to use the class that I'm most familiar with and has the better weapon. If both were equally as geared, I'd be using both equally. But hey, that's neither here nor there. The fact of the matter is you tried to discredit me, and I refuted your point. Suddenly you shift to saying I'm trying to brag about e-peen, when I'm simply trying to establish my credentials?

Don't be a silly billy.

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Soooo... Your "credentials" are as follows: "I'm most intimate with WAR, and i don't play DRK on the current raid tier." Yet you still think you know best what players that main DRK need/want, and refuses to accept anything but what you find to be right?

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but your "credentials" mean nothing, you just proved my point.

Also, the majority of DRK players agrees that they need more than QOL btw, that is a fact, not something up for debate, once again >THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE<.

But of course, there are people like you too, who think QOL is all DRK needs, and even some people that think DRK is fine as it is, half of those people main WAR/PLD, the other half are too afraid that if they accept that DRK is broken ( in a bad way. ), they will stop finding groups and such.

Also, this argument is getting really boring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I am sorry but you're just making yourself look bad in this thread and you just proved Steinar and Chrono correct. If DRK is better or equal to WAR why did you not give the DRK the 270 weapon first?

If DRK was fun to play more people would be playing it and gearing it out first.

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Read the first first sentence in the quote. It answers your first question. I said DRK is in third place. This is not the same as implying it's equal to WAR. DRK is fun, but WAR is more fun to me. However, just because I main WAR and prefer WAR does not mean I don't understand DRK, just as Chrono mains PLD but understands DRK in his own way. Whatever hypocrisy you're trying to imply is absurd!

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Originally Posted by Steinar

Also, the majority of DRK players agrees that they need more than QOL btw, that is a fact.

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That ad populum argument means squat, the majority of DRK players (or players in general) are bad, and that's a fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hierro

That ad populum argument means squat, the majority of DRK players (or players in general) are bad, and that's a fact.

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So, let me see if i get you right:

If the vast majority of PAYING customers are not satisfied with something, it means nothing, because they are "bad" and thus, only the "Elite" ( even if a lot of people of said "Elite" also agree that DRK is just plain garbage atm ) are the only ones worthy of asking for improvements.

Meaning, the "Elite's" money is worth more than the higher ammount of money that comes from the vast majority of said customers, because, after all, they are "bad", and thus mean nothing and don't deserve to be heard.

As such, the "bad" paying customers should just keep quiet and paying their subs, so that the servers can keep on existing, so that "elite" that doesn't ammount to even 1% of the total playerbase, can have their "fun"?

Interesting... Isn't that what we call Fascism?

Anyway, i think i don't have to say anything else, you do a better job at proving my point than i can ever do myself.


Quick edit here: The very reason SE decided to rework some of WAR's skills was because it was "too hard" for the average player to keep up with the rotation and burst windows, even tho most of the "elite" said it was fine and in a good place after SiO rework— and now you have that braindead war rotation, that even my granny can do. ( That and because Xeno kept QQing about how CH and DH affected WAR so much, but whatever. )

Ah, yes, the old "call any opinion that doesn't allign with yours facist" strategy.

Let's not pretend that balance should be dictated entirely by "But I paid my sub!"

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Ah, yes, the old "call any opinion that doesn't allign with yours facist" strategy.

Let's not pretend that balance should be dictated entirely by "But I paid my sub!"

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I never called you a fascist ( it's written with SC, by the way. ), god forbid. But what you said is the very definition of it, so i just felt like pointing it out. ( Miss me with that political crap btw. )

If you think i'm wrong, then do a quick research and check if what you said isn't exactly the same.

And yes, SE has to please everyone, that's the very reason why they tweaked war skills, "Elite's" aren't enough to keep the server going, else we wouldn't have casual content nor catch-up mechanics. ( *cough* *cough* Eureka *cough* *cough* )

If a class is underperforming then it's not fine, it has to be fixed, all classes have to bring their own flavor, yes, but they also have to be ballanced, that's a given in every game— being viable is not being balanced. If you have to do more to achieve inferior or even the same results, then it's not ballanced— thus, not okay.

Anyway, let's bring another big MMORPG as comparison, let's say... World of Warcraft?

Do they ballance content around the "elite"? — No.

Do they have large gaps in skill floor/effectiveness of roles? — No.

Well, well... I think the most successful mmorpg up to date at least got something right, didn't it?

I can keep going, but i seriously would rather go back to crafting stuff...

All of the tank jobs are some of the most boring iterations of 'Tanks' that I've seen implemented in an MMO.

Dark Knight is just the worst offender.