“Don't like poor play? Use a static!” thoughts

I’ve had iterations of this shouted at me by rabid forum-goers and party members alike when I have either dared to offer advice during a duty or dared to complain about the skill of the playerbase as a whole after some frustrating experiences. Like any argument that can be turned on it's head and defeated I’ve done just that - “Don't like critique and effort? Use PF to find other poor players,” is a perfectly fine response to that in my opinion.

If we take this assertion out of the context of winning a pointless argument though… it’s a lot more interesting of a suggestion and one I may have passively adopted, at least in part.

I’m in an FC comprised predominantly of players more senior and skilled than myself. I’m also part of a discord that has some friends from the forum and outside of it of which I would place myself still nowhere near the top of.

Playing with these two groups of similarly or better skilled players is absolutely wonderful. I can trust everyone to perform their job, put the group first and either understand the fight or ask questions/inform themselves. Many of the more experienced players have statics and are progressing later stage Savage but that hasn't stopped some of them from helping with Byakko/earlier Savage clears, it's just a really positive environment.

In my own way I’ve taken the advice of those salty little forum monsters who tell me to not have standards outside of people I know - I have sequestered myself in a bastion of competence, the walls of which have been thick enough to mostly protect me from the shambling masses.

Is that actually good though?

Occasionally I still don my DF cloak alone and wander into the scary dark to see things like zero DPS healers, OTs in tank stance and the illustrious Ice Mage. The difference now is that I'm all the more startled and frustrated by people making these mistakes because on literally a daily basis I play with people who don't.

It's hard for me to say as one person whether or not my exposure to the finer things in life has left me more irritable when confronted with the player-equivalent of mac & cheese and hot dogs but I think it's something that bears discussing. We are all inevitably going to use DF sometimes - is more frequent exposure better at dulling the sense of ‘dear god why is that AST in Noct with a SCH cohealer’ or am I such a toxic elitist for even having that thought that I should huddle with my own kind and not expose the playerbase to my rampant, harsh judgments?

I’m curious to hear from anyone in a similar situation - do you feel like playing with more reasonable players makes you dread DFing things? ‘Cause I am considering not DPSing in DF content without a healer I know now after some bad healer experiences. I wonder if I would have that same train of thought if I didn't know so many amazing healers.

4 players might upset me mistakes so forth might upset me I usually don't say anything and just go along with it. In other words I just try to run the dungeon and try to complete it if I'm removed because entire group decided to leave the dungeon and I will usually just Q up again. Does it make me dread using Duty Finder no I just use it again until I complete my objective.

I will admit though it is nice running with a static because everyone's on the same level if you will everyone knows each other able to communicate and things usually go pretty well but as long as there's some communication I'd say any run can be done pretty well even if you do have players that aren't performing very well.

I had that thought for a while. I'll be honest. I'm not nice when it comes to criticism for other people. Though the dread for pf exists, I've grown to the point where I don't care anymore. Good, bad, it doesn't matter, but I always expect the worst from a player in all content, in all instances, and in all situations. Not only do I expect failure, I expect the mistakes made to be the very reason that content isn't cleared.

Most just don't care to improve, and it was painfully obvious when I began out dps'ing others that were in raid or full gear for a patch on off classes that I dabbled in, not best in slot or with raid gear. If people are still playing badly in Stormblood, they are a lost cause. I firmly believe that if they couldn't figure it out or have some basic idea after one expansion and the base game, there is nothing to improve since they do not want to improve. The only way to make those that don't care to improve is to have MSQ force them to, which is not really in the realm of possibility for this game.

There's some nice people at least, maybe some that might ask from people that don't care for playing at a higher level. That's fine, and it's nice to chat with them. But I expect dps from the last expansion or even from several patches ago since that is a pass for casual content. So why bother stressing over it? Duty finder is duty finder. So long as the other person can press 1-2-3, then it's fine for that content. I try to have my expectations to be bare minimum since if I wanted to analyze and critique every single piece of content, I would have stopped playing this game a long time ago. I do what I can to analyze as little of other people as possible when it comes to non raid content (anything not savage pretty much), and even then I avoid it unless it's obvious mistakes, and not having to do with mechanics (health/stress/fatigue/etc.)

This is pretty much it for me. I joined a static (I'm really not a fan of statics/scheduling my game time like that but I found one that I don't dread logging in for weekly clears with) and have been rarely doing things without at least one friend that I know, usually more than one. If I'm really desperate or have time to waste then I may venture outside my closed circle but I basically keep to myself and people I know to be competent nowadays.

I know where you are coming from, I feel the same way. Running things with a good group from discord has made me realize I've been dealing with a lot of garbage since ARR. I have been finding myself to be a tad more irritable in situations, and have found myself speaking up more when I feel someone is massively under performing.

For example: I called out an AST earlier who, on top of not DPS very much (using gravity on a single mob?) and spamming Benefic(II), only used 1 card and held another during an hour run of Eureka. I'm getting sick of carrying people and playing with certain people has made me realize this more than ever.

I know I'm not the greatest in the group, but the group has helped boost my ego. It's helped me agree to try to break from my comfort zone and try new things, but again it's also caused me to be a tad more testy with PUGs. I'm generally really easygoing and nice, but I've been finding I've been getting more blunt and straightforward toward those who tick me off. A major part of it is the trust that comes with the group. Like you mentioned, you know the others in the group will do their job, and will put the group first. This is a huge jump from PUGs who sometimes seem more interested in trying to break the record of doing as little as possible and still get a clear.

It's just a matter of setting expectations for each group (DF and PF I mean) and most importantly, accepting those expectations beforehand. If you find yourself unable to accept the lottery that entails DF but still continue to march on, it's normal to find yourself irritated, especially if you regularly use a static/PF.

I think that's why I've personally stopped caring about who does what in DF roulette so long as it actually doesn't hinder or strain my runs. Or rather, to be specific, I've stopped setting standards for DF. I know people will say "But Vice, you should say something when you encounter an ice mage". Believe me, I do. I'll tell that blm to use fire spells and shrug. I don't say it in hopes he becomes a better player. That's reserved for sprouts in the early dgns. I say it because I need to know if I'm going to have to adjust. That's it. I've basically been shrugging off bad play for a long time because the alternative is being angry and I don't like the idea of being angry about people who don't care how they play. It's even worse knowing that they'll just go on about their day, satisfied with the run completion while I'm still seething in my chair.

So yeah, in a nutshell, me having very very low expectations of DF has actually saved my sanity and left me carefree as a bird.

Look at what's expected from players: they complained about Titan Hard being tied to the relic, so the relic has no challenge ever since. They complained about Steps of Faith, so it was nerfed (you actually have people on the forum saying they don't have a keyboard or typing is too hard on the PS4 so basic communication in party chat was just too much to ask). The difficulty of "expert" dungeons are so low that in a lot of fights the healer can die at 50% of the boss's HP and the tank / DPS can down it without the healer being present.

Know why Ozma was hard? Here's why: People don't know left from right.

When you set the bar so low in player expectation, you're going to get a terrible experience from the average player in group content that has actual difficulty. Moreover, your randoms in difficult content seem to lack emotional maturity, interpersonal skills, and the patience to stick around and learn rather than disband while looking for a carry.

A static can help with all of that of course. I don't have the time for a static these days. But I also don't have the time to deal with any of the above either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VanilleFang

For example: I called out an AST earlier who, on top of not DPS very much (using gravity on a single mob?) and spamming Benefic(II), only used 1 card and held another during an hour run of Eureka. I'm getting sick of carrying people and playing with certain people has made me realize this more than ever.

---

You can't expect people to be better if everybody just complain instead of trying to give advice on how to improve.

For the statement of the thread it's both right or wrong.
It's right because DF is a place where you will meet a lot of different people ( good, bad, new..) and if you can't accept someone to make mistake then yes don't use it.
However DF shouldn't be a safespace for people to be bad and not willing to improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krokov

4 players might upset me mistakes so forth might upset me I usually don't say anything and just go along with it. In other words I just try to run the dungeon and try to complete it if I'm removed because entire group decided to leave the dungeon and I will usually just Q up again. Does it make me dread using Duty Finder no I just use it again until I complete my objective.

---

This is the actitude i have and the right one in my opinion. Dont overthink too much. Dont get mad if they make you lose time. Dont overanalyze their gear and performance. You do your best on your own and thats all. If you find some efficient group to do it, thats good too. Its the best if you have to farm. But unless you specifically need that efficiency, try to no think about it. There are all sort of characters. Some are poor playing cause they are new and thats natural. Some play the game casually. They all dont do it intentionally, you have to be patient

Sometimes PUGS are better. I’m not gonna lie.

I understand the frustrations of not knowing what you’re going to run into when you DF PUG, but I just gotta ask one thing:

What the actual !$&@ is wrong with Mac n Cheese w/ Hotdogs?! Especially good Mac n cheese w/ good hotdogs, seriously now...

My twin actually enjoys doing harder content just so they can watch people die and then complete the content with men down. Not that they don't heal, but rather when others fail they find joy in watching them die. I'm the inverse, silently finding fault with everyone because I am an elitist . Though even as an elitist I recognize that I am and I don't treat people poorly or complain unless someone first complains at me. I also help if help is requested, but otherwise don't bother. I think though that it may be I am so conceited that I care little for others to the point of it being ok to deal with 'the peasantry'. Stuck up and full of myself sure, but I won't put you down or be a jerk unless you ask for the honesty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I’m curious to hear from anyone in a similar situation - do you feel like playing with more reasonable players makes you dread DFing things?

---

No. I expect people from DF and PF to be average at best, and I'm pleasantly surprised when they're better than that.

Keep your expectations realistic. People who play together often and can communicate with voice chat will most times be better than random people you meet. You don't know how random people play and they don't know how you play. You also generally are not in voice chat with random people. Of course the experience with them is far less likely to be amazing. These people are strangers and you can't communicate with them as easily.

You already know how I feel about poor play and the player base, and I got labeled an elitist for it...which is fine. It's one thing in leveling dungeons, and I have a much higher tolerance with sprouts...but for players that aren't sprouts and/or are not new in any sense of the word, I do have the expectation of average play. Unfortunately, it seems bad play is reinforced with silence, and a lot of attempts to correct that are met with claims of harassment or apathy on the part of the person you're generally trying to help. Recently, I have to admit, I'm starting to grow apathetic now. Seems like I should fall in line like a lot of other folks and just accept it for what it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Seems like I should fall in line like a lot of other folks and just accept it for what it is.

---

To be fair, the other thing reinforcing bad play is that the DF dgns are all designed to be completed with minimal gameplay. That's SE's direction and M.O. when they create these dgns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

To be fair, the other thing reinforcing bad play is that the DF dgns are all designed to be completed with minimal gameplay. That's SE's direction and M.O. when they create these dgns.

---

I suppose you could say I'm starting to feel disillusioned in general. My feelings extend far beyond dungeons, tho...

You'd end up in statics no matter what you did. If you made the game harder, those healers you dislike would prevent you from even running the instance successfully due to wipes. Or worse, there simply wouldn't be enough people willing to heal because of the difficulty. The way the game is now, the players who don't meet your skill threshold can at least play it; otherwise the game would just sort them out like it does with ex and savage content and people would just level alts instead of bothering with any endgame (which happened in FFXI some.)

there hasn't really been any hard, successful MMO. EVE online isn't even that hard, but there is a rep about full loot pvp that has persisted even though losses in EVE are trivial since you end up only flying ships to the level that you can replace them. The first time you lose that shiny new interceptor to a gate camp teaches you that. So you end up with a lot of people in relatively low-skill low difficulty roles, like mining or tackle, or disposable cruisers. And they rarely step out of "safe" gameplay.

This game really doesn't have that sort of flexibility. With FFXI you can just bring more people to a raid if you suck, and newbies could be raise bots or what have you, while the high skilled players main tank. Here its just everyone has to fufill their role perfectly or you wipe, so the bar is set low as to not make basic endgame impossible for many people. Idk why people keep raging against this; the higher the bar the worse the experience until all the low skill people just get sorted out of it.

So far nobody has called me bad but, I wish somebody would observe me and say "hey, would you maybe like a few pointers"
On the off chance somebody does call me bad, it's not very convincing with out proper criticism. (though I can't think of much advice I could receive as a healer, I do my job and can chat at the same time while dpsing or being lazy x3

All that said, when I do offer any advice for some reason it sometimes comes off to xxxxx person that I think they suck sadly.

There are some really nice, fun and nice to be around "bad players" who you can meet, I think it's a good trade for your sterotypical Veteran players.

No.
I don't want to hurt anybody there, but I think OP thinking is a little pretentious.

So you're usually playing with first league football players.
This sunday, if you're playing with some random people on the beach, will you get frustrated at them because they're no good ?
Will you give them advice so that they get as good as the pro league players you usually play with ?
You get it ?
They will most probably not care.
They will eventually tell you : "give us break, go get a beer dude..."
Yea, you're surely right, they lack skill, teamwork, class...
But they don't care, it's sunday, and they're just wasted, trying to play a game while eating barbecue...

Roulette is exactly the same thing.
Can't you "elites" get that in your head ?

In the end, OP's post is useless as "bad players" don't even give a dam about what he thinks, or about all his strategizing/theorycrafting...
But it looks like some people need to have others know that they are "good" players encountering "bad" players....
I guess it gives them some confidence or a reason to show off :/

Don't want poor play ? Use a static.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I’m curious to hear from anyone in a similar situation - do you feel like playing with more reasonable players makes you dread DFing things?

---

Pretty much. I really dislike having to play worse in order to cater to a party that doesn't want to put effort in. It's also pretty depressing seeing the amount of dps in expert roulette who do less damage than the tank and/or healer for the entire run; after the buff to war, I've found that running expert with 4 warriors is typically faster than queuing solo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moogly

No.
I don't want to hurt anybody there, but I think OP thinking is a little pretentious.

So you're usually playing with first league football players.
This sunday, if you're playing with some random people on the beach, will you get frustrated at them because they're no good ?
Will you give them advice so that they get as good as the pro league players you usually play with ?
You get it ?
They will most probably not care.
They will eventually tell you : "give us break, go get a beer dude..."
Yea, you're surely right, they lack skill, teamwork, class...
But they don't care, it's sunday, and they're just wasted, trying to play a game while eating barbecue...

Roulette is exactly the same thing.
Can't you "elites" get that in your head ?

In the end, OP's post is useless as "bad players" don't even give a dam about what he thinks, or about all his strategizing/theorycrafting...
But it looks like some people need to have others know that they are "good" players encountering "bad" players....
I guess it gives them some confidence or a reason to show off :/

Don't want poor play ? Use a static.

---

Going with your example (assuming you're talking about football as in everywhere not in the US football), what if a few of those guys playing casually on the beach were just kicking the ball and standing there or standing in front of the goal making an obviously half-assed attempt to block a shot as goalie. What if they were putting in just minimal enough effort that you could confirm they were still alive and not dead on their feet but not much else? I'm pretty sure their fellow drunken players would still take up issue with them putting the bare minimum effort to be considered a being thats alive and can move. "Kick the ball with your foot", "you should probably aim for the goal instead of someone's car", "move with the ball don't just stand there like a mannequin", and "actually try to block a shot that's coming your way at a snail's pace". Is advice like that considered essential to becoming a "first league pro" or is it simply the bare minimum to play the game with others?

Most of our problem lies with people who stand in the obvious circle that shouldn't be stood in (aka standing in bad), using single target moves when aoe moves are confirmed better by anyone with two eyes that can read (and a calculator for those less mathematically inclined like myself), and standing around doing nothing as healers or spamming heals on someone who hasn't lost even half of what that heal would restore. Just changing these things is in league with the bare minimum to be considered by most reasonable people (even if they're drunk out of their minds) to be playing the game. Nobody expects random people to be world class players but why is hitting a button that's a few centimeters over from the one you're currently hitting, not standing in very obvious geometry, or just hitting buttons at all considered something so beyond people's capabilities?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Moogly

Don't want poor play ? Use a static.

---

We're in the same loop that OP mentioned initially:

Don't want the potentiality of your play to be critiqued? Use a static.

Generally speaking, no one is asking for "pro league" players, nor do they even consider themselves to be "elites." I can only speak for myself, but if I see people attempting to move out of bad, a healer trying to throw out DPS here and there, and the tank blowing defensive cooldowns when necessary, I call it a pretty successful PUG.

It goes both ways though. Some people are hyper critical and some people are hyper sensitive.

Okay there's a lot to unpack here. If you don't read all of this or respond to me that's perfectly understandable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

In my own way I’ve taken the advice of those salty little forum monsters who tell me to not have standards outside of people I know - I have sequestered myself in a bastion of competence, the walls of which have been thick enough to mostly protect me from the shambling masses.

---

First of all, you're calling people salty because they didn't listen to you and accuse them for being mad that you have standards (and are therefore assuming that they don't). You might be dramatizing this for a comedic effect, but for having a serious conversation about this this really isn't the way to go about it. You can't expect people to react to your criticisms well if you belittle people like that (even if you didn't mean it that way, it comes off that way).

And that's something I noticed in the responses in Kaiva's thread discussing the player base's overall skill level (not Kaiva herself mind you). A lot of people, including you, claim you try to give advice to players performing poorly, and almost every time you get snapped at for it. And as such, you've lost faith in helping people.

Have you ever wondered if your delivery of said advice is coming off as rude to these people you're trying to help?

I ask this because someone in that thread accused Kaiva of potentially doing the same thing, and you jumped to her defense saying she has fantastic intentions. And I believe you. And I believe you have the best intentions too.

But what you and a lot of other forum members forget is that you know each other. So if someone types "You're doing your rotation wrong," (crude example) you know that it comes from a good place and that you/a person from here mean to help.

But to a person who lives across the country from you? Potentially across the world? Who has never met you? To them they're already in a situation they might not like and might already be aware they're performing poorly. So if someone just types "you're doing your rotation wrong," with no other context to fill the void it comes off as judgmental and rude.

"But dungeons go too fast to type more than that," someone might counter.

And all I can say is this: whose fault is that? Newbies don't set the pace of the dungeons. The vets who do most of the complaining do. Like it or not we set up this fast paced "go go go go" environment that doesn't encourage people asking or accepting help while in instanced content. If you want people to listen to you, then you have to learn how to communicate properly with strangers. And if you can't do that, then yeah, you're better off playing with just friends.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Is that actually good though?

---

I don't understand what the problem is in the first place. You've found a group of people you enjoy playing with. You're the one who is voluntarily stepping into duty finder with the mindset that these people won't live up to your standards. You're setting yourself up to get upset and angry with people. If anything it's better you're not in Duty Finder for your own emotional health.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

No. I expect people from DF and PF to be average at best, and I'm pleasantly surprised when they're better than that.

Keep your expectations realistic. People who play together often and can communicate with voice chat will most times be better than random people you meet. You don't know how random people play and they don't know how you play. You also generally are not in voice chat with random people. Of course the experience with them is far less likely to be amazing. These people are strangers and you can't communicate with them as easily.

---

I deeply appreciate this quote and touched on this in the other thread too. While this is an unofficial census, there are roughly 230,000 active characters on the North American data centers alone: https://ffxivcensus.com/

Even if half of those are alts, that's still roughly 100,000 people with unique backgrounds, personalities, ages, and other things you risk playing with when you enter the duty finder.

Now which sounds more plausible to you? Getting 100,000 strangers that, frankly, don't care about you to play to your standards? Or finding an FC that enjoys the same gameplay that you do? That will care about you as a person?

I don't know about you, but the latter sounds like the battle you're going to win.

Yes players should know the basics and be willing to work with others. However I have played this game off and on for years now and I have never ran into ice mages or people who didn't use their job stones on purpose. I'm sure they exist, I'm not saying your experiences aren't valid. But when the same 20-30 people on the forums keep shouting about the same experiences you create an echo chamber that stretches the truth by a heck of a lot. That goes for any community.

Now I have ran into the dps who will pull instead of the tank. I have ran into the tank that will blast off without waiting for heals/buffs/what have you. Do you know what you do with those players? Call them out. Vote kick. Or for heaven's sake you leave. Even as a DPS I've taken the penalty because I didn't want to deal with jerks who didn't want to listen to the party. Sometimes the stress of the run isn't worth it, I'll go do something else in game.

Long post short: yeah, get a static or an FC is valid advice. There's nothing wrong with it. Every single other MMO seems to adopt this concept just fine. This is the first one I've encountered in 11 years where the official forum community had such an aversion to this concept.

You are never going to get 100k+ people to play your way (or even competently). It's impossible. If you can't handle that, play in a static. And yes, that goes for people who play poorly too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Snip~ sorry got this from some 1 else xD

---

Just from reading the above I can say that I met a crown once who was doing "mentor roullete" whom pretty much wined at everybody why they don't just read guides in advance, I ended up advising the mentor to give advice for the fight, which I'll give it him he gave advice in the end (after a debate)
Shiva ex by the way

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

It's hard for me to say as one person whether or not my exposure to the finer things in life has left me more irritable when confronted with the player-equivalent of mac & cheese and hot dogs but I think it's something that bears discussing.

---

You are unfairly slandering mac & cheese and hot dogs here. I think the better analogy would be something like "mall food court chinese food".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frizze

You are unfairly slandering mac & cheese and hot dogs here. I think the better analogy would be something like "mall food court chinese food".

---

Some of my favorite chinese food has been from the food court at the mall though. Definitely agree that mac & cheese and hot dogs is being unfairly slandered here. Middle school lunchroom food maybe?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoodRat

Pretty much. I really dislike having to play worse in order to cater to a party that doesn't want to put effort in. It's also pretty depressing seeing the amount of dps in expert roulette who do less damage than the tank and/or healer for the entire run; after the buff to war, I've found that running expert with 4 warriors is typically faster than queuing solo.

---

And how are people supposed to know how well they're doing compared to others in a game that doesn't provide them with that information?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by F_Maximillian

Most of our problem lies with people who stand in the obvious circle that shouldn't be stood in (aka standing in bad), using single target moves when aoe moves are confirmed better by anyone with two eyes that can read (and a calculator for those less mathematically inclined like myself), and standing around doing nothing as healers or spamming heals on someone who hasn't lost even half of what that heal would restore. Just changing these things is in league with the bare minimum to be considered by most reasonable people (even if they're drunk out of their minds) to be playing the game. Nobody expects random people to be world class players but why is hitting a button that's a few centimeters over from the one you're currently hitting, not standing in very obvious geometry, or just hitting buttons at all considered something so beyond people's capabilities?

---

Standing in bad I can agree with as a player issue or a PC issue. I have terrible lag so I do end up getting hit by bad I thought I had moved out of in time so I just avoid doing instanced group content instead of being a drag on the rest of the group. Hopefully I can get a new PC before much longer, at which point I'll start doing the instanced group content again.

But if AoE abilities deal more damage in single target situations or even in some situations where there are only 2 targets present, there's a problem with the job design. Single target abilities should deal the most damage to a single target while AoE abilities should deal a lesser amount of damage per target (though greater overall damage if there are multiple targets).

As for healing a target when the target has lost less than half the health the heal will replace, that's another issue with the game design. If I look at a heal and it says potency is 400, how am I to know how much healing it will actually deliver? At a low level, it might deliver 100 healing. At a higher level, it might deliver 2,000. Eventually someone who keeps their eyes plastered to their combat log will figure out that at their unsynced level, it will deal X amount of healing (at least until their gear changes or they level up) but in the meantime their eyes aren't paying attention to what's going on while they figure that out and if they're synced to a lower level, they're still going to be playing a guessing game.

If they heal too soon, they get yelled at for healing too soon instead of DPSing. If they wait too long, they get yelled at for not healing. When no matter what you do when you're trying your best others are going to yell at you for the smallest reasons, people aren't going to perform well. It's even worse when the people doing the yelling are people who are performing just as badly if not worse.

Not everyone is good at critical thinking, nor do they expect to have to be that way in a game being played for fun. Transparency in how the game actually works goes far into creating better players rather than expecting them to keep trying to figure things out through trial and error. The latter appeals to only a small segment of players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yenyen

snip

---

Which is a real shame because most mentors I've come across do legitimately do their best to help folks. But bad apples like your example tend to paint them in a bad light :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Which is a real shame because most mentors I've come across do legitimately do their best to help folks. But bad apples like your example tend to paint them in a bad light :/

---

I've run into so many mentors that do nothing but belittle people and make the player base so toxic that (in HW) 2 new players I worked hard to get to join me in this game flat out quit.

We told the "mentor" that we had 2 new people. No response, no explanations, no patience for the new players. When they died, the "mentor" told them to quit playing and shoot themselves in the face.

Ever since then, I've always preferred to avoid playing with mentors as much as possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Suetan124

snip

---

Holy cow! I'm so sorry that you and those newbies had to deal with someone like that :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DreadRabbit

Holy cow! I'm so sorry that you and those newbies had to deal with someone like that :(

---

Yeah, so if I seem a little short with or unforgiving of people that mainly play MMOs as I am in other topics here, this is a big part of why I'm like that.

I want to get into savage raiding, but I refuse to put up with treatment like that. Also, my work schedule changes frequently, so a static isn't much of an option since my being there is completely dependent on when I have to work.

Honestly, I feel like the logic here ought to work the other way.

Having a static allows for compromise and alternate methods.

Solo, e.g. DF, responsibility requires simple, memorable, and generally uncompromising strategies -- where what is simple coincidentally pairs closely with what is optimal in many Savage fights -- and personal awareness enough to function without relying on communication from others, including trained unspoken communication from particular others, except where such is part of effective general habits.

Logically, more should be expected from running solo. A PF then allows inferior or dependent (e.g. "heed the raid voice") play if they so choose. Though they are also free to attempt to pick the cream of the crop, the remainder still have no excuse to be incapable of sufficient fight understanding and awareness, with whatever necessary practice, when running without a static. There's is technically the harder path. So why would you go into it requiring less from yourself just because you're now alone?

Oh wait, the JP community already said all this in a much simpler manner:
- Premades for learning; RF only if you're personally responsible. Burden Join (other wholly capable) randoms only when you're ready to farm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jojoya

And how are people supposed to know how well they're doing compared to others in a game that doesn't provide them with that information?

Standing in bad I can agree with as a player issue or a PC issue. I have terrible lag so I do end up getting hit by bad I thought I had moved out of in time so I just avoid doing instanced group content instead of being a drag on the rest of the group. Hopefully I can get a new PC before much longer, at which point I'll start doing the instanced group content again.

But if AoE abilities deal more damage in single target situations or even in some situations where there are only 2 targets present, there's a problem with the job design. Single target abilities should deal the most damage to a single target while AoE abilities should deal a lesser amount of damage per target (though greater overall damage if there are multiple targets).

As for healing a target when the target has lost less than half the health the heal will replace, that's another issue with the game design. If I look at a heal and it says potency is 400, how am I to know how much healing it will actually deliver? At a low level, it might deliver 100 healing. At a higher level, it might deliver 2,000. Eventually someone who keeps their eyes plastered to their combat log will figure out that at their unsynced level, it will deal X amount of healing (at least until their gear changes or they level up) but in the meantime their eyes aren't paying attention to what's going on while they figure that out and if they're synced to a lower level, they're still going to be playing a guessing game.

If they heal too soon, they get yelled at for healing too soon instead of DPSing. If they wait too long, they get yelled at for not healing. When no matter what you do when you're trying your best others are going to yell at you for the smallest reasons, people aren't going to perform well. It's even worse when the people doing the yelling are people who are performing just as badly if not worse.

Not everyone is good at critical thinking, nor do they expect to have to be that way in a game being played for fun. Transparency in how the game actually works goes far into creating better players rather than expecting them to keep trying to figure things out through trial and error. The latter appeals to only a small segment of players.

---

I can understand if people are having either connection/fps lag for standing in bad but most people who truly do say something about it. A lot of the time it's people looking at something on a second monitor and giving 5% of their attention to the game. Obviously I was talking about aoe being better in situations that would call for aoe not spamming aoes on a boss or whatnot. All it takes to find out the break point for that is two eyes and basic math to see if one option is better than the other and you can apply it to every situation you encounter from there.

For healing a target, your heal amounts don't differ wildly day to day. It's not like one day your cure 2 hits for 12k in an expert roulette and then 2k in that same dungeon the day after. If someone has no clue how much their heals can heal for on average they need to start looking at their screen (which is one of the main problems). I don't think anyone expects someone to clutch calculate potency but you should have an idea of how much healing needs to be done.

If a tank's hp bar is at 90% and you have regens up you really don't need to be spamming cure on them just in case your cure suddenly decides to call in sick that day. Most content outside of extreme primals/savage have things attacking with the equivalent of an eroded pool noodle so the damage output generally isn't anything to write home about. Obviously mistakes happen when people are trying to learn to dps as healers but you should be able to ballpark how much of a risk it is without any complex math behind it.

It's not really critical thinking it's something that becomes a routine. I can get that people who are running content for the first time may be more cautious but if someone's decked out in tome gear and is clearly on their 4th or 5th week of expert roulette they should have a general idea about how it goes and how much they can handle if they bother paying attention. Not to say that more transparency would be a bad thing but the idea of if everything isn't spelled out exactly then people can't possibly do the basics is a bit of a cop out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Honestly, I feel like the logic here ought to work the other way.

---

Then why are you doing solo at all? The JP tend to not actually question this, because, well, its the JP way and we always do the JP way. If solo is harder than party, just stay in party and do everything there.

But solo has nothing to do with difficulty; solo exists because in general, requiring parties takes too much time and causes more issues than party required.

I don't have the benefit or the timeframe available for a cohesive static.

However, that doesn't stop me from putting my best foot forward in high-end content, even in raids.

If I have to use Discord or put up with a lot of in-game text chatting, then so be it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Oh wait, the JP community already said all this in a much simpler manner:
- Premades for learning; RF only if you're personally responsible. Burden Join (other wholly capable) randoms only when you're ready to farm.

---

I would've agreed with you if western mindset was like that.
In Japan, it is part of their culture, it is basic good manners, to avoid causing trouble to others.
And even behind the anonymity of internet, that etiquette still kinda lives.
Thus it is also strongly reprimanded if you break it : e.g I heard you can/will get kicked from PF for not melding your gear.
To be honest, I don't find that excessive, and would've agreed to such community rules, but it is just not possible on western servers.
Of course, despite all this, Japanese servers still have their jerks and trolls e.g : the koike incident.
But nevertheless, the dominant mindset is the one I described. To follow on the koike incident, it was reprimanded by SE (bans) and the players : they protested by doing naked roe stand-ups, which ultimately forced the offenders to rename, change server, delete their twitter account, post an apology vid...
The japanese player base has a common culture to build their community rules on.

But you can't say the same about our servers. There are just too many people that don't care, that have different expectation from playing video games, all that due to different culture among players (maybe less on US servers, but surely on EU servers).

On a side note, if my analogy to a football game doesn't work let's try an easier one.
Consider playing with a static, like playing with your... static.
And consider roulette being like, playing with your 12 y.o bro and his 12 y.o friends, because you're just too frustrated waiting in queue, light farming on your DPS classes.

I know that players I raid with are experienced, adults, and focusing. I can't say with certainty that anyone in DF isn't literally a distracted 9-year-old who's been playing for three weeks.

People everywhere hate criticism and I've just kind of come to accept this. I can't necessarily blame people for doubting advice, although I wish they'd take it when what they're doing obviously isn't working out that well. I've received bad advice in dungeons.

Both DF and statics wear on me these days. DF because I can't really trust anyone (had a SCH ragequit because my friend who has effects off pulled mobs out of Shadowflare), and statics because so many take themselves far too seriously, burn people out, neglect their families, and sabotage friendships in pursuit of meaningless raiding achievements.

Regardless of skill, I'm burned out on the antics of various people and really just want to play with personal friends only. Nothing else seems worth it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FunkYeahDragons

...
(had a SCH ragequit because my friend who has effects off pulled mobs out of Shadowflare),
....

---

Setting the options to limited instead of off turns off almost everything, but leaves the ground abilities, such as shadowflare, visible.