No double jobs in savage

It is now rampant the use in party finder of don't take any double job for latest savages.

I was told it is because this way the LB fills faster, is that true or just some spreading internet hoax?

It's true.

It's true, but you can pretty much thank Byakko EX for the "rampantness" of this in 4.2. If it weren't for the fact that the way everyone does the fight hinges on a tank LB3 that will only be available when it's needed if you have no duplicate jobs in the party, far fewer people would be bothering to mention it.

I dunno, having double jobs in a raid group has pretty much never been a thing, even in PF. Been raiding since 2.0. Sure, you can do it, but why need to. Back in Gordias they actually implemented an even stricter LB penalty for say if you had 3 melee or 3 casters which they ended up reverting out again in the same tier. I dunno if they ever put that back in.

Personally, I think its good etiquette and practice to learn the different classes in your job group considering in FF you can play everything on one character.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

I dunno, having double jobs in a raid group has pretty much never been a thing, even in PF. Been raiding since 2.0. Sure, you can do it, but why need to. Back in Gordias they actually implemented an even stricter LB penalty for say if you had 3 melee or 3 casters which they ended up reverting out again in the same tier. I dunno if they ever put that back in.

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Back in Gordias, it was 2m/1range/1caster, no dupes to avoid all LB penalty. I don't think it changed till mid-Midas to Creator though.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I don't think it changed till mid-Midas to Creator though.

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Possibly, although I vaguely remember a SE apology that they shouldn't have made the change after people had already created raid groups to tackle Gordias.

It's been a while, and it's 5am for me, so I could be remembering wrong x3

From patch 3.2 notes:

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[2.0][3.0] In keeping with balance changes for certain dungeons and trials, the rate at which the Limit Break Gauge fills has been adjusted as follows:
Dungeons and trials accessible solo via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will no longer fill more slowly when multiple members of the same class/job are in the party.

Dungeons and trials requiring a full party to register via the Duty Finder:
The Limit Break Gauge will fill more slowly under the following conditions:

Three or more party members are playing as tanks.
Five or more party members are playing as DPS.
Three or more party members are playing as healers.
Two or more party members are playing the same class or job.

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Rules have not changed since then. These notes are from 2 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's true, but you can pretty much thank Byakko EX for the "rampantness" of this in 4.2. If it weren't for the fact that the way everyone does the fight hinges on a tank LB3 that will only be available when it's needed if you have no duplicate jobs in the party, far fewer people would be bothering to mention it.

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I mean, Ultima needed a tank LB back in 2.0.... these strats aren't exactly a new thing. This + the LB penalty kinda hints that SE doesn't intend for groups to be made up of multiples of the same job.

Ive seen no SAM post in party finder as well along with NO DRK post as well. But people have the right to request their preference. If you dont like it just form your own group, its as simple as that.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

It is now rampant the use in party finder of don't take any double job for latest savages.

I was told it is because this way the LB fills faster, is that true or just some spreading internet hoax?

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I was in one party that tried to do Byakko with a duplicated DPS class. Consistently made it to the 2nd tiger, made about 3 or 4 attempts before giving up. Each time when we got to the point where you fire off the tank LB 3 we had between 2.25 and 2.5 bars charged, without a dupe you get to 3 with plenty of time to spare. Group tried to do the 2nd tiger normally once or twice, but that group didnt manage a clear(too many mistakes as the fight went on, DPS too low to pass enrage).

Party Finders are using the no dupes strats as a crutch to make up for players that can't bring as much DPS to the table as they should. I don't really think it's healthy to reinforce this behavior as most of savage is easy enough now to do without relying on LB so much, but I understand why some PF leaders are paranoid and think they'll need it.

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Originally Posted by Rockette

I dunno, having double jobs in a raid group has pretty much never been a thing, even in PF. Been raiding since 2.0. Sure, you can do it, but why need to. Back in Gordias they actually implemented an even stricter LB penalty for say if you had 3 melee or 3 casters which they ended up reverting out again in the same tier. I dunno if they ever put that back in.

Personally, I think its good etiquette and practice to learn the different classes in your job group considering in FF you can play everything on one character.

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Maybe not in statics but in pugs it's been quite frequent in my experience.

Back in ARR frequently had double jobs in coil party finders. At one point did t12 with 2 schs 2 brds and 2 warriors without issues.

Frequently saw double jobs in heavensward ex primals and Susan and lakshmi ex.

I've said it before but with the game proclaiming you can play whatever you want. They should scrap the duplicate jobs penalty entirely.
All it does it exclude people. If 2 of of my friends both want to be monk they should be allowed without screwing the party over.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

They should scrap the duplicate jobs penalty entirely.
All it does it exclude people.

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You do realize scrapping the jobs penalty would exclude FAR more people. Once the meta is established (6 BLM or 7 Tanks and 1 Healer?) all the other classes will be banned from Progression parties. Not sure how having nothing but PLD's and WAR's would be more inclusive.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

Party Finders are using the no dupes strats as a crutch to make up for players that can't bring as much DPS to the table as they should. I don't really think it's healthy to reinforce this behavior as most of savage is easy enough now to do without relying on LB so much, but I understand why some PF leaders are paranoid and think they'll need it.

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It's not a crutch, it's the sensible thing to do. Especially when pugging where the quality of players is less than desirable.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

It's not a crutch, it's the sensible thing to do. Especially when pugging where the quality of players is less than desirable.

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basically this. pugging savage is a grab bag and you literally never know what you'll get.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

You do realize scrapping the jobs penalty would exclude FAR more people. Once the meta is established (6 BLM or 7 Tanks and 1 Healer?) all the other classes will be banned from Progression parties. Not sure how having nothing but PLD's and WAR's would be more inclusive.

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If 7 tanks and a healer could clear content then there's a serious design flaw on the dps checks.

And if raiders started going 6blm then again there's a balance problem. But honestly raiders still wouldn't stack jobs because of the loot system..

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Originally Posted by Dzian

And if raiders started going 6blm then again there's a balance problem.

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There will always be a balance problem since 100% balance is pretty much impossible without homogenizing all jobs to be carbon copies of each other minus maybe animation styles and effects.

Not stacking same jobs means groups take a wider variety of players and jobs into their groups. This is a good thing.

I don't think removing the LB bar penalty would make people start wanting nothing but the heaviest-hitting DPS job currently available in their parties. That is incredibly dumb. Like, if it really did make that much of a difference, people wouldn't be giving two shits about Limit Break, and would just be doing it anyway. Limit Break does like what, 1-2% of the boss' HP? I'm pretty sure the difference between a good DPS player and a bad one can cover that gap.

But guess what? They don't care. Or they do, and think Limit Breaks are absolutely essential to clearing fights. They aren't, save for a couple of exceptions where Limit Breaks are part of the fight (A12S).

The main problem I have with this though is that it's hard enough to fill up parties as it is. Nobody uses Raid Finder. You gotta set up a party in PF and wait. And then on top of that it has to be 1 of each unique class. People don't even like taking 4 casters or 4 melee, when technically in the end it doesn't even matter - you're still able to clear. Sure, you won't end up with the optimal parse, and loot competition will be screwed, but when all you wanna do is prog or practice, it shouldn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's true, but you can pretty much thank Byakko EX for the "rampantness" of this in 4.2. If it weren't for the fact that the way everyone does the fight hinges on a tank LB3 that will only be available when it's needed if you have no duplicate jobs in the party, far fewer people would be bothering to mention it.

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“No doubles” has always been a thing in Savage, which is what the OP is talking about. It has nothing to do with Byakko Ex’s Tank LB3 strat, and everything to do with LB build-up and trying to keep the fighting for gear at a minimum. Some PUGs don’t care about the doubles, but there are several out there that have the slots locked so that there will be no doubling up on jobs. It’s better to have the variety anyways.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

“No doubles” has always been a thing in Savage, which is what the OP is talking about. It has nothing to do with Byakko Ex’s Tank LB3 strat, and everything to do with LB build-up and trying to keep the fighting for gear at a minimum. Some PUGs don’t care about the doubles, but there are several out there that have the slots locked so that there will be no doubling up on jobs. It’s better to have the variety anyways.

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I have to echo this. Granted, I started hitting Savage for the 1st time when Deltascape dropped, but I've always seen more parties that said no double jobs. Personally, I don't see this as a bad thing - that LB3 comes faster and, as mentioned above, avoids some loot problems. I don't mind 'no doubles'

Yea, if you have two or more of the same jobs in your party (i.e, two paladins, two whms, four loldragoons), lb fills slower.

No double jobs has always been the optimal and preferred way to do things, just not a lot of people care about optimal unless the strategy depends on it.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

No double jobs has always been the optimal and preferred way to do things, just not a lot of people care about optimal unless the strategy depends on it.

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Optimal and preffered way of doing things is fine.

But players shouldn't be punished for doubling jobs if 2 of your group of friends both want to go Dragoon or monk or whatever. Might not be optimal but should be viable without lb penalties and such.

Especially in savage where one of the arguments people don't do it is because finding 7 friends to go with is hard... even harder if you finally havev8 friends who want to go but 2 of them can't come because you already got that job...

around the time of Midas for example my fc actually had 8 -10 people that wanted to try it. But it never happened because there was 4 of us mained paladin as a tank class and can't really take 2 of them. So 1 of us would have to play a tank we didn't like... our dps was all nins drags and blackmages so at least one of those would have been doubled up unless someone changed to a dps they didn't like. The only thing we'd have been ok with was healers. So in the end it never happened.

I know a few other groups that have similar experiences and all it does is push players away from participating at all

Dzian, if you wanted to go run Savage with two PLDs, NIN DRG BLM BLM, you could have. LB penalty honestly would have been the least of the inefficiencies you should worry about when considering a comp like that though.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Dzian, if you wanted to go run Savage with two PLDs, NIN DRG BLM BLM, you could have. LB penalty honestly would have been the least of the inefficiencies you should worry about when considering a comp like that though.

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Think your missing the point a bit.
Yoshi himself says Any composition should be equally viable..and play what you want

That non optimal setup might already be losing a ton of potential dps. It shouldn't be smacked with a reduced lb gauge as well.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Think your missing the point a bit.
Yoshi himself says Any composition should be equally viable..

Whether or not a reduced lb gauge would be the least of inefficiencies or not it shouldn't be reduced at all.

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If there was no LB penalty how would you avoid groups just going double AST almost universally once out of progression?

Honestly, LBs (damaging ones, at least) have generally meant (proportionally) less and less as the game goes on, IMO. Nowadays it isn't unusual to see a melee LB3 only take off a piddly 1% off a boss, when I definitely don't remember it being like that back in 2.x.

I feel like LBs haven't scaled up as well as the rest of our power has. Maybe it's just me, though.

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I dunno, having double jobs in a raid group has pretty much never been a thing, even in PF. Been raiding since 2.0. Sure, you can do it, but why need to. Back in Gordias they actually implemented an even stricter LB penalty for say if you had 3 melee or 3 casters which they ended up reverting out again in the same tier. I dunno if they ever put that back in.

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Prog groups might have been avoiding it, but for the stuff you could do in PF at least, I'd never seen anyone saying "no dupes" until 4.2. Now I pretty much can't open the PF without seeing those words somewhere.

Granted, the vast majority of the time I see it, it's just on Byakko EX.

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I mean, Ultima needed a tank LB back in 2.0.... these strats aren't exactly a new thing. This + the LB penalty kinda hints that SE doesn't intend for groups to be made up of multiples of the same job.

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It never needed a tank LB3 specifically though. I'd gotten through that fight quickly enough with some groups to not have LB3 ready (even with no dupes), but generally speaking, for the groups strong enough to push that quickly, LB2 usually sufficed anyway.

I had never, ever seen groups for Ultima EX asking for no dupes. I actually specifically remember having a lot of dupe groups for that fight.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Think your missing the point a bit.
Yoshi himself says Any composition should be equally viable..and play what you want

That non optimal setup might already be losing a ton of potential dps. It shouldn't be smacked with a reduced lb gauge as well.

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I'd actually have to say you missed the point. Some suboptimal groups are only suboptimal because of the reduced LB. Go in with 3 Black Mages and a Samurai, no LB penalty, and you could really clean up shop quickly. I recall before the penalty was put on, people stacked Bard because they could milk the most dps out of their party comp like that.

You *can* clear Savage, btw, with two paladins, two black mages, and a NIN/DRG. So it's still viable. You can still play what you like.

yes and no,in static sur you never have double class,but weekly clear wit random,its not that unusual to do it,cause weekly withr andom are hell,so people just want the clear and hope to have the biggest roll.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Think your missing the point a bit.
Yoshi himself says Any composition should be equally viable..and play what you want

That non optimal setup might already be losing a ton of potential dps. It shouldn't be smacked with a reduced lb gauge as well.

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When Yoshida talks about viability I don't think he's taking into account stacked jobs, since he's the one who approved the LB penalty, he's talking being able to clear without having to exclude any job, which is factually true. The two times this wasn't true was 2.0 WAR and 2.4 DRG, and both were addressed quickly.

Also even raid finder disallows duplicate jobs if you were to queue. But either way I think every fight in the game is clearable with stacked jobs