Corps-a-Corps

Could it's recast time be lowered by 5 seconds?

Could DRG Elusive Jump cd also be lowered? Hmm I'd prefer both to effected or not at all.

Can you make Ruin 3 instant outside DWT? I want to be included too

lol. I said BY 5 seconds. Not TO 5 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Could it's recast time be lowered by 5 seconds?

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I support this. I love being a caster/melee hybrid.

Why ?
It's already a short CD.
And it more or less align correctly when we have to do the melee combo + manafication reset the timer

It's fine like this.

It doesn't align because the cooldowns are different, which is why OP wants the recast time of Corps-a-Corps to be lowered by 5.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Could DRG Elusive Jump cd also be lowered? Hmm I'd prefer both to effected or not at all.

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It was lowered though.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

Could it's recast time be lowered by 5 seconds?

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I mean, I don't see why doesnt manification already reset the cd? its always up before melee combo iirc when else would you possibly need it?

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Could DRG Elusive Jump cd also be lowered? Hmm I'd prefer both to effected or not at all.

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This would only make sense if we're talking about displacement, and they're totally different skills so... no? plus EJ cuts aggro and servers an entirely different function so I dont see why you think they need to share a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Crescents

This would only make sense if we're talking about displacement, and they're totally different skills so... no? plus EJ cuts aggro and servers an entirely different function so I dont see why you think they need to share a cooldown.

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My original thought was that RDM spends most of its time at a distance and Corps is great for getting in to melee range for those combos. DRG on the other hand is nearly always on melee range and often needs to vacate the area more often than RDM. Also I was capitalising on the DRG tank the floor infamousy, but yeah the fact it also effects emnity would make a change unlikely.

I actually wish corps and displacement did no damage whatsoever. I don't like movement abilities that you can't really save for actual movement when necessary, as opposed to having them be a dps loss when not used on cooldown. Sort of the same problem with monk's old tackle and the stun effect.

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Originally Posted by Kurando

Could DRG Elusive Jump cd also be lowered? Hmm I'd prefer both to effected or not at all.

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I would like for Repelling Shot to cut aggro and remove heavy/bind. At least just cut aggro.

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

I would like for Repelling Shot to cut aggro and remove heavy/bind. At least just cut aggro.

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Oh that would be lovely, maybe make it a cross role skill for both BRD and MCH as well. Although both would also benefit from an anti-movement skill like Surecast or Arms Length. Too much on the wishlist...

I've been having situations where I'll get above 80/80 and Corps still has about 3 to 4 seconds left.

Which is why I wanted lowered to 35 seconds instead of 40.

can you give brd and mch anti knockback pls??

I'm still kind of learning the job. On boss fights, I'm never sure when to charge in. When both mana bars are at 100, or at 30 for the enchanted melee combo.

If you know the rotations of a boss mechs then you would know your opening chance to get in there for the combo. Like you wouldn't do it if you knew an aoe around the boss or possible knockback (without Surecast) was coming. You want 90 minimum for the full combo to get out Flare/Holy but 100 is nice to have some mana left over.

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Originally Posted by Lium

I'm still kind of learning the job. On boss fights, I'm never sure when to charge in. When both mana bars are at 100, or at 30 for the enchanted melee combo.

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If you are level 70 then you want them above 80/80 with one slightly higher than the other for Flare and Holy to give their procs.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

If you are level 70 then you want them above 80/80 with one slightly higher than the other for Flare and Holy to give their procs.

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^This. Also, for 3+ mobs you'll want to have at lease 90/90 for a triple Enchanted Moulinet. Another good piece of advice is to try to time Embolden before a melee combo, as your enchanted attacks are all magic-based damage.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I actually wish corps and displacement did no damage whatsoever. I don't like movement abilities that you can't really save for actual movement when necessary, as opposed to having them be a dps loss when not used on cooldown. Sort of the same problem with monk's old tackle and the stun effect.

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Yes please, get rid of the damage, add it somewhere else, but let us use movement skills when we actually need it instead of having to keep it on cd to not lose damage.

I have thought it was incredibly odd for them to give these skills damage when they clearly went out of their way to remove the damage from any other similar sources. Particularly from Repelling Shot, which was a very egregious example (why does this do no damage? Are you basically just shooting the ground? If so, why does it even need a target to work? Why not just make it like Elusive Jump so it needs no target?)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I have thought it was incredibly odd for them to give these skills damage when they clearly went out of their way to remove the damage from any other similar sources. Particularly from Repelling Shot, which was a very egregious example (why does this do no damage? Are you basically just shooting the ground? If so, why does it even need a target to work? Why not just make it like Elusive Jump so it needs no target?)

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Similar logic applies to Blank. They removed its damage so all it does now is knockback. Why doesn't it do both like it used to?

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Originally Posted by Joe777

Similar logic applies to Blank. They removed its damage so all it does now is knockback. Why doesn't it do both like it used to?

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It used to be annoying because pre-60 mobs don't ignore knockback, so you'd have a mch using it to do damage and punting the mobs everywhere. very annoying for tanks.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I actually wish corps and displacement did no damage whatsoever. I don't like movement abilities that you can't really save for actual movement when necessary, as opposed to having them be a dps loss when not used on cooldown. Sort of the same problem with monk's old tackle and the stun effect.

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I hate to admit it, since CaC is a lunging stab and Displace is a kickoff slash, but I agree they shouldn't do any damage for the same reasons. I'm compelled to pump them even when I don't need them, and it sucks not having them when I did. When I absolutely know I'll need CaC / Displace soon, I let the CDs hang, but it sucks a ton when I manafy without having burned both because that's an immediate knowledge of wasted potency.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It used to be annoying because pre-60 mobs don't ignore knockback, so you'd have a mch using it to do damage and punting the mobs everywhere. very annoying for tanks.

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Personally I tried to avoid that, but I see your point.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I hate to admit it, since CaC is a lunging stab and Displace is a kickoff slash, but I agree they shouldn't do any damage for the same reasons. I'm compelled to pump them even when I don't need them, and it sucks not having them when I did. When I absolutely know I'll need CaC / Displace soon, I let the CDs hang, but it sucks a ton when I manafy without having burned both because that's an immediate knowledge of wasted potency.

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Doesn't Samurai also have a jump in and jump out skill that also deals damage? It's not apart of their rotation like RDM but it still deals damage. Should we remove damage from that as well?

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Originally Posted by Vivi_Bushido

Doesn't Samurai also have a jump in and jump out skill that also deals damage? It's not apart of their rotation like RDM but it still deals damage. Should we remove damage from that as well?

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Difference is, they have a small cooldown and cost resources--so it is a strategy choice to use the opener and closer there, and it isn't a straight dps drop to not use them (in fact, it is a loss to use them, so they're saved for emergency only). For RDM, it's a loss to not use the opener and closer on cooldown every time they're cooled down.

EDIT: Conversely, if they lowered the CD of both to 10s, and made them cost some small amount of black and white mana to use like how SAM's gap opener and closer work, I wouldn't be opposed.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Why ?
It's already a short CD.
And it more or less align correctly when we have to do the melee combo + manafication reset the timer

It's fine like this.

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I'm in the same mind set... Red Mage is a horribly broken class and seriously OP...too easy to abuse...and the recast time is pretty frequent enough on this already. May not be perfect for some..but i have no complaints with it.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

I'm in the same mind set... Red Mage is a horribly broken class and seriously OP...

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Okay, let's start with..."How is it broken?"

Mobility? Summoner beats it out any and every day.
Damage? One of the weakest jobs in the game.
Healing? It's a DPS. You don't take a DPS for its healing capability.
Resurrection? It's niche. If you need raising like RDM can provide, you need to wipe, go back, and figure out what you're doing wrong in the mechanics everybody's dying to. Summoner provides the same utility within reason on top of the tons of extra damage it provides over RDM.
Ease of use? Yes, it's a straightforward rotation, and optimization is simple enough I suppose. But ease of use does not a broken class make.

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too easy to abuse...and the recast time is pretty frequent enough on this already.

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"Easy to abuse"? Care to elaborate? You either use it for mobility, or damage, and in order to maximize damage from these abilities, you're doing a lot of unnecessary movement that puts you out of heal range. If you're just learning and progging a fight, you won't know *when* you need these abilities, so you might pop them for damage and not have them when they're needed.

And if RDM doesn't use them for damage, that's a lot of potency lost over a long fight.

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May not be perfect for some..but i have no complaints with it.

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Fair enough tbh. 40 seconds is kind of in line with MNK's shoulder tackle CD, and DRG only gets a 60s gap closer (jump should function as one too, but that's neither here nor there).

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Originally Posted by Crescents

I mean, I don't see why doesnt manification already reset the cd? its always up before melee combo iirc when else would you possibly need it?

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Manafication has a much longer cooldown though so can't always use it to reset timers (plus it doubles available manas so it's a waste to use it above 50). Plus, it isn't always up yet when you need it. If you get lucky with procs your manas will both already be 80+ but CaC is still 3-4 seconds out.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Red Mage is a horribly broken class and seriously OP...

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What RDM are you playing? Because RDM is the one of the weakest DPS at most percentiles for most fights this tier (and last tier).

Taking samples from the past 2 weeks from V6S, since Chadarnook is this tier’s Striking Dummy (Savage):
50th percentile: RDM is lowest DPS, almost 20 DPS below BRD
75th percentile: RDM is lowest DPS, almost 100 DPS below BRD.
80th percentile: RDM is lowest DPS, almost 150 DPS below BRD.
90th percentile: RDM is lowest DPS, almost 175 DPS below BRD.
95th percentile: RDM is lowest DPS, little over 200 DPS below BRD.
99th percentile: RDM is lowest DPS, below NIN by ~200 DPS, who is below BRD.

For 75th percentile for all the other fights:
Phantom Train: RDM is second lowest, above BRD by 60 DPS.
Guardian: RDM is third lowest, above DRG and NIN, but below BRD
Kefka: RDM is fourth lowest, barely above MCH, NIN, and BRD.
God Kefka: RDM is second lowest, above NIN, but below DRG, who is below BRD.

What I want to know is how far away you guys are that you apparently need CaC to close the distance after a dualcast. You have, roughly, 3.1 ish seconds including your slidecast to close the distance. If you can't walk to melee range in that time, it means you were also possibly out of heal range.

In any case, you shouldn't normally be that far in the first place. Mechanics allowing, you want to be in melee range to squeeze out those extra autos. In addition, CaC and displacement are not primarily for mobility because they have damage attached. You should be using them on cooldown, almost regardless of where you are in your melee rotation. In fact I almost wish displacement had a longer cooldown, because it often lines up that it comes off cooldown right when I want to melee.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

What I want to know is how far away you guys are that you apparently need CaC to close the distance after a dualcast. You have, roughly, 3.1 ish seconds including your slidecast to close the distance. If you can't walk to melee range in that time, it means you were also possibly out of heal range.

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True enough, but there are some cases in Savage where CaC and Displace are valuable for movement:
-Getting back in range after head on
-Juking ghosts
-Moving about the arena in 6s without having to manually move (more casting time)
-Getting out for atomic ray in 7s
-Getting out before air force load
-Getting in for air force adds
-Getting out for Ink Positions on Ultros Load
-Getting back in for tentacles immediately after
-Getting to virus positions quickly
-Getting out from Real Spread / Fake Stack in Kekfaust

Compare to, say, BLM who has a 10s teleport and a 3s return to ley lines. I'd gladly dump CaC and Displace's damage for 10s cooldowns for abuse in these fights.
Note: I realize this is not the goal of the thread, which you address perfectly well. I suppose Riyah just put the thought of tons of mobility in my head and I can't shake it. I also realize damage vs mobility is a perfectly valid strategic choice to have to make mid fight. I suppose my biggest annoyance is displacement coming off cooldown during heavy aoe phases, or when stacking is mandated, or when there isn't enough room to displace to.
EDIT: I suppose I really don't have to tell you any of this. Also I am really jealous of that beautiful 100 of yours.

I'd support this, if the damage was removed. Usefulness aside, leaping and backflipping around as RDM is just plain fun! Being able to do that a bit more often would be great, but it shouldn't be a "you must do this for more DPS" thing.

Perhaps I'm playing the job wrong, in which case I'm not a RDM main, but I only use Corps and Displacement when I need to melee combo. As a mage I'm only ever in melee range for the melee combo.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

What I want to know is how far away you guys are that you apparently need CaC to close the distance after a dualcast.

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Displacement into running along the edge of the arena to avoid damage mechanics that slowly follow you comes to mind. Also aoe damage that gets stronger the closer you are can make you run a long distance, and you then use CaC to finish gap closing.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

What RDM are you playing? Because RDM is the one of the weakest DPS at most percentiles for most fights this tier

For 75th percentile for all the other fights:
Phantom Train: RDM is second lowest, above BRD by 60 DPS.
Guardian: RDM is third lowest, above DRG and NIN, but below BRD
Kefka: RDM is fourth lowest, barely above MCH, NIN, and BRD.
God Kefka: RDM is second lowest, above NIN, but below DRG, who is below BRD.

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I’m guessing they’re thinking of pre-SB content, where RDM is capable of absurdly high dps relative to every other job. Problem for RDM is it doesn’t get any significant dps abilities/upgrades from 61-70.

What you’re pointing out with savage numbers, though, would be the data that matters most.

I think RDM is actually pretty OP in terms of kit; the problem is that endgame content really limits DPS to "DPS only." RDM actually has strong power to fix situations; you can be faster to crisis cure a dps that ate a mechanic and is too low to avoid the followup for example, and we all know its pretty strong for solo. If we ever get any content that is more than dps only, other dps will have some pretty strong issues competing. I wonder if Eureka might be this content.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

you can be faster to crisis cure a dps that ate a mechanic and is too low to avoid the followup for example

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I dunno how fast you are with vercure, but I'm nowhere near fast enough to toss out a crisis cure. I'm always 1-1.5 gcds away from even being able to.

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Similar logic applies to Blank. They removed its damage so all it does now is knockback. Why doesn't it do both like it used to?

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Blank not doing damage actually makes sense though because it's... a blank. Also, be glad that they took away damage from it because honestly, people just knocking back mobs with reckless abandon because MAH DEEPZ was annoying as shit to every melee in your party.

With Repelling Shot you're still presumably shooting something at the enemy, and it doesn't affect anyone else because it only sends the user back.