Why are pvp bots still a thing?

I'm actually incredibly mad because my entire team consisted of pvp bots and thus we lost horribly. I don't pvp so I can stare at 7 other people standing completely still and ignoring objectives.

https://i.imgur.com/Yd7fW3C.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/mtjeCmp.jpg

Notice the time difference and how long they basically just stood still or waffled forwards and back, not doing any objectives, also that we're 200 points under maelstorm. I already reported each player individually but i'm worried nothings going to actually change

Edit2: this isn't the first time I've seen this happen, actually. I cant remember the last time I did a pvp without at least 1 bot in it. but it is the first time my entire team has been bots, making it impossible to actually pvp.

Players are not allowed to "name-and-shame" other player on the forums, even if they are rmts or bots. I would remove the screenshots and replace them versions that have the player names blacked-out. Otherwise, you maybe get in trouble with the forum moderators.

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Originally Posted by Jillian

Players are not allowed to "name-and-shame" other player on the forums, even if they are rmts or bots. I would remove the screenshots and replace them versions that have the player names blacked-out. Otherwise, you maybe get in trouble with the forum moderators.

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whoops, forgot that was a thing.

We talked about this over in the PvP forums. There was a thread here in general if I recall, that openly linked a guy botting on his livestream. People warned the OP of that one too. Want to know what SE/forum mods did?

They silently moved it to the PvP forums.

Speaking of silence, SE's continued silence on the above happening for half a year already is pretty disturbing. Mind you, it's pretty bad when someone like the OP stands to be punished for doing this before these botters, clearly violating the TOS will even so much as be looked at. Not to mention that screenshots and video evidence aren't accepted anyways, thus we're all forced either into bitter silence, or defiant attempts like this to get some attention on the matter. . . And mind you, we're paying for this kind of "service"

So yes, we know the rules, but we're pretty sure the botters do too. And they don't care. And to let this go on for half a year, apparently, SE doesn't care. So let's play that game. Who's really the bad guy here? The guy paying to play who just wants to enjoy PvP, or these same botters we've seen for so long now, thanks to a poor reporting system that works against itself and allows violators to go unpunished because no one knows?

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Originally Posted by Asmrran

whoops, forgot that was a thing.

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Nah, you're all good man. I mean, if you'd be penalized for this post, then so should all those bots in the picture, yes? I recognize almost every name there, sadly. Seen them for months.

I've posted this in other threads but here is a video of a match where 22/24 people were bots. This is how bad pvp is- the majority of fronelines matches contain more bots than actual players.

https://youtu.be/Abp3jlvNvls

I also want to say that bots have been a problem for a year now. They've been around since this time last year, quite a bit before 4.0 and exp were a thing. It's been a year and Square hasn't said a SINGLE word on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Kisama

They've been around since this time last year, quite a bit before 4.0 and exp were a thing.

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That would be since Garo then, which was Mid-January last year. Coincidence?

I dont see any pvp bots on Europe server.

The issue is a lot more prevalent in NA.

Nothing will be done unless it happens on the JP servers. Only way to force SE to look at it.

You're fighting a losing battle. SE will continue to ignore you until you get enough people together to express your discontent with how they've handled bots.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

You're fighting a losing battle. SE will continue to ignore you until you get enough people together to express your discontent with how they've handled bots.

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Right now, I want you to go over to the PvP forums, and check the first 4 pages, and tell me what seems to be the most mentioned topic.

JP servers apparently lack this issue as well.

The botting in PVP was when we NA players started wondering if SE cared about our side of the game at all. It's been a pretty disheartening seeing this stuff happening. Yoshi-P only found out RMT spam was so unbelievable on NA servers when he logged into one for LL and was promptly BOMBARDED with RMT tells and shouts. It's been almost squashed now.

Botting basically makes PVP modes borderline unplayable. We've come up with a ton of solutions to get these leeching players to leave us PVP fans alone, but SE won't change anything or even acknowledge the problem.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

You're fighting a losing battle. SE will continue to ignore you until you get enough people together to express your discontent with how they've handled bots.

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I'll save you a trip:

I'm Done

Please Fix Bots!!!! in PVP. It's a Nightmare (This one was in General Discussion and still with no answer from SE at all was moved to the PvP section.)
PVP bots
Frontlines are miserable right now
BOTS all over frontline
Rival Wings and bots
Please remove the EXP from PVP
Bots in frontlines
Placed into a bot 24 man Shatter
Frontlines bots
PvP botters are ruining PvP Frontline
Bots in PVP


. . . And I can find more than that. Shall I? Or is that not "enough people"?

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Originally Posted by Slirith

Nothing will be done unless it happens on the JP servers. Only way to force SE to look at it.

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Hear that, SE? Are JP subscriptions more important or more worth being supported properly than NA ones?

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

JP servers apparently lack this issue as well.

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Maybe they simply got it squashed?

It's a single thread on the second page and only got 2 pages, so it clearly isn't a hot topic. I missed it when looking for "bots" the first time I tried to decipher the gibberish of google translate.

Can someone explain to me the point of botting pvp? Like for what end result?

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Originally Posted by CakeyCakes

Can someone explain to me the point of botting pvp? Like for what end result?

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Easy way to get EXP (from what people are saying)

I wouldn't really be surprised if Square didn't even know about the bot issue. Given their response to the squadron LB thing, the NA team probably doesn't even give the developers any feedback.

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Originally Posted by CakeyCakes

Can someone explain to me the point of botting pvp? Like for what end result?

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50 Poetics, 50 Creation, 20 Mendacity, 500 Wolf Marks.
Below 70, it's also decent-ish for XP and still gives Poetics/Wolf Marks.
(Decent-ish because, well... we're talking about botting activities, not legitimate activities)

Wolf Marks can be turned into Company Seals, as can Poetics. If they added hunt marks as well, it'd be a one-stop supermarket of battle currencies.

SE doesn't care too much is the obvious answer and they fall under the radar of them. As far as I know bots will never die as every time we find a way to shut them down, the creators find a way to counter the counters and they just come back. Unfortunately the laws are different in every country and nothing can really be done about the websites, except for them to be blocked from being searched.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

50 Poetics, 50 Creation, 20 Mendacity, 500 Wolf Marks.
Below 70, it's also decent for XP and still gives Poetics/Wolf Marks.

Wolf Marks can be turned into Company Seals, as can Poetics. If they added hunt marks as well, it'd be a one-stop supermarket of battle currencies.

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Seriously? I knew about the xp and the wolf marks, but didn't know about them able to turn them into other currency.

SE needs to make the opposite happen, I have no desire to PvP but we should be able to turn in seals or w/e for wolf marks to get the gear.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Seriously? I knew about the xp and the wolf marks, but didn't know about them able to turn them into other currency.

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You didn't know about expert delivery...?

You use the wolf marks to buy cheap accessories from the vendors (the 180 ones), then hand them in at your GC headquarter to get Company Seals instead. 500 wolf marks are 1035 Company Seals.

Don't get confused, it's not a direct conversion.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

SE doesn't care too much is the obvious answer and they fall under the radar of them.

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It goes beyond that to a degree. I want to believe they care, but SE's own policies work against them when it comes to dealing with this, I explained it in better detail here:

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Square Enix's policies regarding screenshots and video as well as livestreams will not accept them as evidence, on the possibility that these media can be edited for possible false reporting. But without said evidence, reports go seemingly unanswered, as it seems the actual matches themselves aren't reviewed, and since bots/botting players won't openly mention it in chat, there's literally nothing to see, thus nothing to act upon. But again, the issue is VERY real, and many of us are pretty fed up with it. It grew exponentially at the start of Stormblood when PvP became an alternative source of XP, especially for DPS jobs that often suffer long queues. Six months later, while it has declined some because people have generally leveled what they wish to, the problem still persists, and now with fewer live players to call it out. Many avid PvPers were disappointed with the overhaul to PvP, couple that with openly cheating/exploiting for XP, and complete silence/being ignored by the devs, and this issue is only driving more real players away, giving more spots to these botting players.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

50 Poetics, 50 Creation, 20 Mendacity, 500 Wolf Marks.
Below 70, it's also decent-ish for XP and still gives Poetics/Wolf Marks.
(Decent-ish because, well... we're talking about botting activities, not legitimate activities)

Wolf Marks can be turned into Company Seals, as can Poetics. If they added hunt marks as well, it'd be a one-stop supermarket of battle currencies.

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Oh snap! I didn't know the gear could be turned into seals. I should do my daily pvp roulette at the very least then. Thanks for the tip! :D

Yeah, as a way to get players into PVP, the rewards are sky high.

Not to get all "Back in my day!" on everyone, but PVP used to have exclusive PVP stats, along witb materia and gearsets specifically tailored for PVP modes. This meant you played PVP modes to earn Wolf Marks to buy PVP gear to get better stats in PVP. Pretty straightforward stuff.

The drawback was that this made everything super niche, and it was similar to crafting/gathering in that some players simply don't want to, or didn't have the time to, invest into an entirely different branch of gameplay. You had to play PVP in primetime hours or you wouldn't get far, but that meant everyone of us in PVP *enjoyed* PVP and were actively trying to improve.

Then they added EXP and Tomes to get more players into it, got rid of all PVP only stats and converted the gear into vanity only (which made the lower tier PVP sets total junk since the iLVL90 rewards are naturally better than the first two tiers from the Wolf's Den). SE basically janked the whole system apart to get more players in, and when that didn't do enough, they totally uprooted the combat side for 4.0.

And well, now every PVP'er is withering away under bots.

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Originally Posted by CakeyCakes

Can someone explain to me the point of botting pvp? Like for what end result?

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PvP has given tomes, wolf marks & their associated glamours for years but widespread botting is more recent. Not to say that it literally never happened before but it was much rarer and largely negligible during the 2.0 & 3.0 eras. It seems to have exploded to all time highs after 4.0's exp system, which is why there was an outcry of posters in the forums asking for PvP exp to be removed last year. The difference was notable enough for them (and me) to attribute the rise in botting to the exp system. Endgame PvE tomes probably aren't a significant factor, as endgame PvE content rewards endgame tomes by default.

Fair warning about the roulette, most of the bots seem to stick to shatter. A common theme between images and videos like the above is that they tend to be shatter matches. I did a bunch of 72 man seal rock last night and there were no readily discernable bots. I don't believe there were any bots at all, but you can't always know that among so many people.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The drawback was that this made everything super niche, and it was similar to crafting/gathering in that some players simply don't want to, or didn't have the time to, invest into an entirely different branch of gameplay.

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With the result being...
*drumroll*
Bots. And wintrading. The earliest thread complaining about bots I found on the PvP forums dates back all the way to late 2013 - Apparently, the bots back then would stand at the start area and heal/attack you if you were in range, but not do anything else. But I can find more than that one thread if I go and scroll through the forums of yore.

And that's why they ended up making frontlines with iLvL sync and thus kill morale. There's an age-old yoshi-p interview from that time where he pretty much confirmed that they did that so people didn't feel pressured to farm morale gear to play PvP and resort to wintrading. Gosh, must be somewhere around page 120? I linked it once or twice in the past.

There were also a bunch of controversies about "Eso farmers" later. But not much about bots at the time, just people who simply don't care to make an effort in PvP.

Truth be told, when you read through the forums, it looks like PvP has come full cycle more than once by now.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

It goes beyond that to a degree. I want to believe they care, but SE's own policies work against them when it comes to dealing with this, I explained it in better detail here:

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Idk what the PvP is like as I try to stay away from it for this very reason but to me at least imo, SE doesn't care about botters as long as it makes them money. Sure they do banwaves a lot but they just come back with new accounts, stolen or otherwise.

On the other hand I think the devs that work under SE like Yoshi feel strongly about bots but have their hands tied.

I very often have 4-5 bots in my party, especially during the slow hours of the night. Not only is it frustrating having them on my team, but it's also not very fun to kill bots, either.

Last night I had 4 bots in my party. One of the enemy teams had 4-5. The entire group walked right by me, a lone dps. Didn't even glance at me, the easy kill. What was more important to them? To go position themselves at that chokepoint. You know the place.

I should have died that night. I should have died.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Idk what the PvP is like as I try to stay away from it for this very reason but to me at least imo, SE doesn't care about botters as long as it makes them money. Sure they do banwaves a lot but they just come back with new accounts, stolen or otherwise.

On the other hand I think the devs that work under SE like Yoshi feel strongly about bots but have their hands tied.

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For all the ban waves they do, I still see some of the very same ones from even before Stormblood.

And I'm fresh out of sympathy for them. Their hands are tied, but they can find ways to repeatedly NOT fix issues based on player feedback, while steadily making PvP worse, yet claiming they're aiming for E-Sports? They can ban a person mid-match for words they said, but can't catch a repeat offender wintrader simply because he's said nothing in game. He did say something on the forums, and it's by my grace and patience that I don't put his ass on blast right now. Something's fundamentally wrong where people abiding the rules who may perhaps slip up once are quicker to catch a punishment than others who've been openly violating the TOS for a year now. A YEAR.

And SE's said and done NOTHING.

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Originally Posted by Slirith

Nothing will be done unless it happens on the JP servers. Only way to force SE to look at it.

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Pretty much this.

SE only looks after Japan community, rest of the world are cash machines.
Even EN GM's doesnt have any contact with the core of the SE, im pretty much sure about it.
And i wouldnt probably be any far away from truth if i would say international SE department contains 1.5 people in the middle of the Taiga in Siberia, of which 2 of them are on 0.75 time contract and spends rest of the 0.25 to fight bears.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Not to get all "Back in my day!" on everyone, but PVP used to have exclusive PVP stats, along witb materia and gearsets specifically tailored for PVP modes. This meant you played PVP modes to earn Wolf Marks to buy PVP gear to get better stats in PVP. Pretty straightforward stuff.

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Morale was stupid, because it meant new players were useless. It's bad enough to have a skills gap in arena pvp; with a stats gap, it's near impossible for new players to complete. It makes maybe more sense in open world pvp, which I'm betting is where it came from.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Yeah, as a way to get players into PVP, the rewards are sky high.

Not to get all "Back in my day!" on everyone, but PVP used to have exclusive PVP stats, along witb materia and gearsets specifically tailored for PVP modes. This meant you played PVP modes to earn Wolf Marks to buy PVP gear to get better stats in PVP. Pretty straightforward stuff.

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Grindable gear is a reward though. You're replacing the reward, rather than abandoning the concept of rewards. The ideal balance would be to find rewards that people who don't care about PvP won't go out of their way to get but the people who actually enjoy PvP casually can have something to grind. There's a middle ground here that I don't think is being met with the same old achievement prizes we've had for years and PvE tomes that incentivize PvE content. I liked someone else's idea of a weekly PvP currency that could be used to purchase wolf crates, essentially FFXIV's version of lootboxes.

We both believe that PvPers should have something to grind, although I'm certain that PvPers would eventually bot for functional PvP gear if PvP were to ever become popular. It happened a few years ago in WoW, forcing Blizzard to eventually take action against the armies of botters in battlegrounds. We could have a gear system if SE would police it, but even then, Blizzard has sharply flattened the PvP gear curve in WoW while giving every class the same base stats in PvP and it's still the most active MMORPG PvP game. Personally, I couldn't play the arena PvP in 2.0, not even in primetime on the weekends. I literally never saw it pop during my entire time with 2.0 despite trying.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It makes maybe more sense in open world pvp, which I'm betting is where it came from.

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It actually came from WoW's Arena and the concept of "Resilience", later changed to "PvP Power + PvP Resilience" and then... I think ditched entirely.

That PvP only stat was introduced during Burning Crusade along with Arenas and made people in PvP more powerful (the details of 'powerful' changing over the years), without affecting PvE. What did Morale do? Well, just that. Wolves Den had the same rules of engagement as WoW's arenas as well.

It was pretty much a paint job and they probably didn't expect it to flop as badly as it did because WoW could sustain it. Turns out there's several differences between the games, from playerbase over netcode to class balance and combat design.

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to ask SE about their stance on the bots issue at conventions, with live letter, etc. Perhaps this needs to be pressed harder at such times... Forums are one thing, but if they dodge, deflect, or flat out ignore that then that means they are not acknowledging it, or have some reason to not acknowledge it. Either way, it should at least be acknowledged. I'm not big on PvP but I feel for the PvP community on this.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

I wonder if anyone has ever tried to ask SE about their stance on the bots issue at conventions, with live letter, etc. Perhaps this needs to be pressed harder at such times...

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lol at that customer service. Need a query answered? It's as simple as ambushing the director at a live event.

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Originally Posted by Vnolan

lol at that customer service. Need a query answered? It's as simple as ambushing the director at a live event.

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Well, considering Yoshi-P and the other head devs were unaware of how terrible RMT was on the primarily English-speaking despite dealing with it for the 2.x era (to the point removing /tell and /shout chat was common, as was forever staying on /busy status), until the man logged in to hang out with NA players on a live letter, and was instantly bombarded with gibberish, gilselling /tells.

Literally asking him to fix the bots at Fanfest looks to be the next move.

If only PVP were big enough for a LL question about the botting to get a thousand votes....