Would Bards and Machinists make good use of Diversion?

The last time I played a physical ranged Job it was Bard in 2.0 and since then it has went through many changes. But I remember back then that I did have some sort of skill to manage my enmity, I think it was called "Quelling Strikes" and worked somewhat like Diversion.

Currently I don't play either of these roles but, I was surprised that BRD and MCH have Second Wind as a skill to choose and not Diversion. Both Jobs lack any sort of enmity reducing skills now, right? I'm pretty sure Diversion would be far more useful over something like Second Wind, or am I wrong?

Bard/MCH have Tactician and Refresh that halve enmity.

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Bard/MCH have Tactician and Refresh that halve enmity.

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Ah, ok! I didn't read those skills and just assumed it was only MP and TP regen.

BRD and MCH should honestly have access to Diversion. The main uses of Refresh and Tactician are party support. Having to use them as primary enmity dumps can be problematic if you run into a situation where party members need MP or TP, particularly for prog, but you had to use it to dump your aggro.

I use Tactician as my primary enmity dump, and then save Refresh for healer MP during progression. But as prog evolves into having something on farm, Refresh is used to also extend the duration of Foe's Requiem, almost as an offensive tool, since its more beneficial to extend each Foe's than to have more of them in a given fight.

Keeping Refresh on cooldown does help with enmity, since you will ideally use it ~3 minutes, which is also roughly how long it takes for a BRD's MP bar to reach full again. But I would love Diversion in my opener since that is usually when I build the most aggro (BRD burst is strong...I almost hit 10k!!!! progging o7s last night). Having a NIN to Smokescreen does help there, if you have one. But I would feel better being able to Diversion pre-pull... like in HW when the BRD opener used Quelling Strikes pre-pull along with Foe's. Plus, I prefer having Refresh readily available for prog, and do not use it offensively during prog outside of the pre-pull (depending on the group, sometimes I won't if the healers are poor with managing their MP).

Ironically, Diversion's animation is the same as the old Quelling Strikes. Which was an ARC skill.

I'm not sure about MCH but Bards pull a lot of aggro in their opener. The BRD in my static is always complaining that she doesn't have access to Diversion and, as others have stated, sometimes has to use Tactician to reduce enmity depending on her procs.

Tbh it seems silly that they don't have diversion when they pull so much aggro xD

I feel that bard and machinist absolutely should get diversion to use; it's worth noting that these two jobs, despite being middling to lower on the total damage over time compared to other jobs, have some of the hardest hitting opening bursts in the game. I'm admittedly more knowledgeable on MCH than bard but imagine every attack having a bonus 20% from overheat, 8% from hotshot, 5% from piercing debuff, 10% from trick, all with the possibility of critting or direct critting...and then 25% of everything you just did in damage happens again. The aggro is insane.

It's a bit of a similar thing with casters, I mean in some situations you wouldn't use Lucid Dreaming JUST to deal with aggro because you could find yourself a little down the line suddenly needing it for MP regen (i.e. you happen to die, or extend a lot of MP). Having access to Diversion as well kinda helps with this, although casters probably don't have as many aggro issues as other jobs it still shows they can have both whether a player uses it or not.

Absolutely.

Having to waste a supportive raid cooldown just to not die, and for so much less value at the beginning of a fight than later, is truly painful. It practically forces a NIN in order not to make all the other DPSs' uses of Diversion worthless.

I'd much rather have Diversion than even the enmity-reduction on Tactician and Refresh.

Bard and Machinist not having Diversion strikes me as kinda backwards when a job like Samurai has it. Both of them have strong opening burst, even if it isn't necessarily the strongest it's still above the median, but their sustained damage is pretty low so they inherently get less use out of the aggro 1/2 effect and also blow a major resource skill. Compare Samurai which is mostly sustained damage so it gets less use out of Diversion's burst management while an aggro 1/2 effect on say, Invigorate, would be a godsend.

Hopefully they'll fix this at some point but the devs love clinging to dumb design decisions (lol Tackle Mastery) so I doubt it'll happen soon.

I just use tactician, saving refresh to help healers out. The TP is isn't as important at the start of a fight, when every physical dps and their moms have invigorate available.

They've two abilities to cut their enmity in half. Its easy to teach a new player to not pull aggro in order to survive but it's harder to teach them how providing others TP and MP is important. SE did a great job merging those things and Diversion would not only be unecessary but break this small detail of the role skills.

As said before in this thread, yes the main reason for the skills are to provide resources, but doing so you're dealing with your threat at the same time. A player that don't understand the resource management of others will provide it to them by caring about theit enmity. So the way those two skills are is entirely fine.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

They've two abilities to cut their enmity in half. Its easy to teach a new player to not pull aggro in order to survive but it's harder to teach them how providing others TP and MP is important. SE did a great job merging those things and Diversion would not only be unecessary but break this small detail of the role skills.

As said before in this thread, yes the main reason for the skills are to provide resources, but doing so you're dealing with your threat at the same time. A player that don't understand the resource management of others will provide it to them by caring about theit enmity. So the way those two skills are is entirely fine.

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Asking for Diversion is not game-breaking for either of the jobs, though. It’s giving them an enmity queller all other DPS jobs have access to. Considering BRD/MCH still have some of the strongest burst in the game during their openers, it’s definitely needed.

The majority of the time, a good BRD or MCH is riding a tank for aggro immediately after their opener because they have nothing to quell their burst. Blowing a support skill and putting it on CD for the next three minutes can be problematic when you are progging fights. What if people die? What if the healers Raise a lot, and need MP? What if they die after using Lucid Dreaming and need MP? What if the DPS die, and they either haven’t taken Invigorate, or used it before and it’s still on CD? What if the melee don’t have Goad, or have already used it on someone? And PLDs and DRKs have no option for TP regen when they die, unlike WAR, who can use Equilibrium in Deliverance at least.

When content is on farm, and people aren’t dying, it isn’t that big of a deal when you use them, because you won’t need Tactician for TP regen (Refresh is still needed not only for healer’s MP, but to extend Foe’s Requiem, because it’s more practical to extend it rather than cast it more because the BRD sacrifices a GCD each cast). But for prog, the idea behind Tactician and Refresh is to provide TP/MP regen and support through multiple deaths in order for a group to progress/make it to enrage/clear, not for the BRD or MCH to manage their own hate because the developers couldn’t be bothered to give them a queller like every other DPS job has.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Asking for Diversion is not game-breaking for either of the jobs, though. It’s giving them an enmity queller all other DPS jobs have access to. Considering BRD/MCH still have some of the strongest burst in the game during their openers, it’s definitely needed.

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Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

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All other jobs have access to Diversion, and casters have Diversion AND Lucid—one queller and one dump. BRD/MCH has no queller. Enmity quellers and enmity dumps act completely different from one another.

In order for aggro to be dumped, you have to build it first. When you’re quelling enmity, you’re quelling how much builds up. BRD and MCH can manage 9 to 10k bursts in their openers. A queller would benefit them far more than a dump. They could remove the enmity dump aspect from Refresh and Tactician entirely if they wanted to give ranged physical DPS Diversion. I’d prefer that, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

All other jobs have access to Diversion, and casters have Diversion AND Lucid—one queller and one dump. BRD/MCH has no queller. Enmity quellers and enmity dumps act completely different from one another.

In order for aggro to be dumped, you have to build it first. When you’re quelling enmity, you’re quelling how much builds up. BRD and MCH can manage 9 to 10k bursts in their openers. A queller would benefit them far more than a dump.

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You don't get it. By your logic you'll be adding a third enmity ability to Physical Rangeds making them the only role with 3 abilities for it. So far the only DPS with that is NIN because it's part of their support toolset. Also by your reasoning of "they're one of the burstiest" Warriors should also have diversion. And that ain't happening. Casters have those two Skills and only one of them use both. RDM actually would be able to live without Lucid if their rotation wasn't MP negative without it. SMN rarely ever needs enmity control and BLM can easily live without Diversion.

Also you're underestimating the power of literally cutting your enmity in half. WHM and AST are jobs that generate ridiculous amounts of enmity if they so desire and they only have one, meanwhile BRD and MCH have two. If you're having problems with enmity either your tanks are slacking or you are. What it's needed in this situation isn't a new crutch. It's playing better.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

You don't get it.

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Actually, you don't. Only Bard and Machinist need to waste a resource to dump their enmity. Lucid will almost never be used when any of the casters are anywhere close to full MP, thus it provides a secondary benefit. In the event say, Red Mage or Black Mage misused Lucid, well, only they suffer. If people have died but the Bard already burned Tactician to half their enmity, better hope for downtime otherwise no TP.

Regardless, Diversion is simply better. Bard and Machinist have exceedingly high aggro burst yet low sustain. Diversion, meanwhile, reduces all aggro generated by 90% for 30 seconds; effectively covering their entire opener. In fact, let's apply some rough math. An optimal Bard burst is approximately 10,000. Tactician reduces that to 5,000 every three minutes. Diversion reduces it 1,000 as it negates 90% of how much aggro is generated. And you have it every two minutes. I wager most Ranged would happily trade the aggro perks of Tactician and Refresh for Diversion.

WAR is a tank, why would they ever need an aggro dampener or dump? Actually scratch that, WAR does have an aggro dump: Shirk, which becomes more useful to MT the more enmity they generated in the first place, so again diversion would be counter-intuitive. Compare to BRD/MCH's burst: nobody benefits from them nearly overtaking the tank every single pull. It means instead of smokescreening a WHM or an AST, the BRD or MCH needs to be smokescreened instead.

Sure, that can also be argued to be the point of Ninja. But for jobs whose entire point is party support, why is so much of their aggro dampening and damage outsourced to other party members? And as has been said by many people, burning one of the aggro dumps selfishly has potential to harm the whole party.

"Playing better" is also the answer to nearly anything to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

In the event say, Red Mage or Black Mage misused Lucid, well, only they suffer. If people have died but the Bard already burned Tactician to half their enmity, better hope for downtime otherwise no TP.

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And that's why Invigorate still exists. Although you're not entirely wrong, outside of that saying the melee is being punished by dying past Tactician is bad well, yes it is. But again they died, if death had no punishment in the game no one would care about dying. There has to be punishments to deaths to incentivise players on avoiding it.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, Diversion is simply better.

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If Diversion would simply be better you wouldn't see BLMs running without it. Which they do, constantly. The example your provided only shows someone didn't slot Invigorate in a run with possibility of death and got hurt because of it. If you're progressing a fight or expect deaths to happen you should slot the skills to play around it.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

WAR is a tank, why would they ever need an aggro dampener or dump? Actually scratch that, WAR does have an aggro dump: Shirk, which becomes more useful to MT the more enmity they generated in the first place, so again diversion would be counter-intuitive. Compare to BRD/MCH's burst: nobody benefits from them nearly overtaking the tank every single pull. It means instead of smokescreening a WHM or an AST, the BRD or MCH needs to be smokescreened instead.

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Yes it's silly to think WAR should have it. I only stated that to show how Diversion isn't a need for only because your burst is high. Because WAR also falls on that category while having less aggro dumps.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

You don't get it. By your logic you'll be adding a third enmity ability to Physical Rangeds making them the only role with 3 abilities for it.

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I said they could remove the enmity dumps from Refresh and Tactician if they wanted to give physical ranged Diversion. Please read my post again. A queller would be far more welcome than a dump because BRD/MCH generate all their enmity within the first 30 seconds of a given fight during their opening burst.

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So far the only DPS with that is NIN because it's part of their support toolset.

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You’re wrong here. NINs can’t use Smokescreen on themselves. Shadewalker doesn’t quell their enmity, but instead gives it to a target. That’s not the same as quelling it or reducing it by half. They have access to Diversion, but they don’t have any other queller or dump outside of that.

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Also by your reasoning of "they're one of the burstiest"

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It’s a solid reasoning because it’s true. The only other jobs that have 9~10k bursts are the casters...which also have access to Diversion AND Lucid Dreaming.

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Warriors should also have diversion.

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WAR is a tank, and with the 4.2 changes, they would always be MT anyways, because they can Defiance > Unchained > switch to Deliverance and lose nothing. They’re supposed to be generating aggro.

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Casters have those two Skills and only one of them use both. RDM actually would be able to live without Lucid if their rotation wasn't MP negative without it. SMN rarely ever needs enmity control and BLM can easily live without Diversion.

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If you’re a caster not making use of both Diversion and Lucid, then you aren’t playing correctly. I’ve seen BLMs use both, even though Lucid is worthless to them in terms of MP regeneration. RDMs use both. SMNs use both. Sure, they can live without one or the other, but they have access to both. And good casters use both. If you aren’t, then you aren’t playing well.

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Also you're underestimating the power of literally cutting your enmity in half. WHM and AST are jobs that generate ridiculous amounts of enmity if they so desire and they only have one, meanwhile BRD and MCH have two. If you're having problems with enmity either your tanks are slacking or you are. What it's needed in this situation isn't a new crutch. It's playing better.

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Okay, first: it’s really hard for an AST to generate a lot of aggro by healing—even when they are overhealing. Their sects have built-in enmity reduction. WHM is different because it’s healing is monstrous, and if they have a high overheal, overheal build aggro at twice the rate that non-overheals. But the difference between a WHM and a BRD is that a WHM is generating aggro throughout an entire fight with their healing, and especially if they are overhealing (which it’s nigh impossible to not have an overheal on WHM, and again, overheal generates double the enmity of non-overheal). A BRD generates the majority their aggro at once in their opening burst, and then not that much during their sustain.

It’s not a “playing better” situation. It’s the fact that BRD/MCH have to actually build enough hate to rip off of a tank to use Tactician/Refresh and it be effective as an aggro dump, which their primary function is party support anyways. A queller would be far more desired by both during openers as opposed to a dump.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

And that's why Invigorate still exists.

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And what about when you’re progging, a melee gets hit by something, dies, accepts Raise > Invigorate...but then die again before Invigorate is back off of CD? Then it’s up to the BRD/MCH with Tactician to provide them TP... but they can’t if they are forced to use it after their opener to dump their aggro. Same thing with Refresh: healer used Lucid for MP regen (or for WHM in V4S, aggro dump if you didn’t have a PLD to Cover them for Aero III), dies, is raised... but now has no MP. BRD/MCH should be able to provide them with MP....but if they’ve had to Refresh to dump their aggro, well, they can’t.

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If Diversion would simply be better you wouldn't see BLMs running without it. Which they do, constantly. The example your provided only shows someone didn't slot Invigorate in a run with possibility of death and got hurt because of it. If you're progressing a fight or expect deaths to happen you should slot the skills to play around it.

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Diversion is still better. It reduces your enmity generation by 90%, where Tactician/Refresh only dumps it in half.

Take a 9k burst from a BRD’s opener:
> with Tactician that dumps it to 4.5k in terms of aggro, since aggro generation for BRD is x1.0 for each skill (50%)
> with Diversion, that quells it to 900 (90%)

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Yes it's silly to think WAR should have it. I only stated that to show how Diversion isn't a need for only because your burst is high. Because WAR also falls on that category while having less aggro dumps.

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You can’t attempt to make my argument “look silly” by making silly arguments as counters. That’s not how debating works.



Tanks don’t seem to realize how bursty BRD/MCH really is; well, people in general don’t seem to realize how bursty they are. The amount of times I have seen BRDs or MCHs rip off of tanks in the middle of their openers... if they had an enmity queller, that wouldn’t be a problem.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Yes it's silly to think WAR should have it. I only stated that to show how Diversion isn't a need for only because your burst is high. Because WAR also falls on that category while having less aggro dumps.

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But again...WAR is a tank, and it's supposed to be generating aggro. Unless you're insinuating that Bard and Machinist are tanks?

To swap it around, a tank's job is aggro generation and manipulation; a dps's is obviously dps. A tank with diversion would be like a dps with an ability that drops their damage output.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

But again...WAR is a tank, and it's supposed to be generating aggro. Unless you're insinuating that Bard and Machinist are tanks?

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I'm talking about situations they aren't pulling the boss. Its a bad situation example just to fit the guy's logic. Don't sweat about it. They said the burst being high makes it possible to rip aggro too early in a fight and Warriors actually have that capacity given certains circumstances. Just like a lot of other jobs do anyways. Since IR's chance you can see WAR enmity skyrocket when they aren't the ones to pull.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And what about when you’re progging, a melee gets hit by something, dies, accepts Raise > Invigorate...but then die again before Invigorate is back off of CD? Then it’s up to the BRD/MCH with Tactician to provide them TP... but they can’t if they are forced to use it after their opener to dump their aggro. Same thing with Refresh: healer used Lucid for MP regen (or for WHM in V4S, aggro dump if you didn’t have a PLD to Cover them for Aero III), dies, is raised... but now has no MP. BRD/MCH should be able to provide them with MP....but if they’ve had to Refresh to dump their aggro, well, they can’t.

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It's also their job to avoid death. So don't blame yourself for it. Just say it's not up yet and keep playing the game. You're beating youeself for other player's mistakes too much. I've been on the melee side of this comparison as RDM on the MP concern. It sucks but I know it was my fault at the end. If they're blaming you for it they are just being really silly.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

I'm talking about situations they aren't pulling the boss. Its a bad situation example just to fit the guy's logic. Don't sweat about it. They said the burst being high makes it possible to rip aggro too early in a fight and Warriors actually have that capacity given certains circumstances. Just like a lot of other jobs do anyways. Since IR's chance you can see WAR enmity skyrocket when they aren't the ones to pull.

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WARs are always supposed to be the MT—they will always be pulling the boss. Therefore, them pulling aggro won’t be an issue because they’re supposed to MT. They lose nothing by doing so ever since Unchained was removed from sharing the same CD as Inner Release.

You don’t see WARs ripping bosses off of other tanks—you see DPS that have either no option to quell their burst, or who refuse to quell it, ripping off of them.

EDIT: I edit this to fix a typo, and now half of my post is gone. WTF.

Yes, that's why I said it was a silly example. I agree WAR should be pulling, its really good anyways. But they aren't everytime. You can't control how every player wants to play the game. Which lead to: the Warrior will be a better player if they pull. Which also leads to: they're a good player if they keep enmity to them as a main tank. Which leads into...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

It’s not a “playing better” situation.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

"Playing better" is also the answer to nearly anything to be honest.

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I have nothing else to add to the discussion. And do mind I agree with some points you all brought. I just think adding Diversion to BRDs would be silly and the reason they didn't is to make uncoordinated group's gameplay flow better. And I agree on everything you said on how Diversion could add up to BRD/MCH. I just think the reasons you been providing aren't strong enough. And my final answer to the OP question is: Yes, they can. But it would fit only very specific niches where playing better is a more reasonable and healthier option.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

And that's why Invigorate still exists. Although you're not entirely wrong, outside of that saying the melee is being punished by dying past Tactician is bad well, yes it is. But again they died, if death had no punishment in the game no one would care about dying. There has to be punishments to deaths to incentivise players on avoiding it.

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Paladin and Dark Knight wish they had access to that. Even Warrior only gets 200 TP from Equilibrium. Death has a punishment, you suffer a 25% penalty towards all your stats except vitality; 50% if it happens within that 90 second interval. I can assure you whenever I die, TP is far less a concern than my damage plummeting. You really ought to stop using these comparisons. They're quite bad.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

If Diversion would simply be better you wouldn't see BLMs running without it. Which they do, constantly. The example your provided only shows someone didn't slot Invigorate in a run with possibility of death and got hurt because of it. If you're progressing a fight or expect deaths to happen you should slot the skills to play around it.

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First and foremost, most optimal Caster guides suggest both, though put more emphasis on at least having one. Second, casters generate much higher sustained enmity than ranged whereas the latter only needs aggro cuts in their opener. Basically, it boils down to Diversion is more useful to Bard and Machinist.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

It's also their job to avoid death. So don't blame yourself for it. Just say it's not up yet and keep playing the game. You're beating youeself for other player's mistakes too much. I've been on the melee side of this comparison as RDM on the MP concern. It sucks but I know it was my fault at the end. If they're blaming you for it they are just being really silly.

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I responded to this is my last post, but the forum deleted half of it when I went in to fix a typo, so I’ll just post the response again.

I don’t blame myself when they die. But I’m supposed to be able to provide them support in the event that they do. I can’t do that if I’m having to use Tactician or Refresh to save my own skin.

I just think they should consider a rework. Remove the dumps from Tactician and Refresh, allow them to be used as actual support skills as opposed to enmity dumps for the BRD/MCH carrying them, and allow BRD/MCH to take Diversion, which will benefit them more during an opener, a Minuet+RS phase, or a Wildfire. A queller is far more practical for them than a dump, because they have to basically rip hate or be on the brink of it in order for the dump to be effective. All other DPS jobs use Diversion in their opener, but BRD/MCH have no such option, which is usually why you see them right on the brink of ripping hate from even a good tank.


There have been numerous times I’ve seen a BRD/MCH rip off of a tank (good tanks and unsuspecting ones, because I really feel like people underestimate just how much power is in a good BRD’s/MCH’s opener), and promptly get smacked by the boss. And they can’t do anything about it. By the time they hit Tactician, well, they’re usually one-hit KO’d or fairly close to it. And, if you’re progging, well, you just really have to hope that no one needs TP (or MP if you hit Refresh) in the next 3 minutes. Removing the dumps from those two skills and giving them Diversion solves each of those issues.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

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It's precisely because the comparison is bad that it shouldn't be necessary. And yet it is. A tank will necessarily struggle to hold hate against a Bard bursting up to 8k even as other DPS bursting over 10k are barely visible on the enmity bars, all so that, as soon as the Bard does rip hate, their enmity is reduced to such a low amount that it'll be several minutes before they'll need a single enmity skill against the same enemy, despite then ripping every add, too. None of that is smooth.

An retroactive enmity dump is no replacement for a present enmity reduction.

And as for the ridiculous, let's note this at least: Diversion, when identical in effect but known simply as Quelling Strikes instead, was a Bard/Archer skill, and even then barely reeled in Bard burst sufficiently.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you’re a caster not making use of both Diversion and Lucid, then you aren’t playing correctly. I’ve seen BLMs use both, even though Lucid is worthless to them in terms of MP regeneration. RDMs use both. SMNs use both. Sure, they can live without one or the other, but they have access to both. And good casters use both. If you aren’t, then you aren’t playing well.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

First and foremost, most optimal Caster guides suggest both, though put more emphasis on at least having one. Second, casters generate much higher sustained enmity than ranged whereas the latter only needs aggro cuts in their opener. Basically, it boils down to Diversion is more useful to Bard and Machinist.

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I disagree with the first point HyoMin as Bourne had it more on point of the situation with casters. It's easy to assume someone mustn't be playing their job well if they don't have BOTH aggro actions but things are never so black and white. There are some great players out there that can get through content without using either and be on point but doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong though if they are still getting the same result as someone who does use them. Lucid is generally the go-to for SMN/RDM and Diversion BLM (seeing as the latter doesn't need Refresh). It's also very situational and cross roles mean you can't make room for everything so really depends on the content and how you prefer to play.

I'm the end Diversion used to be Quelling and was accessable to BRD/MCH and although things have changed since HW, the need for them still brings more perks than negatives. Tactician/Refresh effects too many players to be used selfishly compared to Lucid.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Yeah but does all other jobs have access to two skills to cut their enmity in a half? This comparison is bad and it's deffinetively not needed.

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Actually... most of them, yes...
Caster have Diversion(reduce by 90%) and Lucid Dreaming (half enmity)
Dragoon has Diversion (reduce by 90%) and Elusive Jump (half enmity)
Ninja has Diversion, Smokescreen (to reduce someone else enmity) and Silhouette to give its aggro to the tank.

Only Monk and Samurai only have access to diversion, but other dps do have a second or a third way to deal with that.

But for caster, since they have diversion, they don't need to burn their mana refresh to dump their aggro.
And when they'll need that mana refresh, the aggro dump is an extra.

In the end, none of them has to "waste" such ressources for aggro.

Please get some info before saying things.

Quelling strikes rarely worked as good as just having my enmity cut in half does now. So no I don't want to give up an enmity dump for something that doesn't work as well.

As a main mch, I don't feel like I need a diversion. Yes when my opener wlidfire explode I'll be second with ennemity. Let's proc tacticien, others aren't supposed to die.
On refresh, I still don't care about this, I proc this after second wlidfire no matter what. And then I'll repeat it as an enemity cut after each WF. Meaning it's on precise timer so heals adapts their mana reg. Stop thinking those are support skills and have to be held. Using them to lower your enemity will also give the bonus to your mates so they'll proc their regen later.
Diversion is nice, I still don't need one more oGCD when preparing my burst.

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Quelling strikes rarely worked as good as just having my enmity cut in half does now. So no I don't want to give up an enmity dump for something that doesn't work as well.

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90% over 30 seconds would take 54 seconds for a enmity-halving skill to come even against. Noting also that Diversion will be ready for recast in minutes rather than Tactician/Refresh's 3 minutes, those 54 seconds make the skill cut awfully even in total effective throughput in any fight under 7 minutes. When you consider also how valuable that opening half-minute is to overall DPS, and therefore how much effective (tank) DPS can be gained through reduced enmity needs, I'd personally have to consider Diversion the one of greater use even if a tank easily could hold back a Bard's full burst without it -- which, they frequently cannot.

This is less required for a MCH, since at least Wildfire gives more time for the tank to catch up compared to an instantaneous bonus and the turret divert's nearly auto-attack's portion of damage off the MCH itself, but Bard's wholly personal and undelayed enmity, with even more immediate burst if Barraging EA or generating a rapid RA than MCH is enough to make a NIN worthwhile if even just for its enmity tools in the initial burst.

Halving enmity mean you already generate it.
Reducing it from the beginning make you generate less.

Halving works well outside of opener and on one target.
Diversion is good for big burst and also, add pop (cause yes, that's also something to note)

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Quelling strikes rarely worked as good as just having my enmity cut in half does now. So no I don't want to give up an enmity dump for something that doesn't work as well.

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Actually Diversion reduces the enmity of all actions by 90% for 30 seconds, so you could say it almost works twice as well. :3

And, what would you be giving up? All they need to do is add it into Role Actions and you can pick if you wanna use it or not lol.

(Oops, people have answered this already as I was typing!)

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Originally Posted by ruskie

Quelling strikes rarely worked as good as just having my enmity cut in half does now. So no I don't want to give up an enmity dump for something that doesn't work as well.

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The original Quelling Strikes wasn’t a 90% reduction in personal enmity for 30 seconds like Diversion is. If 90% reduction in your enmity isn’t enough to keep you from ripping aggro, then the problem lies with the main tank—whatever they are doing, it’s not enough to keep the boss on them even after the DPS have quelled their aggro.

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Originally Posted by Sethani

As a main mch, I don't feel like I need a diversion. Yes when my opener wlidfire explode I'll be second with ennemity. Let's proc tacticien, others aren't supposed to die.
On refresh, I still don't care about this, I proc this after second wlidfire no matter what. And then I'll repeat it as an enemity cut after each WF. Meaning it's on precise timer so heals adapts their mana reg. Stop thinking those are support skills and have to be held. Using them to lower your enemity will also give the bonus to your mates so they'll proc their regen later.
Diversion is nice, I still don't need one more oGCD when preparing my burst.

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No, people aren’t supposed to die...outside of progression. If you’re in the midst of prog, you shouldn’t have to blow your resource refreshers to save your own skin, because people are going to die during progression; healers are going to have to Raise them, and their MP is going to take a beating for it. But, if you’ve already popped Refresh to save yourself from ripping hate, well, sucks for those healers until Lucid Dreaming is off cooldown, I guess.

I object to the fact that BRD/MCH has to blow a support resource to dump their aggro, where as every other DPS has the option not to (Diversion over Lucid Dreaming for casters; melee have Diversion, and some melee jobs have other tools to manage hate, such as a DRG’s Elusive Jump). And, I don’t know about MCH, but I can rotate both Refresh and Tactician and still creep back up to 2nd in aggro when I’m playing BRD. BRD bursts basically every 80 seconds with Minuet + Raging Strikes (plus Barrage during that timeframe). Diversion, which quells your aggro by 90% for 30 seconds, would take care of all those issues, and I won’t have to blow a support resource for my aggro.

Would Bards and Machinists make good use of Diversion? Yes they would.

I personally don't have any issues with Tactician and Refresh at the moment. When doing progressions, all our melees are taking Invigorate and Goad until it is not needed. So I don't need to save Tactician on progression. As for Refresh, I ask our healers if they want me to save it or not. They do understand that saving it means less raid dps (less Foe, less MP for Healers/PLD). So they just tell me to keep it on CD until we reach a block phase (a phase that we need more practice on) then I will save Refresh for that phase.

keeping refresh on CD means I generally have no enmity issues (As long as tanks are using Shirk). I use Tactician when MT dies, ads phase, or enmity resets etc.. But having Diversion will be much better for such cases. So in the end, having Diversion will only change my Tactician usage, not Refresh. Still good to have.

Would be greatful to have so I'm not forced to tactician during progs just to reduce enmity. As I pug via rf/df in a JP server for progs, I tend to save refresh for healer mp and tactician for if anyone else tp dependent dies incase they did not take tp restoring job skills. But I still use tact if enmity creeps up high to be safe and pray for my tp based members to not fall if they did not take tp restoring role skills.

On BRD I'm using Foes+Refresh pre-pull in the opener and on CD with Foes even during prog. My SCH is taking advantage of this to set up critlo during the pre pull while not losing MP. My WHM could do the same but opts not to use Medica II in order to save aggro.

I would much rather have the option of picking between Tactician, Diversion, and Invigorate, but it works as is. There isn't a fight where TP is a major concern given the hard fights these days are almost always total wipes if 1-2 of us dies.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The original Quelling Strikes wasn’t a 90% reduction in personal enmity for 30 seconds like Diversion is. If 90% reduction in your enmity isn’t enough to keep you from ripping aggro, then the problem lies with the main tank—whatever they are doing, it’s not enough to keep the boss on them even after the DPS have quelled their aggro.

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Yeah, that would work(was mostly thinking with the old quelling strikes) - but still I can't go with the - remove the enmity dump in place of diversion. That dump has saved more or less everyone quite a few times. MT dies, wait for voke, dump enmity - gives OT some breathing room with enmity for that spot. Could I see myself swapping Tactician for Diversion - depending on the fight - likely.