Idea: Class split idea for all jobs

Arcanist can split into Summoner and Scholar, both wielding books for their main hand. This idea builds on that for the other 14 jobs.

Marauder splits into Warrior (tank) and Viking (dps). Viking wields two axes and instead of defiance and deliverance, it gains a Carnage gauge that increases attack speed and be spent on abilities. The Viking would dual world axes.

Gladiator splits into Paladin (tank) and Cleric (healer). The cleric wields a mace and uses a combination of instant cast heals and proc heals, similar to excog. Melee dps between heals and perhaps a beneficial group aura.

Dark Knight (tank) would have a split job into Reaper (dps) and wield a scythe that has a darkness pet to fight alongside him. The scythe would have a longer melee range, giving it more mobility.

More ideas in following posts

Conjurer splits into White Mage (healer) and Geomancer (magic dps) and there is a greater emphasis on combining elemental attacks. For instance, a water opening spell with an earth finisher spell might trigger a mudslide aoe attack, or a earth starter air finisher that is a dust storm.

Astrologian (healer) splits into Time Mage (magic dps) that 6 new cards for attack combos, or spell enhancers. It also puts a miriade of status effects on mobs

Yoshi had already stated that he ended up not liking the way ACN split into two jobs, so I can't see it happening to other classes.

Monk (dps) splits into Dancer (healer) as another melee dps healer who uses chakras as either currency for big heals or as enhancements on heals, the dps would rotate on encumbering the mob with 3 or so dots as well as status effects.

Ninja (dps) splits into Shadow walker (tank) who uses a lot of evasion as well as their version of hallowed ground being a shadow clone who has all threat transferred to this clone to eat a tankbuster, then aggro goes back to ninja. Perhaps 3 clones summoned at a time so aoe would kill all 3 but single target gangbusters need 3 shots to break the shadow clone defense.

Machinist (ranged) into Gunblade ( melee) with all the cool melee things that Gunblade are known for.

Bard (ranged) into Performer. I don't know more of what could be done here.

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Originally Posted by SketchyBrush

Machinist (ranged) into Gunblade ( melee) with all the cool melee things that Gunblade are known for.

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Guns and...blades?

Dragoon transfers into Halbedier, who uses their spears more in a defensive way, perhaps creating a line of pikes for defense and calls on dragon power for natural scales

Samurai would turn into a Ronin who uses 2 katana for some interesting dual wielding

Black Mage could have some sort of void caster variant, not sure on this one.

Red Mage could have a Blue Mage melee dps variant.

And finally Scholar already has Summoner.

I truly apologize for typos, but that's just an idea to give every base job multiple ways to play.

This idea gives us 6 tanks, 6 healers. 7 melee, 3 ranged, and 6 or 7 casters

Edit your original post to get unlimited text allowance.

Though I should mention that this will never happen because split jobs are terrible and cause a lot of problems for the devs (they have said as much)

I'm not familiar with forum format, sorry for replies to fill in all my ideas

Arcanist was the "test subject" and it failed. They want to go one further in the opposite direction and retroactively remove the classes completely. So GLA would be axed and you would just start off as PLD etc. IDK if they will do it, but it was mentioned as a possible change, with the change also opening up weapon types to broader use.

Except they can't remove the existing classes completely because the classes are fundamentally tied into not only the game's storyline but gameplay, it's not just a simple matter of changing a class's name to a Job from level 1.

Using your GLA example, the GLA's Guild is the Colosseum, which is a fundamental part of Ul'dah's story and lore. Just changing GLA to PLD would require a whole series of new quests would have to be written to 'explain' how a new adventurer is suddenly a 'free PLD' where as the game's storyline currently states outright that the skills of the Sultansworn are a tightly guarded secret and that they're only now passing on their knowledge to a select few veteran (not new) GLAs. Then there are all the enemies that have the class as well have to suddenly have their class name changed to reflect it for consistency, which again does not work when it's a Job that is supposedly rare (half the Jobs are outright stated as being forbidden or forgotten, like WHM). See my point? Pull one loose thread and the whole thing unravels, it's just not worth the effort on SE's part.

Hence, new Jobs added to the game will continue to be classless but the existing classes will have to remain as they're the Armoury System's very foundation (hence you won't see a FFXI-style system of Job and weapon type being separate and being able to equip multiple weapon types to a single Job).

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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Thats easy to fix. GLA upgrades to PLD automatically when the soul crystal is obtained through the quest much like stone I, II, aero I, II etc. The soul crystal is no longer an item, and is just lore exposition, and the classes and jobs are only tied to lore and not gameplay.

Frankly, I think they could pull this off easily.

First, remove traits for classes and give them to jobs. This way, you could have the same basic skill that would act differently depending on the job.
Second, remove bonus points, they are meaningless. No more "I need to split between INT and MND, my job is ruined !"
And third, just reorganise the order at which you learn class and job skills to better separate them :

For example, imagine if GLA would learn these skills :

• Fast Blade (Unchanged)
• Fight or Flight (Unchanged)
• Savage Blade (Enmity removed)
• Riot Blade (Down to level 6)
• Shield Stance (Renamed Shield Oath for GLA at level 10)
• Total Eclipse (Down to level 15)
• Shield Lob (Up to level 18, enmity removed)
• Shield Bash (Up to level 26)
• Rage Of Halone (Up to level 30, enmity removed)
• Sword Stance (Renamed Sword Oath for GLA at level 38)
• Tempered Will (Unchanged)
• Goring Blade (Down to level 46)
• Royal Authority (Down to level 48)
• Circle Of Scorn (Enmity removed)

You could reorganise PLD's skill like this :

• Flash (Up to level 30)
• Sentinel (Down to level 35)
• Spirits Within (Up to level 40)
• Shield Swipe (Up to level 45)
• Hallowed Ground (Unchanged)
• Sheltron (Unchanged)
• Bulwark (Up to level 54)
• Divine Veil (Unchanged)
• Clemency (Unchanged)
• Cover (Up to level 60)
• ...and every skill above 60 wouldn't be changed

On top of that, you remove all traits from GLA and give these to PLD :

• Enhanced vitality I (Unchanged)
• Enhanced Enmity I (Give enmity bonus to Savage Blade, Shield Lob and Rage Of Halone, level 30)
• Enhanced vitality II (Unchanged)
• Enhanced Enmity II (Give enmity bonus to Circle Of Scorn, level 50)
• ...and every trait above 50 wouldn't be changed

This may seem complicated, but, technically, at level 60 and 70, it would give the exact same PLD we already have. A level 50 PLD would be stronger, but mainly more interesting by already having its 3 combos.

But, on top of that, a GLA would basically only have one real tanking skill, "Shield Stance", that would be enough to tank every content before obtaining the job crystal when paired with the tank role skills, allowing this core kit to fit an hypothetic DPS job added to GLA.

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Originally Posted by Nezerius

Yoshi had already stated that he ended up not liking the way ACN split into two jobs, so I can't see it happening to other classes.

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But he makes that assumption over a near worst-possible test case, one in which fatal flaws were designed in -- obviously not with the intention to fail, but each certainly implemented intentionally.

SCH and SMN didn't need to share abilities or traits, which he implied at the time was something of the Achilles heel of split-job designs. That was done intentionally then and has since been largely undone. Even traits prior to level 30 are now replaced between SMn and SCH, for instance.

Heck, he didn't even need to cause them to have shared experience. He could have just as easily made SMN alone the natural extension of ACN, while SCH is leveled separately, as per their weapon and gear distinctions.


On topic:

Personally, the job as solely a second half of a given class has never made sense to me. The stuff of any job is simply an auxiliary or advanced toolkit which may or may not synergize specifically with a given weapon, and most have no reason to be the only jobs matchable with the weapons they currently match.

I could easily see Gladiator and Paladin as both being viable options, with Gladiator being more diverse in that it can has a largely pool or open skills by which to borrow mechanical traits and/or abilities from other classes, but optimally works itself into a counteroffensive opportunistic sort of swap-tank. I could see Archer as the most situationally-matchable and most fluid of the trio of the offensively-supportive Ranger, raid-supportive Bard, and the base Archer class. I could see Ronin allowing for considerably more flexibility at the cost of firepower and (unless borrowing from tanks) sturdiness compared to Samurai. I could see Rogue diversifying into Thief (based around item (ability) steals, traps, and parts management), Assassin (poisons and strikes of opportunity), and Ninja (ninjutsu and deception), or retuning the base kit to fit highly specific needs at lesser general output. A Lancer could move on to the way of the Adept or Dragoon, or even tune up Lancer to be a pretty damn good half-tank or point-support. Etc., etc.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Frankly, I think they could pull this off easily.

<snip>

This may seem complicated, but, technically, at level 60 and 70, it would give the exact same PLD we already have. A level 50 PLD would be stronger, but mainly more interesting by already having its 3 combos.

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That would certainly be nice.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That would certainly be nice.

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I could see them restructuring classes, at least weapon skill classes, around the same pattern as Samurai - Get all your basic rotation stuff by 50, and then every 'expansion' adds new priority skills.

The way we're set now they've got a substantial workload every expansion, where each Job gets restructured a bit to support the ability pruning and updating the main rotation. Not a bad thing, but some of the Jobs have done well with this and some have felt kind of meh.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I could see them restructuring classes, at least weapon skill classes, around the same pattern as Samurai - Get all your basic rotation stuff by 50, and then every 'expansion' adds new priority skills.

The way we're set now they've got a substantial workload every expansion, where each Job gets restructured a bit to support the ability pruning and updating the main rotation. Not a bad thing, but some of the Jobs have done well with this and some have felt kind of meh.

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That is honestly the only reason I'm somewhat okay with the idea of ripping out the FF-like areas of customization as we have, assuming (falsely) that it's one or the other: at least I can start the leveling process with more than just 1, 1, 1 and then 1-2, 1-2, 1-2 all in the hopes of eventually being able to hit 1-2-3, 1-2-3...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Edit your original post to get unlimited text allowance.

Though I should mention that this will never happen because split jobs are terrible and cause a lot of problems for the devs (they have said as much)

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I agree it will never happen, I don't agree that it's a terrible idea though. Arcanist was handled poorly in the beginning but it doesn't mean the idea is without merit.

As stated a few times they don't want to do split jobs but I do like a few of ur job descriptions like geomancer being a sort of ninja caster where they combine skills to make different effects happen.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Edit your original post to get unlimited text allowance.

Though I should mention that this will never happen because split jobs are terrible and cause a lot of problems for the devs (they have said as much)

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Anything is terrible and problematic when you implement it terribly and problematically.

Should we likewise say that or seamless swimming is impossible or that swimming in any form is inherently clunky and unable to be meaningfully integrated into anything else, just because it was designed as such here?

Should we say that movement skills are inherently laggy by concept, just because Yaten, Repelling Shot, Elusive, and our various charges are slow to adjust where the servers consider our characters are located?

I say we need to quit speaking on behalf of the game developers. We are the consumers and we should ask what we want for instead of just shooting down other requests because "Game designers said it won't happen". If there is a request that is big enough they will figure out how to make it work (housing is a perfect example as they continuously said we can't add more wards and boom they did). Whether it is equipping the job crystal changes the traits/specific base actions.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I say we need to quit speaking on behalf of the game developers. We are the consumers and we should ask what we want for instead of just shooting down other requests because "Game designers said it won't happen". If there is a request that is big enough they will figure out how to make it work (housing is a perfect example as they continuously said we can't add more wards and boom they did). Whether it is equipping the job crystal changes the traits/specific base actions.

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No, they won't listen to the community for things like this. Releasing a new branch is the same as releasing a new job except that you have tons of contrains and due to the game engine being what it is, the less things your jobs share, the better. It also prevent original design unless you're willing to put triats every level changing your entire tool kit. Look at RDM idea before we had HW with "stand alone jobs".
Most people were like "oh you would need Conjurer and Thaumaturg lv 30 and then you'd be able to cast all the element." and yet no one had any remotely interesting idea when it comes to gameplay. The RDM we currently have is very unique in every possible way compared to what you could do by taking all the low level skills from WHM and BLM. Not even talking about all the issue regarding balance giving RDM access to medica. (almost every group would replace a healer with a RDM). I mean yes we could argue 'but traits would change RDM spells so that it would be what is is now". Sounds nice, let's give the RDM 1 trait for every spells he has to turn it into what it currently is.

This is why SMN got their DoTs upgraded to a new rank for instance, so that if SMN needs a DoT buff, it won't buff the SCH at the same time)

If you take a look at summoner, beside the core mechanic of Etherflux. They share nearly 0 skills at max level.
Beside Bane, RuinII, Rouse and Shadowflare and arguably Rez, these two jobs have no regular skill to use in common. I didn't even list Energy Drain because only the SCH actually uses it. Summon just have the same icons, they don't summon the same pets.
I would'nt be surprised that at lv80 SMN/SCH get upgraded version of some of these spells making them share 0 skills in the end. (beside Rez)


They do not want to do it because it brings nothing to the game and just makes everything more complicated. The former poster listed enough jobs for 5 expansions. The only difference between his jobs idea and actual new job would be that they share some skills until 50 which would gradually be upgraded to newer rank to end up having 0 shared skills

This is not toward you but many people compare what other games did.
Pointing at games like WoW or Rift having many specs is ridiculous because WoW nearly destroyed the entire concept of specilisation.
You do not specialise anymore.
You choose a branch and beside "some" of your utility spells, your entire toolkit is different. (Like SMN and SCH except that there are much more utility things in WoW)
Rift has a tons of talent tree yet, as everyone predicted from day one, there is only a few viable spec and that's it. Having over 9999 different talent combination is useless if 9990 are useless. (This is also why they don't include a talent tree, there's no point to put choice if everyone makes the same choice. This is especially true for dps (a bit less for healers))

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

stuff.

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You just proved my point. There are creative ways to do things and less creative ways. I mainly get exhausted by people shooting down others ideas because "Devs won't do it". Honestly it is the lamest and most unproductive response.

Also I wouldn't say RDM is unique and if anything it is quite bland. I would also say the same about SAM, except SAM has bigger hits (big hits are fun). If you look at the core principles of almost all the DPS it is Dots, Self Buff, Target Debuff, other stuff and repeat. Sure they may have different names. We have locked combos on almost all classes which is why MCH was so refreshing in HW. Sure it was difficult but it was the most unique class to play. MNK in ARR and still today is very unique with abilities being stance based. Because instead of having ABC and DEF combos you could do AEC, AEF, etc, etc. DRG they made more interesting in SB but other than that everything is kind of meh. Nothing really new or unique. The class system was unique and it was fresh. Maybe because I am a FF11 fan where subclasses ruled the day.

Fun idea, but considering the developers struggle to make 2 jobs per expansion, I somehow don’t see them upping that number to 14 per expansion

The developer team has already stated they will never do another job split like they did with SMN/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I say we need to quit speaking on behalf of the game developers. We are the consumers and we should ask what we want for instead of just shooting down other requests because "Game designers said it won't happen".

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Except with regards to job splits, the developers have said repeatedly they had a lot of issues with the SMN/SCH split, and how hard it was to balance the two. It will never happen again, because they literally said so.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except with regards to job splits, the developers have said repeatedly they had a lot of issues with the SMN/SCH split, and how hard it was to balance the two. It will never happen again, because they literally said so.

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This is sadly true. The logic to this is like complaining that a paper document wasn't sufficiently waterproof when left in a sink, so we should stop using paper altogether, but they have absolutely said that based on the SMN/SCH's failure (as per its blatantly errant) execution, never again will we see a job split.

RIP all possible decent implementations -- numerous were your lore- and mechanics-cohesive possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Pointing at games like WoW or Rift having many specs is ridiculous because WoW nearly destroyed the entire concept of specialization.

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This is patently false. WoW's specialization distinction has only increased over the years. The newest expansion will be the first turn away from increased distinction, and only to a minor extent. What has diminished is solely hybridization via talents, and even that isn't true of all specs.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

I say we need to quit speaking on behalf of the game developers. We are the consumers and we should ask what we want for instead of just shooting down other requests because "Game designers said it won't happen". If there is a request that is big enough they will figure out how to make it work (housing is a perfect example as they continuously said we can't add more wards and boom they did). Whether it is equipping the job crystal changes the traits/specific base actions.

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We the consumers have been asking for a lot of things but if they strictly refuse to do it, it won't happen. There are examples of things getting changed or implemented but there are also more changes or implements that we've been asking for years that haven't gotten done.

Rule #1: The customer is very rarely, if ever, right.

If there's a big enough request for McDonald's to function like Subway, it's pretty unlikely they're going to change their entire identity to satisfy that.

Just because lots of people request something doesn't make them entitled to the thing. Have you seen their responses to requests for parsers?

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Originally Posted by Hasrat

Rule #1: The customer is very rarely, if ever, right.

If there's a big enough request for McDonald's to function like Subway, it's pretty unlikely they're going to change their entire identity to satisfy that.

Just because lots of people request something doesn't make them entitled to the thing. Have you seen their responses to requests for parsers?

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There is so much fallacy in everything you have said. McDonald's has changed their identity many times. They used to make burgers in advance of an order and now they make them by the order. McDonalds was also very heavily focused on burgers for like FOREVER. They now have changed their model to include healthier options based on consumer demands. Comparing a sandwich shop and burger joint is a false equivalency. Subway even modified how they do sandwiches because of Quiznos. Subway never toasted their bread until Quiznos was stealing market share. If you are going to compare something don't make it so drastic.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

We the consumers have been asking for a lot of things but if they strictly refuse to do it, it won't happen. There are examples of things getting changed or implemented but there are also more changes or implements that we've been asking for years that haven't gotten done.

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Then continue to shut down fellow players "Because devs". How many times did we hear from Devs' "We can't add more housing or inventory space". I know I have heard it for a long time. Look we have more space, more wards (twice as many) and now even a chocobo saddlebag.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Then continue to shut down fellow players "Because devs". How many times did we hear from Devs' "We can't add more housing or inventory space". I know I have heard it for a long time. Look we have more space, more wards (twice as many) and now even a chocobo saddlebag.

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This. We've also been told point-blank that something is either too difficult to implement (not just "for now" but indefinitely) or technically impossible only to later have it added anyways. Something like branched jobs is tangential enough to the game that they can just sit on it for the sake of stubborness if they so desire, but other examples of "it's not happening" have been reversed just fine.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Then continue to shut down fellow players "Because devs". How many times did we hear from Devs' "We can't add more housing or inventory space". I know I have heard it for a long time. Look we have more space, more wards (twice as many) and now even a chocobo saddlebag.

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I'm not downing fellow players, but asking for something they obviously have no desire to do is like beating your head against a brick wall.

Even if they were going to do this, they would only do it for new classes but even then if you look at HW and SB there haven't been any starting classes, they start off as a job at a higher level. Come next exp for new jobs they will be jobs not classes as well and start at 60. To further this point look at how much of this game started off like XI in terms of elements, weapons, etc. now look at how much of the old system is left after 2.0 -very little.

As much as I would like to see more class/job splits and have more options it's not going to happen. if they ever did do it you can come back and say "told you so" and I will acknowledge I was wrong.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

I'm not downing fellow players, but asking for something they obviously have no desire to do is like beating your head against a brick wall.

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If you're not shutting down other players then why even chime in? "Because Devs said it won't happen". Let them bang their head against the wall. I am still beating my 3.0 PvP skillset is better even though I know it will never revert but at least change will happen if I continue beating my drum. It may not be exactly what I wanted but beating the drum leads to a path for improvement. It could be as simple as "Have Archer to 30" as a prerequisite to unlock Ranger. It is not a dual split but in a lore sense it is branching off of the Archer tree.

The opposite of not shutting someone down is coming up with a way for the devs to do it that is technically feasible and lore relevant.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This. We've also been told point-blank that something is either too difficult to implement (not just "for now" but indefinitely) or technically impossible only to later have it added anyways. Something like branched jobs is tangential enough to the game that they can just sit on it for the sake of stubborness if they so desire, but other examples of "it's not happening" have been reversed just fine.

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Ok, lets say that it is possible. What kind of resources would it take? Would we get less jobs in order to invest the development time into this? Is the payoff worth it?

While the dev team have shown that they can reverse their stances on certain issues, they have also shown that they don't really proactively design content and systems, and I don't really believe that if we were to get another split job that it would be any better.

SMN/SCH was a failed experiment that the devs didn't like, so was diadem, and it was just as bad the second time around. Hell, I'd like them to focus on making a glamour dresser that works as intended before I believe that they can reverse the split job situation.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

While the dev team have shown that they can reverse their stances on certain issues, they have also shown that they don't really proactively design content and systems...

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See, that is precisely what we shouldn't be content with -- content being implemented without forethought. That is why we had the SCH/SMN issues. That is why Diadem was a trainwreck. That is why the glamour dresser is approximately the most convoluted "solution" possible to what could have been much more simply solved.

More than wanting to see any particular issue reverted, I'd like to see XIV stop creating more left and right through the same core failings, and for the community to stop giving them a free pass after x months just because they've gotten used to the unnecessarily poor result.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Ok, lets say that it is possible. What kind of resources would it take? Would we get less jobs in order to invest the development time into this? Is the payoff worth it?

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Who knows but leveling classes and jobs is the most enjoyment i get out of the game. Glamour is the least of my concerns. I am almost going on a year with the same glamour. Different aspects of the game are more important to some than others and we don't equate all aspects of the game as equal worth. I honestly also don't care if they release another Extreme and/or Raid. I would be content if they just release more pvp maps. But again this is just me and we don't equate all things in this game as equal worth.

Which is why it is also frustrating to see players shooting down each other "Because of devs". So lets stop just shutting down other players and if you read my earlier post it doesn't have to be something technically they fix.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

It could be as simple as "Have Archer to 30" as a prerequisite to unlock Ranger. It is not a dual split but in a lore sense it is branching off of the Archer tree.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

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You might think of it that way, but in reality we're just trying to tell you the devs have no desire to do so. Certain things get implemented or changed but in reality this is something they're not going to go back on. To further the point even more, look at cross skills, they got killed.

MCH, AST, DRK, RDM, SAM are proof enough that the devs have started going the opposite way of branching, they don't want to deal with the whole class/job association anymore.

Now if you want something "constructive" instead of "shutting down" then bring back cross skills, but be of course if we did that people would only go back to wanting you to level said job in order to get said skills and not everyone should be forced into that. oops guess my positive turned into a negative again, so much for that idea.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Would we get less jobs in order to invest the development time into this?

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Frankly, I think it would be the exact opposite.

First, they wouldn't have to create as much skills since the class skills would simply be reused, and second, by branching from an existing class, people won't expect the new job to have a completely different identity, so they also won't have to do as much effort as they need when creating a brand new job. In fact, I'm pretty sure if they'd create a copy/paste of Deliverance-WAR classified as a DPS, lots of people would be pleased.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

To further the point even more, look at cross skills, they got killed.

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Which, for me, would in fact help branching. With role actions, for the same class, you have access to 10 totally different skills simply by changing crystal. Look at my example on page 2. How would you manage to create a DPS branching from GLA if its toolkit was still massively inclined towards defensive skills ? Now that Rampart, Convalescence, Provoke and co are gone, the only purely tanking skills GLA natively has are Sentinel and Bulwark.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

MCH, AST, DRK, RDM, SAM are proof enough that the devs have started going the opposite way of branching, they don't want to deal with the whole class/job association anymore.

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What is a branch? Does it have to be lore? Does it have to have the same base skills? Or does it build upon the foundation the other one set? SMN and SCH were broken IMO for more reasons than the so called balance. To me leveling just the Class leveled both jobs was broken but I can see why they had to do it. Another reason why I could see them not wanting to do a branching job similar to SCH/SMN is you do the quest and you're immediately X level of the class. Which is why they can do it via lore. You level Archer to 30 and you get to unlock the quest. It is the equivalent of doing MCH/AST but is a continuation of the Archer lore without the repurcussions of class balance.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Another reason why I could see them not wanting to do a branching job similar to SCH/SMN is you do the quest and you're immediately X level of the class.

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Would it be very different than starting DRK immediately at 30 or RDM at level 50 ?

I'd rather start each future new classes at level 1 while gaining branching jobs directly at the previous level cap than starting all future jobs at fairly high level.