Bard or Machinist?

Which should I roll first? Which is better? I know there's another forum post about this somewhere but I'm too lazy to find it.

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Originally Posted by MedSurgNursing

I'm too lazy to find it.

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I would tell you...but I'm also too lazy -.-

I would suggest BRD. MCH is very harder, and you need a good knowledge of the fight.
I'm playing both, and I would suggest BRD.

Currently, Bard is the "better" (read: more in-demand) of the two. Bard is also pretty much good-to-go right now, as far as balancing/job issues are concerned; whereas I have seen several posts about changes MCH needs for players to feel it functions properly.

Disclaimer: Bard is my only battle class at the moment and I'm in love with it.

If you're unsure, go Bard.
I love my Machinist aesthetically, but...
I've been playing less and less lately, because I love the idea of the MCH so much I don't want to play anything else, yet the gameplay is worse than merely ill-designed or unfun. It's straight up bad, to the point that playing it feels like work; I actually dread having to run duties and fight with it.
The gameplay is wildly complicated, but not for any of the right reasons. It feels like all the abilities are random and unrelated, but you happen to have Wildfire, so the only overarching logic around the gameplay becomes "Do as much as possible inside Wildfire".
Compare this to something like the SAM who has clear logic in their gameplay; maintain buffs/debuff, build Sen and Kenki, spend them on big hitters.
The result is an insane rotation meant to get the most from a sea of chaos, that could only be discovered after incredible amounts of trial and error, parses and math. Without a cohesive flow to anything, it's like trying to memorize a string of 30 digits. Then try recalling it perfectly mid-fight, while other mechanics are going on.

The huge majority of abilities are cooldowns as well, which means two things;
1) Everything gets nuts when it's time to blow everything at once.
2) You have very little to do the rest of the time.

BRD has a very low skill floor. MCH, by comparison, has a higher skill floor.

BRD is relatively simple to play, but you do have a bit of juggling in terms of things you're looking out for (e.g., procs, songs, when to use your utility skills). While I don't know too much about MCH because I don't particularly like the job, I do know that, if you want to optimize, high latency works against you with MCH.

If you are wanting to optimize the jobs for higher-end content, both have high skill ceilings in order to play them well. But for casual play, BRD would be the easier of the two to learn.

I've to agree the main issue with the MCH is all the QoL improvements we never got: abilities and GCD are clipping way too much, latency is more punitive than in NIN, any failure in rota (or Quick Reload + Attack at 95 Heat but the QR won't work because clipping) and you're done.
Btw, the Flamethrower is a little buggy, I mean sometime you'll tick, sometime not, and just on time, I've passed frm 85 to 95, which it isn't possible x)

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Originally Posted by Gr1mwolf

It's straight up bad, to the point that playing it feels like work; I actually dread having to run duties and fight with it.

The gameplay is wildly complicated, but not for any of the right reasons. It feels like all the abilities are random and unrelated, but you happen to have Wildfire, so the only overarching logic around the gameplay becomes "Do as much as possible inside Wildfire".

The result is an insane rotation meant to get the most from a sea of chaos, that could only be discovered after incredible amounts of trial and error, parses and math. Without a cohesive flow to anything, it's like trying to memorize a string of 30 digits. Then try recalling it perfectly mid-fight, while other mechanics are going on.

The huge majority of abilities are cooldowns as well, which means two things;
1) Everything gets nuts when it's time to blow everything at once.
2) You have very little to do the rest of the time.

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uh thx for this sum :3

I started back in the days with my ARR brd and its still one of my main 2nds but I always wonder whats mch all about nowadays. I haven't played mch much - only leveled it with dailys just for the sake of max lvl at hw and never touched it again. but I read all the threads about mchs since sb and couldn't figure out what it was all about : /

thx to you now I can at least guess :p

In my opinion MCH feels more clunky compared to BRD also I believe BRD to be easier compared to MCH. Aestheticly speaking MCH is more appealing to me but that's just me.

I'll admit it's hard try to explain it, as it's largely just muscle memory for me now, but I wanted to try and offer what I could.

First, it's important to know that with this new heat system replacing the "casting" of using Gauss Barrel (level 52) from Heavensward, what existed before Stormblood is now entirely different, and the job only really works sensibly at level 70 now, which is really bad for getting people into it. Most of your GCD weaponskills build heat, and your oGCDs either don't, or are used to manage it. Ammo, on top of ensuring procs and increasing potency of the next shot of the main 3, stops heat generation on the next shot. While they're not quite the same, think of and use Hot Shot like you would Straight Shot. That's your "always keep this up for more damage" skill.

For convenience sake: Split Shot = 1, Slug Shot = 2, Clean Shot = 3

1 procs 2 procs 3, and they don't have to be done sequentially. If you want to proc a Clean Shot, use Quick Reload>2. Using Reload ensures the next 3 shots will proc each other. One of the old techniques that still has some application is "stacking" your procs by using Reload, then firing in this order: 1-2-1. Following that, firing in the order 3-2-3 gives you a chance for the 2 to proc another 3. You can also force the proc with your Quick Reload. So, just remember 1-2-1-3-2-3 for later.

Now then, MCH has always been a weave-heavy job, if you want to get the most out of it. This is where I would direct you to the many rotation guides posted for it, if only for the raw basic order of things, but weaving oGCDs helps you maximize damage, and Ammo usage doubles now as both heat and proc management. All this goes into preparing to utilize your Wildfire (WF), which is the central damage mechanic of the job. May seem annoyingly strict, but MCH is and always has been a burst DPS and Wildfire is that burst. The idea is to work your way up to nearly Overheating (90-95 is the sweet spot), use Reload to set your procs, then push into Overheat (your own personal +20% damage increase for 10 sec.) and use Wildfire. Keep in mind, the 1-2-1 part of the shot order I mentioned earlier is part of the WF prep, with the 3-2-3 with weaved oGCDs being part of it. Again, please look into the many guides out there; I say this because while I largely follow them myself, I have my own slight deviation I use that just works for me.

Now the bad news: It IS possible to really screw up heat management and misalign cooldowns, and it feels really bad when that happens. Most of the big cooldowns are on 60 sec timers (which makes them align with Wildfire well), and Hypercharge - your biggest party utility - is 120 sec, so you can and should use it for every other Wildfire. At 70, good use of Ammo, heat management, cooldowns and Overheat Wildfire (OHWF) cycles can make for a very smooth, clockwork-like rotation, where everything you need comes up right when you need it, but it IS possible to mess up and misalign. Death can be costly for a MCH.

More than reading this, however, I say experience is the best teacher. If you're interested in trying the job, go for it. It's not as complex as others make it sound, and it's easier now than it was before, but it does take some focus and understanding of your kit to fully make the most of it. Don't let the seeming complexity of it scare you away. It's not a perfect job, but it's quite enjoyable when you do it right. And seeing higher and higher Wildfire numbers always feels good.

Also don't forget: to be a good MCH is rewarding. You have a good dps, good utilities, and if you can play your job well, it's fun (I find the job fun when my ping is good for exemple x) )

Personally, I prefer MCH to BRD. That said, neither character has BRD to 70 while both have MCH at 70 so I'm biased. There's some comfort in not having your damage tied so intricately to RNG (don't get me wrong, MCH has RNG but it's not nearly so bad as "needs crits to get its real damage out" bad, and can be heavily mitigated). That said, the terrible thing about both is how gimped they are sans DRG.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Personally, I prefer MCH to BRD. That said, neither character has BRD to 70 while both have MCH at 70 so I'm biased. There's some comfort in not having your damage tied so intricately to RNG (don't get me wrong, MCH has RNG but it's not nearly so bad as "needs crits to get its real damage out" bad, and can be heavily mitigated). That said, the terrible thing about both is how gimped they are sans DRG.

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The RNG in MCH is more tick server or latency ;) Or clipping, and I know from people of my FC that if they don't play MCH, it's mostly because of that.
I don't understand why SE don't throw the DRG's buff for MCH and BRD, is just horrible to know how many you lose without a DRG.

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

The RNG in MCH is more tick server or latency ;) Or clipping, and I know from people of my FC that if they don't play MCH, it's mostly because of that.
I don't understand why SE don't throw the DRG's buff for MCH and BRD, is just horrible to know how many you lose without a DRG.

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Being so dependent on the server's performance and my connection to it does suck, yeah xwx There are high-latency rotations for the job, but end of the day you still need to fit a good number of attacks into a 10 second window that makes or breaks you for that minute lol.

Also being a DRGless MCH in my group makes me frequently cry.

Yeah, I feel you on the no DRG thing.

While I never particularly cared about my parses in my static, I care even less knowing that it's naturally going to be lower than it could be due to lack of a DRG. Besides, most times I readily prioritize the party over my own numbers as need be.

MCH is a terribly designed job in my opinion, whereas Bard's toolkit actually feels like it makes sense. BRD can be a bit overwhelming because you have a LOT of things to keep track of at once, but it's not severely punishing if you mess up, there's always something going on and something to keep track of without feeling like you're being pigeonholed. MCH has a toolkit that revolves entirely around doing nothing until you hit your burst window and everything goes to hell, its DPS can be pretty significantly influenced by factors beyond your control like server latency, and honestly just feels like a total mess to play.

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

MCH has a toolkit that revolves entirely around doing nothing until you hit your burst window

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Nothing: Prepping for your burst by building heat while DPSing, then at the threshold, properly using your tools to set up procs in order to give yourself the best arrangement for a strong burst.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Nothing: Prepping for your burst by building heat while DPSing, then at the threshold, properly using your tools to set up procs in order to give yourself the best arrangement for a strong burst.

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Heat builds automatically while using 123, and "prepping procs" is technically part of the once-per-minute Wildfire rotation, which involves using like 2-3 abilities before blowing cooldowns.
Your opinion that MCH is fine is definitely a minority one, and I don't think you're helping anyone by saying they'll enjoy playing it.

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Originally Posted by Gr1mwolf

Heat builds automatically while using 123, and "prepping procs" is technically part of the once-per-minute Wildfire rotation, which involves using like 2-3 abilities before blowing cooldowns.
Your opinion that MCH is fine is definitely a minority one, and I don't think you're helping anyone by saying they'll enjoy playing it.

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Heat builds up naturally, yes, but there's nuance. When you're finally to the point where you're ready to wildfire, do you immediately flamethrower to get into it, or use Cooldown to hold it off for a GCD? Do you want to push it back to better line up with an off-cycle TA that is liable to happen in 7s and 8s?

That 50 seconds between wildfires is frought with strategy and choice in how and when you're going to wildfire, and gives plenty of time to activate resources like mana song, tp song, palisade, and dismantle. I personally never feel the downtime, because I use the downtime to plan what I'll be doing in coming mechanics, where to stand, how many ticks of flamethrower I'll need, and how best to line up with the next trick. Not to mention supporting the party however I can.

Could the job be designed better? Sure, it definitely could. I'd love if I had a method of firing bullets without using ammo to preserve my bullet could for a burst and keep the reload CDs cycling. It'd also be nice if DRG wasn't mandatory. But the job is very rewarding when played correctly, seeing a 20k+ wildfire pop off in the middle of the fight feels amazing because it feels earned.

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Originally Posted by Gr1mwolf

Heat builds automatically while using 123, and "prepping procs" is technically part of the once-per-minute Wildfire rotation, which involves using like 2-3 abilities before blowing cooldowns.
Your opinion that MCH is fine is definitely a minority one, and I don't think you're helping anyone by saying they'll enjoy playing it.

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Not only did I not say that, I actually use my Reload twice per minute. Helps with the timing of the clockwork. But go ahead and generalize it. Surely that's a more effective answer to the question than the more detailed descriptions I've given.

Could be if you're "doing nothing until your burst window" or just building heat automatically via 123, maybe that's why it doesn't seem so enjoyable?

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

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I love both of your views on machinist. I'm currently leveling machinist and even though I know it not the most popular job or the easiest to play I enjoy it and I think that's why I enjoy it. I also owe a thanks to you ThirdChild_ZKI for that 121323 rotation because it makes so much sense for maximizing dps.

thank you all for your insight

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Originally Posted by MedSurgNursing

thank you all for your insight

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Glad I could help in some way ^u^

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Originally Posted by AvenoMatt

I love both of your views on machinist. I'm currently leveling machinist and even though I know it not the most popular job or the easiest to play I enjoy it and I think that's why I enjoy it. I also owe a thanks to you ThirdChild_ZKI for that 121323 rotation because it makes so much sense for maximizing dps.

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Let's not forget the absolutely sick goggles the AF1 MCH goggles MCH gets.
edit: God was I half asleep or something? Goggles...goggles...MCH goggles MCH... XD

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

You know, it's been REALLY hard to want to replace my goggles. I haven't seen any Aiming head gear yet that made me want to wear it instead of my goggles :)

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I was expecting AF2 goggles to be even half as cool, but was sorely disappointed. They don't even /visor!

You know, it's been REALLY hard to want to replace my goggles. I haven't seen any Aiming head gear yet that made me want to wear it instead of my goggles :)

Agree with most of what had been discussed in the thread in regards to MCH. I personally prefer MCH because of the aesthetics and in terms of gameplay I have fewer things to manage compared to BRD.

The biggest issue and pain is when you get latency issues/spikes during wildfire. It is a severe punishment besides the occasional clipping as mentioned by others. And I'm also one of the mch that struggles to recover once I die once.

I have yet to play Bard in 4.0 but I did love it in 3.0. I used BLM as my main so playing as a BRD was a nice change of pace. I only got MCH to level 35 as I couldn't get into it.

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Originally Posted by Gaj85

I only got MCH to level 35 as I couldn't get into it.

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I felt similarly. I think I got to level 32 or 33 before dropping it until basically a few months ago when I got around to checking it out. I ended up enjoying it a lot more than I originally thought I would, it just takes a bit to get enough abilities to make it interesting. A nice thing about MCH is you have the core rotation around lv38 and it doesn't change too much as you go, just more oGCDs to squeeze in to Wildfire windows and a few other abilities for managing heat gauge post 60.

Both suck late game (Starting around 50 and on) at DPS. Not meta talk, just purely on a "fun"/fight standpoint...they both feel very weak, unless you're geared out the wazoo. I made a Summoner my first go, and I found myself just clearing waves without much Ironworks and or other bought gear. Which makes sense of course, its the Warlock of FF, but even the Black Mage feels like a howitzer compared to....well two actual howitzer classes in the game.

Bard feels like it requires a pet and or a solid aura buff. And Machinist feels like it needs a stronger pet in general. I love the idea of the Machinist, I just hate the implementation, especially late game. With all that considered...go Bard, not only will you be buffing your teammates, but also debuffing the enemy. Also who doesn't like a nice tune while slaughtering your enemies?

BRD is more in demand for party if you going for endgame stuff. for casual, either class is fine. i say BRD for easier play style because personally i found MCH right now is still "janky" but, BRD playstyle is very busy at least for me, while MCH is much more lenient compare to BRD.

and i still hate the MCH shoot animation and sound when the heat is above 50 ugh

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Originally Posted by SavageCipher

Both suck late game (Starting around 50 and on) at DPS. Not meta talk, just purely on a "fun"/fight standpoint...they both feel very weak, unless you're geared out the wazoo. I made a Summoner my first go, and I found myself just clearing waves without much Ironworks and or other bought gear. Which makes sense of course, its the Warlock of FF, but even the Black Mage feels like a howitzer compared to....well two actual howitzer classes in the game.

Bard feels like it requires a pet and or a solid aura buff. And Machinist feels like it needs a stronger pet in general. I love the idea of the Machinist, I just hate the implementation, especially late game. With all that considered...go Bard, not only will you be buffing your teammates, but also debuffing the enemy. Also who doesn't like a nice tune while slaughtering your enemies?

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Hum, MCH is just the 3rd dps now. And BRD is not so low on dps...

We haven’t talked much about BRD yet... I swap between BRD & MCH fairly frequently, though I prefer the latter because it’s more challenging, but dependent on my skill.

Bard, a lot of the time, feels like playing whack-a-mole with the various procs you’re looking out for. It’s fun and encourages a bit more party cooperation than MCH, but there’s nothing quite like doing everything right and The 12 denying crits on your dots. People complain about machinist having a lot of RNG, but for me, it’s bard.

As much as I like how MCH look, I personally think I'm going to wait until 5.0 since I -really- don't like how they play. It's a bit too tedious to maximize their damage and I'm not a huge fan of focusing all my CDs on one ability nearly. Too much work to do it EVERY fight. There might be people who love complex classes (at least, there's a lot of people on the forums who says they do but they don't speak for most of the players), but if you look at it, a lot of people love playing RDM (maybe close to one of the most played classes. At least, probably would be the most played if it was actually good. I think one of the reasons they dont want to buff RDM is so that they would have less people playing RDM's. Same with Samurais. At least, that's what I remember hearing someone mention) and it's one of the easiest classes out there with MCH as the least played class. It isn't just down to style or else I'd easily play MCH over BRD. BRD is my secondary class.

In my personal opinion it up to how you feel fits you the most.

Bard is currently one of the most played Jobs in the game due to being one of the most simplest job to play. MCH is considered the lowest popular played Job, if not the least played Job in the community as a whole, due to how demanding it can be to keep track on both your skill bar and events happening on the screen.

For me MCH seems to be the only Job that keeps making me come back to when playing max level contents since I enjoy it more. The other current jobs are just not making me feel it when it comes to their gameplay. Maybe I may find some new Job to use for endgame in 5.0 assuming they are decent enough to pull my attention away from MCH or maybe I am stuck with MCh for the rest of FF14 life.

As others have said, Bard is more simplistic than Machinist with a much lower skill floor than Machinist (it’s easier to be an ok Bard than an ok Machinist).
It’s worth considering that Machinist is more dps oriented, while Bard is more utility oriented.

Bard is much more popular because of its simplicity as well as the fact that the extra utility it provides is very useful, and it’s dps capabilities still allow it to keep up with the rest of party’s dps. There are definitely less drawbacks to being a Bard, hence why it’s probably the most popular job in the game right now. As far as I’m aware Machinist does deal more damage than Bard, but it’s harder to excel as a Machinist than it is as a Bard.


All things considered though, from my experience they both ultimately provide the same thing beyond the differences mentioned above; they both have a damage up ability, they both have a party defense cooldown and obviously they share role abilities.

Bard is also very in-demand for raiding, whereas there’s still a bit of a stigma attached to Machinist because of its difficulty. Bard isn’t held back by complex dps mechanics, having to manage pets or gauges, has no cast times and no ‘gauss barrel’ like mechanics besides pressing songs every 30 or so seconds. Bard is only ever going to get stronger, so it’s definitely the ‘safer’ option

The best way to know for sure is to try both and see which one you feel is best yourself.

I have no idea what MCH is like but I've been slowly levelling BRD.

Frankly, coming from BLM DPS perspective, BRD feels more like fighting fire than other classes. Trying to track several cooldowns at once and smash them as soon as they are needed (bloodletter, empyreal, raging, barrage, Pitch perfect if you're in wanderer's, Iron Jaws to keep the Dot's going, Straight Shot buff, Sidewinder)

I am not thrilled with the implementation of the songs. They only make the fire fighting situation worse in two of the three. Furthermore, I just picked up Troubadour and I am having trouble seeing how you can be expected to work this into boss fights without EXTREME forward planning... like knowing exactly what song order to do right from the start of the fight such that you're in the correct song at the correct times.

The songs can be rotated 1 at a time in a cycle of 3, but their cooldowns make it so that once you've decided upon an order, you are fixed into that order for the rest of the fight unless you want to spend a period of the fight with no song up. That means you have to time boss abilities to activate while you are in the song that causes troubadour to give resistance to that ability's damage type.

Honestly I haven't tried max level bard but so far it is extremely chaotic and convoluted. I can see why people think it's "simple" but at the same time It doesn't seem to be. BLM feels a lot more tight and satisfying to me. I feel like the songs could use some heavy reworking. You don't really get much choice with them. They are not empowering you. They are simply forcing you to constantly play 1 of 3 mini-games while trying to pay attention to several other cooldowns.

I've been told tactician gets better in raids, but so far in dungeons it is seemingly useless on most other party members. Only Warriors, Bards (myself) and Paladins to a lesser extent seem to even use TP enough. Obviously both BRD and MCH have Tactician so I guess it's not really part of the discussion, but It was just to add to my current BRD rant.

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Originally Posted by Rathael

BRD rant.

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I agree with you, in regards to what you've stated about bard. There's just plenty of things to track, way more than of a Machinist in my opinion.

As for the role skill tactician. Its great and mostly used as tp restore for progression and/or enmity halving/dump since refresh is priceless for healers.

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Originally Posted by Rathael

I've been told tactician gets better in raids, but so far in dungeons it is seemingly useless on most other party members. Only Warriors, Bards (myself) and Paladins to a lesser extent seem to even use TP enough. Obviously both BRD and MCH have Tactician so I guess it's not really part of the discussion, but It was just to add to my current BRD rant.

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If a TP user doesn't need TP during an AoE pull, they're not AoEing enough. MNK, DRG, NIN, SAM, BRD, MCH and BRD all will burn clean through their TP pools on AoE without good use of tactician and invigorate. I bring this up specifically in response to "tactician is better in raids", where the case can be made that yes, if a physical dps dies its useful, but no, it sees a lot more and better use in dungeons on big pulls.

i main both mch and brd the first brd is easy to get a rotation going and use party buffs and dots on targeted boss and the abiltie to avoiding traps is good over all i like this job as for mch the turret is a big help rotation is decent and dots and cross over skills help a lot to help keep up with the party over all a decent job to party with the higher i get in level the better the gear and weapons are for my jobs so yes try out each job and find what you liketo stay with.