4.2 Palladin - more to play as dps than ever ? Why say it's tank then...

I'm curious, from patch 4.2 in every pug i join as palladin i'm being the offtank now and never the main tank.

With the new first 3 sigma's i'm doing 99% a dps role rather than tank. To be more precise, in the train i play all time dps.

On the second boss the demon i have nothing to tank, i just move to specific places 4-5 times during fight and press my defensive cds...all the other time i just dps.

Third boss, at the current state, again i'm dpsing most of the time, but at least i have some adds to tank! Even though this is a more demanding DPS race from previous 2 so everyone is asking for more dps !!! More than previous 2 bosses.

And if i'm correct the palladin does less dps than the Warrior by far. So i'm wondering if my job is now mainly a DPS spec, why bother playing a tank with low dps than choose a pure dps spec?

I'm adapting to the new role requirements and try to get the new playstyle, but am I correct is what i understand correct or i'm seeing things wrong ?

This is nothing new. The meta for tanks has been dps first since HW at least.

You "tank" the damage by doing ST mechanic, you can shield your party, you can cover your ally. It's tank to me.

And in Sigma 2.0, you are tanking woman ghost as ST.

Your answers are more like 'passive tanking' rather than active tanking like before. But i understand this is normal for this game, so I have to adapt. Thank you guys fo ryoru answers.

Pld is best as an offtank. Pld loses the most dps by pulling, since you need to spend a gcd to switch stances, and you also delay your dps rotation by having to rage of halone. A war only has to use unchained+equilibrium, and a drk only has to use a single powerslash combo, which doesn't affect their dps rotation at all.

You tank by providing the party with shields, cover, and intervention. You also tank by doing as much dps as you can-this is part of tanking in ff xiv. You should also be coordinating swaps with your co tank in order to maximize effectiveness of cds.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Pld is best as an offtank. Pld loses the most dps by pulling, since you need to spend a gcd to switch stances, and you also delay your dps rotation by having to rage of halone. A war only has to use unchained+equilibrium, and a drk only has to use a single powerslas combo, which doesn't affect their dps rotation at all.

You tank by providing the party with shields, cover, and intervention. You also tank by doing as much dps as you can-this is part of tanking in ff xiv. You should also be coordinating swaps with your co tank in order to maximize effectiveness of cds.

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Exactly this. And you also may want to do some tank swaps to help your MT when he is out of mitigations or to do a specific mechanic in the fight. I really do think that in this raid tier both MT and OT roles have almost the same difficulty and impact in the fights.

I alway thought pld was the MT thats the only reason why i started playing Pld...i didnt know pld was OT/DPS...i didnt know war was MT in this game...guess a little residue of FF11 meta of PLD (MT) still in me...guess ill pick up war and relearn myself

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Originally Posted by urban

I alway thought pld was the MT thats the only reason why i started playing Pld...i didnt know pld was OT/DPS...i didnt know war was MT in this game...guess a little residue of FF11 meta of PLD (MT) still in me...guess ill pick up war and relearn myself

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The idea of MT and OT only really go as far as "the mt is the one currently tanking the boss". Otherwise tanks should be swapping periodically throughout the fight in order to make the most out of their cd pools. War/drk should be pulling the boss, and then swap as needed.

Sword oath racks up so much damage over time. The longer the fight, the more it shines. Why wouldn't you want to offtank with a pally?

This tier OT are given a bit of tank esque mechanics, and especially O6 you're basically already MT. You don't particularly have to OT but you absolutely must not pull or enter tank stance(unless progging or healers obviously struggling, or if you're just new at a particular fight). Just have DRK or WAR pull and voke it off them 30 seconds in and have them shirk you. PLD tank stance is very bad unless you absolutely NEED that extra mitigation. Even as OT, intervention exists and should be used.

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Originally Posted by Simos

Your answers are more like 'passive tanking' rather than active tanking like before. But i understand this is normal for this game, so I have to adapt. Thank you guys fo ryoru answers.

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As PLD on v5s and v6s at least, I'm finding that I use Intervention on the MT quite a bit. Tank busters in both fights hurt quite a lot, so a timely Intervention goes a long way. It's not really that different from hitting Sheltron for yourself instead.

The only thing that PLD loses as MT, is covering the other tank. (And loses shield swipe as OT when not covering, which is a loss in DPS and threat, but WAR loses out on Vengeance counter attack potency. DRK of course loses nothing in the OT spot.)

Even if you were to MT as PLD, you would still have the WAR open, for maximum threat, and then voke off them, and continue on in Sword Oath.
(WAR starting in Defiance, unchains, to remove damage penalty, tomahawks, and equilibriums, going into eye combo for DPS, Thrill of battle to increase max HP, DPS stance, and DPS away. They could use an inner beast if they want to start out with, so they can upheaval with thrill/defiance, or onslaught for the massive threat jump, then FC the rest of the IR window. Either way, they will use IR/Onslaught for DPS, and Onslaught for gap closing, which is like a shield lob every so often.)

Which btw, MTing as PLD is fine in O5S.
In O6S, the MT takes more Tank Busters, and the OT takes more auto attack dmg.
PLD handles auto attack damage (even more so magical than WAR, and more so than DRK) better, so you would want the PLD as OT, and so they can soak the tornados with Hallowed Ground, and help mitigate with Cover. (Which again, works best as OT) But DRK handles the TBs better than PLD. (and can be equal to WAR if WAR is willing to sacrifice some DPS, otherwise its practically the same as PLD due to being magical TBs)
You wouldnt need to tank swap with cover, that alone saves them from a TB, giving them just enough time to get a mitigation off CD.

In O7S, I feel PLD is a better MT than DRK, also partly because of the adds, and the amounts of physical dmg.
(Though WAR and PLD can be interchangeable there just fine, WAR would have the best snap aggro for adds.)

Some people are saying DRK is better for threat, but part of me thinks they dont really play DRK, as its the lowest in total threat. And its "snap" threat comes at too great a cost to DPS, so I disagree with DRKs being the better opener over PLD. (Then again, our PLD never really used Rage of Halone, until our DPS out geared them, then they had to do a round of RoH, where as DRK always had to do it, due to a lack of any real burst options. Though maybe 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 pulls, the BRDs inability to use diversion and lucky crits, lead to the BRD dying at the start, which we rest and went on like nothing happened, until the rest of the DPS were more geared than the PLD, to which like I said, he had to use RoH for a short bit)

But as a word of advice as a PLD OT.
Use cover to help the MT keep CDs ready, plan it out, so you take a TB with it, unless someone needs it to avoid falling off in O5S, or to help a caster survive bleed/pushback dmg in O7S.
Focus on using your shields/reprisal to lower damage the raid takes, and the MT will focus on lowering dmg on themselves.
You keep the party healthy as OT. You still have things to mitigate rather often.

The only reason you would ever be Ot as PLD, is because a DPS WAR WILL out threat you, even if lower in gear level.
They pop threat moves more often than you, and if they arent shirking you, will surpass you.
Dont worry about DRKs, they cant ever catch up to you, 100% impossible, unless you're doing something HORRIBLY wrong. (None of their DPS moves have threat attached like you do.)

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

a drk only has to use a single powerslash combo, which doesn't affect their dps rotation at all.

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DRK using power slash combo is losing out on almost 2 GCDs worth of damage... thats like switching to sword oath twice... (Unless you mean DA+PS, then thats 3 GCDs worth of dmg, for the threat of a hard slash in grit added.)

EDIT: There's some issues with PLDs or DRKs starting as the opening MT and not using threat combos, pretty much requires DPS who offer raid utility, as they usually generate less threat, and with a NIN, offers threat control, and not jobs like BLM or SAM, who just pump out crazy numbers. More so SAM, as they only have diversion, and even with voke/shirk, the best SAM can easily catch a pure DPS WAR, with diversion on CD, if they make the smallest mistake. You'll have to adjust based on each party, which is why its better to have a raid group, rather than doing pugs.

EDIT #2: DRK has always been the worst threat generator of the 3 tanks, when maximizing DPS. In HW, it was considered 100% required to have a NIN, in order to allow DRK to MT and hold hate, while doing more DPS than a PLD.
If you did not have a NIN, and the DRK had to use power slash multiple times, to make up for it, a PLD would do more DPS than a DRK, and you're better off with a PLD, and no one wanted PLD either. (except A12S, as it was harder to survive the TBs)
In 4.0, all tanks generate more threat, and shirk allows for more DPS uptime, less threat combos. But WAR and PLD are still unique in that their maximum DPS rotations require they use actions with threat, and DRK doesnt.
Even though PLD and WAR use different resources now, making the argument DRK lost resources to use threat, still stand, because DRK now loses 2 resources.
The best DRK will do almost the same DPS as a PLD or a DRK, but at the cost of less threat. But most DRKs will do slightly lesser DPS than a PLD or Tank, as they also have to sacrifice DPS for mitigation. (unless they do the bare minimum, and lose no DPS, but then have less mitigation than the other tanks)

DRK is all about sacrificing Threat, DPS, or Mitigation, to try and equal the other tanks. But it's unable to do 2 of them equally. Only one. (Technically it can out threat a PLD if it spamed DA+powerslash, but equal a WAR, and of course do no DPS. It can mitigate almost as much damage as a PLD if it used TBN every time its up, rather than on TBs, knowing when it will break, of course, losing DPS, so on, so forth.)
DRKs only saving grace, is that is takes a tiny bit less damage from magical tank busters through a long fight, but a lot more dmg from cleaves/auto attacks the rest of that same fight.

Yeah....why....I m ok to be an average damage tank....

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Originally Posted by urban

I alway thought pld was the MT thats the only reason why i started playing Pld...i didnt know pld was OT/DPS...i didnt know war was MT in this game...guess a little residue of FF11 meta of PLD (MT) still in me...guess ill pick up war and relearn myself

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It used to be like this, but its no longer the case for reasons already stated in this thread. In order to maximize the damage of both tanks, PLD is best in the OT role. Surely you can still MT if you want to but its not optimal damage wise.

PLD does lose the most when pulling. Halone Combo does significantly less damage than RA(120 potency), where Power Slash combo does 20 less potency, plus 70 bc half a DA of MP, and another 140 potency if you use DA PS instead of normal. But it also delays when PLD puts up its DOT by 3 tics for another 180 potency, as well as the actual oath swapping so another 160 to 380 depending on what GCD you end on in the fight. And on top of all of that you delay your FoF or Req by 4 GCDs where BW is popped at the same time no matter what.

So DRK loses 230 potency and PLD loses 460 to
700 just based off raw potency, not including what raid buffs are missed due to PLD delaying its opener.

So how do you get aggro from a add on sword oath ? EG> octupus appears or dalalumas ... how can u get good hate in sword oath so you dont lose dps ?

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

PLD does lose the most when pulling. Halone Combo does significantly less damage than RA(120 potency), where Power Slash combo does 20 less potency, plus 70 bc half a DA of MP, and another 140 potency if you use DA PS instead of normal. But it also delays when PLD puts up its DOT by 3 tics for another 180 potency, as well as the actual oath swapping so another 160 to 380 depending on what GCD you end on in the fight. And on top of all of that you delay your FoF or Req by 4 GCDs where BW is popped at the same time no matter what.

So DRK loses 230 potency and PLD loses 460 to
700 just based off raw potency, not including what raid buffs are missed due to PLD delaying its opener.

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PLD has more burst than DRK, so if the fight has downtime, PLD easily catches back up, along with having a possible shield swipe proc, which can be popped at the very start. Not starting the fight with PLD means they dont put shield swipe on CD. (Thats also extra threat, and also why PLD doesnt have to use rage of halone in every group comp. and in any comp u have a DRK trying to MT, u want a NIN, so if ur gonna have a NIN, PLD doesnt need to do a RoH combo.)
You cant mention pushing GCDs back on PLD w/o mentioning pushing back CDs on DRK, including Blood Weapon, which cant be done in tank stance. This also includes holding off on CnS, Salted Earth, Plundge, unless of course u want them done under the effect of grit instead.

The threat gain of DRKs opener is barely better than PLD, and is quickly surpassed by the DPS in a short time, where as a PLD continues to gain more threat as time goes on, including higher DPS in fights with downtime.
But of course, calculate a swipe at the start from bulwark, and thats extra threat/100 potency.
You can literally hold hate from swipe+lob alone, u dont need to RoH...
IDK why RoH is even being brought up.

If you're having trouble with threat, then something else is wrong, or you got unlucky with group composition somehow. (such as not having a WAR to open with)

Remember, DRKs equal a PLD on dummies, but are surpassed by PLDs in DPS on actual fights.
Which only happens because of little things adding up, such as down time.

Of course, the amount of difference this all makes is pretty small and trivial, but in the end, the "effective" threat gain and or DPS gain/loss is going to be minimal either way, when talking about an opener, in comparison to the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by Simos

So how do you get aggro from a add on sword oath ? EG> octupus appears or dalalumas ... how can u get good hate in sword oath so you dont lose dps ?

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Pretty much the same as all the tanks who have to snap aggro. (Not that Im suggesting u be in sword oath for that.) If anything, thats an argument as to why PLD would be better off MT for O7S, since that would minimize stance dancing.

Pretty much all our tanks have had to use a threat combo out of stance, or a ranged in stance, to grab adds in savage content.

OT or MT doesn't matter. The Rotation will still be the same.

A PLD just don't pull, the Rest is up the Group and their Strat.

Yup, I wish people would just stop the MT / OT role, they are both tanks, in a DPS orientated game. So as many have said you can do it either way up to the group itself. But if you think about it yourself you can understand why a WAR pulls, their threat modifier is higher than a PLD, plus he does not take any penalty while in his Tank stance when he pops unchained. He can then swap to deliverance and spam his FC. It is never a must, it is just the meta mindset which EU/NA are obsessed about, if you want to start, then start just discuss it with your group and decide how you wish to-do the current raid turn etc. It's simple really.

Im just wondering ppl who make threads like this do they even do savage...this is how this game works every class needs to dps...the best combo in the world is a tank in tank stance trying hard to dps lol with a zero dps healer cuz im just here to heal thats my JOB <3

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Originally Posted by gizmo355gdas

Im just wondering ppl who make threads like this do they even do savage...this is how this game works every class needs to dps...the best combo in the world is a tank in tank stance trying hard to dps lol with a zero dps healer cuz im just here to heal thats my JOB <3

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Because you have the word tank, not dps tank as your job, so the assumption is that I am a tank I do low dps, but I got good defensive abilities that the other jobs don't have. This really stems from other games I would guess. FFXIV tanks are more of a dps with tank abilities if you want to look at it like that. But that is also a mindset of NA/EU, from what I have read the JPN community tank stays in tank stance if he is on the boss, they don't swap out to dps stance and dps, that happens on EU mainly. I can't remember which twitch streamer I was watching when that comment came up tbh!

and this is why 90% of ppl who do raids cant meat the dps check and are stuck on 1st or maybe at most 2nd turn cuz no one cares abouth dungeons or primals plus thats how this game works and its fun when u can do more then just tank or heal.. plus if ppl want to stay in tank stance 24/7 well then u need to find a healer and 2 dps and do some RP go to a dungeon and make it hapen

Tank stance out of Progress? what a joke...

If you play tank, you have the next responsibilities:
1-> Keep agro from boss if you are tanking it.
2-> Use defensive CDs (Like Vengeance, Sentinel, Rampart, Shadow Wall...) for Tank Busters.
3-> Tank swap if you have to (using Shirk).

so, if you are tanking, and your agro level is ok, you have CDs for the next Tank Buster, what can you do?
--Spam agro combo? WHY??? you have enough agro, you dont need more.
--Tank stance? WHY??? you won't die because auto attacks (If you die because Auto Attacks, you need more heals)
--Maybe you could make use of your DPS COMBO !!!! it'll help more than agro combo and more than tank stance...

You are a tank because you have Tank's responsibilities, but that doesn't mean you have to spam agro combo or keep on tank stance forever, it makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Simos

So how do you get aggro from a add on sword oath ? EG> octupus appears or dalalumas ... how can u get good hate in sword oath so you dont lose dps ?

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Personally i use 1 rage of halone combo in sword oarth and thats usually enough. But by all means if it's not for you, switch to shield oarth till you establish aggro then swap back into sword.

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Originally Posted by Simos

So how do you get aggro from a add on sword oath ? EG> octupus appears or dalalumas ... how can u get good hate in sword oath so you dont lose dps ?

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Ask for Shadewalker (ninja), if shadewalker is on CD, you can just Rage of Halone combo in sword oath and ask for Diversion on your DPSs if they can, if they dont have Diversion maybe you'll need 2 Rage of Halone combo, but you should try with just 1 Rage of Halone combo, then check what is your agro lvl.

I'm a Warrior and I like tanking because it helps me learn more about what to expect from the boss and the fight itself. But if the other player wants to tank, be it a Paladin or a Dark Knight, I don't mind. I can focus more on damage and picking up other stuff that appears. Just talk to the other tank and let them know you want to tank. It doesn't matter if it's not the "optimal". If someone says it's a DPS loss for a Paladin to pull, literally tell them to STFU because the DPS loss is so ridiculously small and insignificant.

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DRK using power slash combo is losing out on almost 2 GCDs worth of damage... thats like switching to sword oath twice... (Unless you mean DA+PS, then thats 3 GCDs worth of dmg, for the threat of a hard slash in grit added.)

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Notice that I said "dps rotation" and not "dps". As a pld if you pull, not only can you not apply goring blade immediately, but you have to offset your dps rotation by 4 gcds, meaning that you miss out on raid buffs when it matters for pld. As a drk, you can still make the most of raid buffs if you have to pull-you can still da+c&s under trick, and get 3 other da'd attacks+plunge under trick, litany, chain, etc.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Notice that I said "dps rotation" and not "dps". As a pld if you pull, not only can you not apply goring blade immediately, but you have to offset your dps rotation by 4 gcds, meaning that you miss out on raid buffs when it matters for pld. As a drk, you can still make the most of raid buffs if you have to pull-you can still da+c&s under trick, and get 3 other da'd attacks+plunge under trick, litany, chain, etc.

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I would agree raid buffs make the bigger difference in this situation, as my experiences usually didnt have them or stack them.
(And when I did have them, I wasnt tanking usually to think about its timing in comparison to the tanks.)

OK yeah sure you're missing out on "raid buffs" and PRECIOUS GCDs, but if at the end of the day you STILL don't care about that and just want to be the main tank, just ask! If you hit enrage, I guarantee it won't be because the Paladin or the Dark Knight pulled. Geez!

Also, if you have to pick up something in the middle of the fight, make sure you hit the boss with Fast Blade first, THEN hit the other target with Savage Blade, and ONLY THEN use Rage or Halone. Do not waste Savage Blade on the boss, and then complain you weren't able to hold agro with just Rage of Halone. This goes for tank swaps without Shirk as well.

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

OK yeah sure you're missing out on "raid buffs" and PRECIOUS GCDs, but if at the end of the day you STILL don't care about that and just want to be the main tank, just ask! If you hit enrage, I guarantee it won't be because the Paladin or the Dark Knight pulled. Geez!

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You can do whatever you want in dungeons or trials and I don't care, but if you wanna do savage content and pull the boss then play warrior. Likewise, if you do play warrior, I'm gonna expect you to pull. I've had to tell too many pf warriors how to play their jobs when farming extreme primals.

Like I said earlier, I am a Warrior, and I do like to pull. But if someone else wants to do it, I'm not going to sit there and talk about how that's not the "most optimal strategy", since I don't have a broom up my butt like most of the other people that seem to raid. :)

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Like I said earlier, I am a Warrior, and I do like to pull. But if someone else wants to do it, I'm not going to sit there and talk about how that's not the "most optimal strategy", since I don't have a broom up my butt like most of the other people that seem to raid. :)

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Silly me, caring about things like "playing well" and "dps".

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Silly me, caring about things like "playing well" and "dps".

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Expecting strangers to play as well as a static is a bit much, imo.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Silly me, caring about things like "playing well" and "dps".

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Keep that advice coming, Hruodig. I enjoy tanking as much as I do healing and I'm starting to get that itch again. My tank of choice is paladin. Without your input, I would have never known that it was far better to off tank on the pull.:D

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

Like I said earlier, I am a Warrior, and I do like to pull. But if someone else wants to do it, I'm not going to sit there and talk about how that's not the "most optimal strategy", since I don't have a broom up my butt like most of the other people that seem to raid. :)

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Warriors literally just need to pull in Defiance with Unchained, Equilibrium, switch stance + a Ninja and their burst DPS they gain more from pulling in a raid setting as Pld is punished the most by staying in shield oath and switching back, Drks have less control with emnity as they don't have the tools like War and without a Nin threat creep is quicker over time.

I used to be a Drk main and now i'm a War main and I don't grumble at all when I MT because War is really strong in either role but it excels especially in the beginning pull vs any other tank, hell you can even tank swap Shirk if you don't wanna MT and give all the threat to your co-tanker that's viable too.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

Silly me, caring about things like "playing well" and "dps".

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Right, because pulling with a Paladin or not will determine whether you end up with a 4.1k parse or a 3.5k parse..... OH WAIT NO, IT WON'T! It won't even show at the end of the run. lol Let alone be a factor in whether you hit enrage or not. In other words, it does - not - matter. It's got nothing to do with playing well.

Unless you're trying to argue that if a Paladin ends up pulling, they won't be able to make it to the top, you literally have no arguments left.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Warriors literally just need to pull in Defiance with Unchained

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I know. I always pull whenever I can. But if you read the very first post in this thread, you'll see it's about a Paladin complaining that he never gets to tank. That people keep telling him it's not efficient, that it's "bad". I'm trying to say that none of this matters. That if he wants to tank, just let the Warrior know. I mean, it's not the end of the freakin' world if you have to miss a GCD changing into Sword Stance, OMG!

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

I know. I always pull whenever I can. But if you read the very first post in this thread, you'll see it's about a Paladin complaining that he never gets to tank. That people keep telling him it's not efficient, that it's "bad". I'm trying to say that none of this matters. That if he wants to tank, just let the Warrior know. I mean, it's not the end of the freakin' world if you have to miss a GCD changing into Sword Stance, OMG!

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It's not just a GCD though, its several. You NEED to start out with a rage of halone combo if you pull as a PLD delaying your dps combos past the point where you get all the buffs from other jobs so when you do get around to them they are unbuffed and does less damage, so obviously it matters more than you give it credit for. That said, you are right, in the big picture it doesn't matter nearly as much as some ppl say it does.

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Originally Posted by Thela

It's not just a GCD though, its several. You NEED to start out with a rage of halone combo if you pull as a PLD delaying your dps combos past the point where you get all the buffs from other jobs so when you do get around to them they are unbuffed and does less damage, so obviously it matters more than you give it credit for. That said, you are right, in the big picture it doesn't matter nearly as much as some ppl say it does.

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I believe the point is that in a 10 minute fight, 3 'suboptimal GCDs' (ROH combo), and 1 dead one (Changing back to sword), totaling 10 seconds out of 10 min are not going to have any dramatic impact on hitting enrage, or even your parse. The amount of potency lost for those 4 GCDs (which still do some damage mind you) as a % of the thousands and thousands of potency spit out during a 10 min fight is pretty insignificant.

Theres a lot of exaggeration on how 'bad' it is for a pld to pull. 1 small sup-optimal play is not going to tank your parse or impact your groups overall success by any noticeable margin.

Sure its better for the war to pull, but its a really small thing in the grand scheme. Theres a similar obsession with perfect 'openers'. Yes, these things are great to optimize, but most of your damage in a 10 minute fight is how well you maintain your rotation and maintain uptime. Who pulls is the cherry on top. But the vast majority of your performance is consistently maintaining uptime and your rotation for 10 minutes. Not what your 1st 10 seconds of a fight are.

I mathed it out a bit(unreliably) and its about a low 20-30 max dps loss throughout the fight for PLD. Not accounting for raid buffs, crits, or dhs.