Samurai Buff Speculation

So the recent live letter. Yoshi-p Himself said buffing Monk made them better than samurai and they're probably going to buff.
The question is....are they gonna let us suffer this raid tier? or is the buff coming in 4.25? and what you think the buffs even going to go be?

I'm going to be wishful and hope its in 4.25 but I doubt it.As for what buffs.
I personally think its going to go to shinten,guren and seigan. Basically, all our kenki attacks. Maybe even 25 kenki from Hagakure instead of just 20 each sen as well.

Since SB launch SE been trying to give the skills that are most commonly used wrong or hard to identify when they're worth to use a change over others. Ruin spells, Berserk and some others. I can see Higanbana getting a potency buff to make it more woth to use in more cases since most SAM players you find don't really know it and just use it like any other dot.

I'm gonna be that person and say that the best buff for SAM is deletion :P

It could be simple potency buffs, but I have the suspicion that it could also be done by adjusting Kenki Mastery trait so that the samurai can use Shinten more often, or reducing kenki costs of certain skills to make it so that you can use others more often. The could also increase the damage increase on Jinpu or the further reduce the recast timer on Shifu.

Deletion would be nice... But i think a potency increase oft shinten and higanbana, and a potency decrease of midare will work as well. And it would increase the gap between Samurai played right, and the majority oft Samurai players

What I'd personally like to see:

• Kaiten CD reduced to 2 seconds.

  This will allow it to be used for Midare and then Higanbana with only 1 GCD between as per Meikyou Shisui, offering a bit of flexibility that would otherwise require a very late Hagakure to provide in order to salvage the Meikyou cast at its usual time.

• Animation locks for Hagakure, Meikyou Shisui, Kaiten, and Guren each decreased. They accept queues earlier and more quickly clip in response to them.
• Yaten made more responsive in its displacement as it applies to AoE and other positional checks.
• Shinten potency increased to 320, up from 300. (12.8 ppk)
• Kyuten potency increased to 165, up from 150. (Against 2 targets, superior to Shinten if neither or both of two targets are affected by Slashing Down; inferior if only the main target has Slashing Down.)
• Seigan potency increased to 220, up from 200. (14.67)
• Gyoten potency increased to 110, up from 100. (11)
• Yaten potency increased to 110, up from 100. (11)
• Merciful Eyes self-heal potency increased to 400, up from 200.
• Third Eye CD reduced to 12 seconds, down from 15.
• Yukikaze potency increased to 360, up from 340.
• Ageha now grants a minimum of 20 Kenki, up from 10. Upon killing blow Ageha still grants only 30 Kenki.

Edit: Bonuses reduced slightly. Can now only stand equal during perfect play with perfect BLM play at certain gear loadouts and surrounding compositions, however. Dependence on Seigan faintly reduced compared to suggested version, though Seigan remains as relatively rewarding as current, devalued only by Merciful Eyes now generating enough HP to visibly adjust your health bar.

Tentative:

• Hissatsu: Gyoten may now target allies. In doing so, it will instantly generate a physical damage shield on the allied target equal to 240 attack potency (twice its normal damage dealt).
• Third Eye now reduces damage to be taken by 10%, up from 5%. (Maybe increase duration to 4 seconds, up from 3, since some mechanics snapshot for buffs massively in advance, but still require the buff to be active when the damage is dealt.)
• *Merciful Eyes now heals for 800 potency, but costs 10 Kenki.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[INDENT]snip.

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I think the 2sec reduction is sounds.

I would see some potency boost but not to all the skills you've listed. Unless you have some theorycraft to back up the net final result of all those potency buff, it seems to be a lot and would put SAM too far ahead other dps job and it seems SE doesn't want SAM and BLM to be too far ahead. Like we should be "first" but not by a lot (and definitely not enough to compensate the lack of raid buff).

Unless all these potency would result in a small gain of a few percent, BLM would need another buff to be on par with you and if anything i'm not expecting more than a few % dps buff to basically make SAM on par (if not 1 or 2% at most) higher than BLM.

Regarding the animation lock this is something most job would benefit from.
For instance, making Sharpcast and Swiftcast have shorter if any animation lock would help greatly in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I think the 2sec reduction is sounds.

I would see some potency boost but not to all the skills you've listed. Unless you have some theorycraft to back up the net final result of all those potency buff, it seems to be a lot and would put SAM too far ahead other dps job and it seems SE doesn't want SAM and BLM to be too far ahead. Like we should be "first" but not by a lot (and definitely not enough to compensate the lack of raid buff).

Unless all these potency would result in a small gain of a few percent, BLM would need another buff to be on par with you and if anything i'm not expecting more than a few % dps buff to basically make SAM on par (if not 1 or 2% at most) higher than BLM.

Regarding the animation lock this is something most job would benefit from.
For instance, making Sharpcast and Swiftcast have shorter if any animation lock would help greatly in the long run.

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I'll double check the math shortly. I mainly wanted to illustrate the direction of change intended.

While I don't believe a given job should be capped by anything other than its effective in-composition 8-man food&pot rDPS, and thus find any mention of individual DPS irrelevant outside of how it may act as or in place of a certain form of utility (e.g. being able to solo-DPS an add down in time where such would be a massive boon for the party due to certain mechanics, or how split mechanics may push others' rDPS below their norms), I don't want to push SAM above BLM generally, even if uptime may later favor one or the other after the due adjustments. (That last bit cannot be fully helped without too great of detail in fight craftsmanship to be warranted given varying DPS levels over skill and gear.)

Edit: Yes, this should parse out higher than raid tools would leave one to believe necessary (though SAM is more vulnerable to desync than BLM, it's only other Tier1 competitor). Adjusting values now.

Also, yes, Sharpcast, Swiftcast, Surecast, and Aetherial Manipulation animation locks are areas I'd very much like to see addressed on BLM. Oddly enough, Triplecast has never felt nearly as restricting at my ping. Personally, I was under the opinion that the Fire IV buff may have even been too much following the SMN nerfs, and that BLM would have been better served by reducing the relative costs of movement and through further QoL adjustment. They just stand out more on SAM as a 2s GCD is a wholly viable build and the necessary double-weaves can then clip even at very low pings.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

[INDENT]Midare is already overused in most cases. Decreasing its damage will increase skill gap, not decrease it, as would an increase to Shinten and Higanbana potency.

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Look at my post, thats exactly what i said. The difference between someone thinking about what to do as Samurai, and someone just aiming to "spam" midare as mich as possible is way too low in my opinion

Banana's DoT potency increased.
Gyoten's potency increased.

Yaten's buff to Enpi also grants a larger increase to Kenki generated.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Banana's DoT potency increased.
Gyoten's potency increased.

Yaten's buff to Enpi also grants a larger increase to Kenki generated.

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Higanbana, I would agree, probably does need an increase to the amount of damage it ticks for. If you add up the potency over time of it compared to Shadow Fang, Demolish, and Chaos Thrust, the damage is in line with other jobs. The only benefit is the Samurai doesn't have to reapply it as often.

Can we get like.. a 2 second increase on Third Eye as well. I know it's not a big deal but a lot of times I miss it just by the tiniest bit.

15% slashing debuff

Yukikaze combo potency up from 340 to 380
Kasha combo potency up from 400 to 440
Gekko combo potency up from 400 to 440 would be my guess.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

Yukikaze combo potency up from 340 to 380
Kasha combo potency up from 400 to 440
Gekko combo potency up from 400 to 440 would be my guess.

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I suspect that would further unbalance gear choices towards SkS. A much larger portion of gear-optimal play would quickly fall under a 2-second GCD, which may not suit a large portion of Samurai players.

I'll be interested in what SE propose, the problem they face is that selfish DPS is not able to compete with classes that offer competitive dps plus buffs. How do they overcome that without completely unbalancing the job?

My wish, even though I doubt it could happen, for more reasons than one.

Kaiten- Auto-Crits (like Life-Surge). Alternatively, changed to 60-70% damage bonus as opposed to the current 50%.

Third Eye- Open Eyes buff does not disappear upon usage of Merciful Eyes, OR Seigan, meaning you can use them more than once. Shorten buff timer to maybe 15 seconds instead of 30.

Hagakure- Sen consumption no longer required. Kenki generated flattened out to 40 or so, every usage.

Meditation- Grant 20 Kenki on activation, keep Kenki regen as a bonus effect, like it currently works.

Flat potency buffs here and there.

Third eye increased to 7 seconds + merciful eyes becomes party heal, seigen adds a damage down debuff to targets

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

I'll be interested in what SE propose, the problem they face is that selfish DPS is not able to compete with classes that offer competitive dps plus buffs. How do they overcome that without completely unbalancing the job?

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I think a good start to looking at this would be compare Samurai to Ninja. Look at things like "how much extra damage does the party deal when trick attack goes off" and "how much extra damage can tanks do due to shadewalker" and once that number is figured out over the course of two minutes (the cooldown time on shadewalker) then you figure out how to buff samurai potencies to equal out to the added DPS that would be there if that Samurai were a ninja instead. Make it so the difference is equal.

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Originally Posted by ElasmoFan

Can we get like.. a 2 second increase on Third Eye as well. I know it's not a big deal but a lot of times I miss it just by the tiniest bit.

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This though maybe by more than 2 seconds given the length of some animations that are present. Make it 10s at least maybe a buff to slogan as well.

Also lower recast in agatha. Lucky if you press it twice in some fights. Hardly worth the slot on your hotbar.

I think in terms of GCD skills most of a samurai's kit is fine. i'd maybe buff enhanced enpi a bit (350 maybe 400 potency)

Most buffs i'd like to see are to kenki usage skills. buff shinten, seigen, kyuten, players should be rewarded for making better use of there kenki. the base gcds and rotation is generally speaking fine as is.

its the kenki mastery that needs to be imporoved and make a bigger impact..

Midare Setsugekka 100% direct crit.

samurai becomes a tank, problem solved :D

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Originally Posted by MatJack

samurai becomes a tank, problem solved :D

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And with that "fix", identity overlap, non-viability on magic-heavy fights, subpar OT dps, and a slew of other issues. Hurray?

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

I'm gonna be that person and say that the best buff for SAM is deletion :P

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Originally Posted by MatJack

samurai becomes a tank, problem solved :D

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How about no to both of these.

On the actual topic, potency buffs are a given I think but they would have to be careful to break the balance of the current SAM rotation which has you using most of your toolkit. Like, buffing Midare to obscene levels would be fun but then you would likely always use it in favor of Hagakure + Shintens and that might be too dull.

It'd be nice if they took off the kenki cost of the gap-closer and gap-creator (how would you say that?). That's my take for now. I think it'd be a good start because samurai is all about up-time, but in most situations (from what I've heard) you want to avoid using those abilities to conserve kenki for Shinten or abilities. It would be a nice QoL change. Just keep the cooldowns they have but take away the kenki cost.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

It'd be nice if they took off the kenki cost of the gap-closer and gap-creator (how would you say that?). That's my take for now. I think it'd be a good start because samurai is all about up-time, but in most situations (from what I've heard) you want to avoid using those abilities to conserve kenki for Shinten or abilities. It would be a nice QoL change. Just keep the cooldowns they have but take away the kenki cost.

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They're not that bad. Shintenis a 300 potency ogcd. But if you use the disengage plus gap closer and enhanced enpi it's 500 potency in a single gcd.

As long as you don't break your combo using enpi its not to bad. But the enhanced enpi buff is 15 seconds so plenty of time to use the gap closer finish your combo and squeeze an enpi in before your next combo.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

They're not that bad. Shintenis a 300 potency ogcd. But if you use the disengage plus gap closer and enhanced enpi it's 500 potency in a single gcd.

As long as you don't break your combo using enpi its not to bad. But the enhanced enpi buff is 15 seconds so plenty of time to use the gap closer finish your combo and squeeze an enpi in before your next combo.

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This. If, say, Yaten provided a double-Empi instead of a triple-damage Empi, you could fill out an overclocked GCD from your rotation with a 400-potency GCD at zero Kenki cost. Yaten out at 100 potency for 10 Kenki, Empix2 for 20 Kenki and 200 potency, Gyoten back for 100 potency for 10 Kenki, and you'd arrive at the same Kenki value you started at.

As Shinten gives 300 potency for just 25 Kenki, that 10 Kenki spared is worth at least more 20% than the 100 potency.

Now, maybe for the sake of fluidity that minor buff could be warranted, but all I mean to point out here is that Yaten's already decently strong for its expense, and it wouldn't take much to make it a use-on-CD ability, which I think most would rather avoid.

QoL/lowering skill floor:
-Enpi does not break combo.
-Merciful Eye duration 3 > 4 seconds (though I'm fine with current duration)
-Outright TP cost reduction to all skills. I played all melee DPS and SAM is the only job that can still bottomed up TP at high skill speed (1400-1600) MNK does not have this problem despite having even lower GCD

Buff/raising skil ceiling:
-Seigan potency increased to 350, Kenki cost: 25 (buff from 13.33 pot/kenki to 14) making it more rewarding to pull off
-Guren potency buff to help with initial burst. One of SAM weakness is that the nature of their DPS flow does not really fit well with many buffs/debuffs window. MNK was in this kind of position but inclusion of Riddle of Fire completely fixed that, now their burst are ridiculous, which puts them ahead of SAM.

These are what I wanted to see.

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Originally Posted by mosaicex

-Outright TP cost reduction to all skills. I played all melee DPS and SAM is the only job that can still bottomed up TP at high skill speed (1400-1600) MNK does not have this problem despite having even lower GCD

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This, if only for equality in the current "TP is a joke (except if having used Invig just before dying)" world of Stormblood. Although it still took around 2 minutes to get within a GCD of TP starvation even at 2400 SkS (below a 2-second GCD), I've hit as low as a 1.6 GCD on Monk when my AST gave me an empowered Arrow in O6S, and it still didn't feel like I was losing anything. At that same SkS, I can sustain Monk infinitely off Invigorate alone.

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Seigan potency increased to 350, Kenki cost: 25 (buff from 13.33 pot/kenki to 14) making it more rewarding to pull off

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I like the idea of the oomph behind that, but also kind of like that we have costs available at 10, 15, 20, and 25.

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Guren potency buff to help with initial burst. One of SAM weakness is that the nature of their DPS flow does not really fit well with many buffs/debuffs window. MNK was in this kind of position but inclusion of Riddle of Fire completely fixed that, now their burst are ridiculous, which puts them ahead of SAM.

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With a 2s GCD, I feel like we're actually pretty solid in this regard. I can get Higanbana, my 3 Meikyo finishers, Guren, Shintenx2, and Midare all into Trick Attack. For me the biggest scare is just how long the Guren, Hagakure, and Meikyo animation locks can be.

Though, I'm also a speedaholic on account of having mained Monk prior, and can't really play Samurai except at the Hagakure-perfect 2.45 GCD or at 2.00 and below...

SAM gets deleted ....that is the BUFF lol

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Originally Posted by AlphaDragoon

How about no to both of these.

On the actual topic, potency buffs are a given I think but they would have to be careful to break the balance of the current SAM rotation which has you using most of your toolkit. Like, buffing Midare to obscene levels would be fun but then you would likely always use it in favor of Hagakure + Shintens and that might be too dull.

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Originally Posted by gizmo355gdas

SAM gets deleted ....that is the BUFF lol

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Seems the sentiment is shared. But hey, you guys will get your buffs, supposedly. Just hope they are not paltry like DRKs

Aside from obvious potency buffs, just remove slashing debuff from NIN & WAR. Despite the salt and tears from those 2, MCH & BRD don't get to apply their own piercing debuff. This also helps casters join groups if people grab SAM/NIN. NIN already has the most broken CD in the game and WAR gets buffed every single patch. This is the least they could do for SAM so they aren't locked out of PF groups 24/7.

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

Aside from obvious potency buffs, just remove slashing debuff from NIN & WAR. Despite the salt and tears from those 2, MCH & BRD don't get to apply their own piercing debuff. This also helps casters join groups if people grab SAM/NIN. NIN already has the most broken CD in the game and WAR gets buffed every single patch. This is the least they could do for SAM so they aren't locked out of PF groups 24/7.

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I main SAM and yet I still can only think "what the hell?" You want to give SAM more raid DPS than NIN, atop dealing nearly BLM-level (or slightly greater if enough movement is required) DPS?

How is shattering NIN and WAR rotations and available throughput "the least" SE can do?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I main SAM and yet I still can only think "what the hell?" You want to give SAM more raid DPS than NIN, atop dealing nearly BLM-level (or slightly greater if enough movement is required) DPS?

How is shattering NIN and WAR rotations and available throughput "the least" SE can do?

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BLM should be stronger, but SAM is literally nothing right now compared to the other 3 melee. NIN & WAR have been locked meta slots since 2.4, how is removing their slashing debuff "shattering" their rotation? May as well give PLD and DRK slashing debuff too, otherwise their rotation is shattered.

SAM is more of an outcast currently than 3.x PLD was, because at least people wanted a tank, even if it wasn't optimal. There's literally 0 good reason to take a SAM to anything right now. A few people have already suggested giving SAM 15% slashing debuff as a potential compromise if NIN & WAR get to keep everything + their slashing.

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

BLM should be stronger, but SAM is literally nothing right now compared to the other 3 melee. NIN & WAR have been locked meta slots since 2.4, how is removing their slashing debuff "shattering" their rotation? May as well give PLD and DRK slashing debuff too, otherwise their rotation is shattered.

SAM is more of an outcast currently than 3.x PLD was, because at least people wanted a tank, even if it wasn't optimal. There's literally 0 good reason to take a SAM to anything right now. A few people have already suggested giving SAM 15% slashing debuff as a potential compromise if NIN & WAR get to keep everything + their slashing.

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But, why? Why of all possible buffs to samurai would you firstly aim to debuff NIN and WAR? Why bother with a uniquely strong version of a ubiquitous ability after Stormblood just removed all hybrid vuln strikes?

By all means, buff Samurai, but why should it need to be kept solely because of unwarranted and arbitrary punishment to other jobs or for a gimmick tank buff.

Hell, 5% extra damage is more than Samurai even needs personally (such as if given through Jinpu). A unique form of Slashing would provide an extra ~4.2% DPS to every PLD and NIN, ~4.8% to every DRK, and +5% to every WAR, atop ~4.6% more Samurai DPS. Compare this to the ~1.4 to ~2% rDPS bonus of Trick Attack over time, albeit to all allies; even affecting just three allies, it'd already beat the beast of rDPS. Samurai would become mandatory, and for reasons that don't make Samurai itself more attractive. It just becomes a compositional check. Got our SAM? Okay, then we're allowed to raid.

BLM falls again completely out of meta. MNK falls out of meta. WAR gains an even greater lead. You've replaced one issue with three because you decided to buff the job by buffing something outside the job.

All I really want is tachi enpi to not break combo's.

Realistically the amount of single target damage required for raid groups to take sams and blm's over a meta comp is so outrageously high that it would cause immediate issues everywhere else in the game. The only realistic solution is homogenizing the classes somewhat like WoW did back in the day so raid utility skills like trick attack aren't only available on one job. If this necessitates a nerf of samurai's raw damage output then so be it. "Does a lot of damage, brings no utility" is a lousy class identity anyway.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Samurai would become mandatory, and for reasons that don't make Samurai itself more attractive. It just becomes a compositional check. Got our SAM? Okay, then we're allowed to raid.

BLM falls again completely out of meta. MNK falls out of meta. WAR gains an even greater lead. You've replaced one issue with three because you decided to buff the job by buffing something outside the job.

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What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

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Originally Posted by aozoranoyume

What do you think it has been and is right now? Got our NIN? Okay. Got our DRG? Okay, then we're allowed to raid. BLM & MNK can't fall out of meta if they were never in it in the first place. As long as Square continues to think selfish DPS are just as efficient as rDPS contributions, the meta will remain permanent as it has since 3.0. Potency buffs have done literally nothing for BLM to gain favor in the raid scene so why would it work for SAM?

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Potency buffs for BLM should be larger in my opinion. And SAM needs big personal DPS buffs as well. I believe they said they aren't going to give SAM any utility buffs and to make adjustments to fit their job description which is to do very high damage.

SAM and BLM should be like at least 800-1000 DPS above when played near optimal. It won't matter if this makes them too strong for content like dungeons and story mode raids cause those content barely mean anything and are easy as hell.

sam needs a buff.... and blm might still need a slight buff

blm should still be slightly above sam, due to sam's slashing debuff.. and sam eating drg's dragon sight or/and profiting from mnk's brotherhood..., which both happen more often/ more likely than a blm getting a garuda int buff

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

sam needs a buff.... and blm might still need a slight buff

blm should still be slightly above sam, due to sam's slashing debuff.. and sam eating drg's dragon sight or/and profiting from mnk's brotherhood..., which both happen more often/ more likely than a blm getting a garuda int buff

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Logically I'd say SAM should be ahead of BLM.

Casters typically have the relative safety of range. Which is why there usually less powerful than brute force melee jobs.