Ninja and the Mudra System. Suggestion to Make Ninja Smoother and Better For everyone

Hello. My name is Raven Born from Omega, and I have been playing the game since 2.35/2.4 I've always loved Ninja, and have been playing it on and off since I started playing the game, I keep switching to Monk. The reason behind this is the Mudra system for Ninja, While it's a unique system for Ninja, it does have its flaws. I want to talk about the Flaws of the mudra system, and Give a suggestion regarding a change, which could be done by the next expansion.


the Mudra system is unique, But due to the combat system within the game, and Latency, it feels very clunky to use most of the time. and it hurts personal performance by quite a bit, as it adds up during an encounter, and could potentially hurt the party in some ways, whilst the chance is small, it could still happen. Currently there are "Too many Choices". And it could be reduced to the "Useful" skills instead.

Suggestions: Below, I will explain what should/needs to be changed, and the reason behind the change.

Mudra System: Ten, Chi, and Jin mudra skills should be removed and replaced with the following:

Ten -> changed to Katon: Instead of using the combination, make it so Katon is its own ability, and Give it a 20 Seconds Cooldown, Potency of the skill needs no change.

Chi -> Change to Fuma Shuriken, which later changes to Raiton via a Trait: Same as above, instead of using the combination, change the mudra to Fuma Shuriken, which then turns into Raiton via a Skill Trait (Level 50). Reason behind the Trait: it Gives a sense of powering up when leveling the class, once you reach the Level requirement to unlock the Trait, you get a much more powerful skill, which looks amazing. it makes the Leveling experience of the class even better, and fixes any issues with Potency loss once you reach max level.

Jin -> Change this skill to Doton: Doton is a useful ability, there are times where it is superior to Katon, and therefore should not be removed. The skill looks very good as well, and is very handy for Casual play and Raid play. Potency does not need changed.

All of these 3 skills Share the same Cooldown of 20 seconds, Meaning when you use Raiton, your other two skills go on Cooldown as well.

Hyoton -> Remove the skill from Ninja's kit. This skill is almost never used, and if so, it is used by accident. Potency is very low, and there is no reason for it to exist outside of PVP. since the change to the PVP System, this skill could be PVP exclusive skill, as it is useful in PVP, in PVE, not so much.

Huton -> This ability is good; it should not be changed itself. However, the way in which you obtain the Huton Buff should be changed. As of Right now you use it prepull and/or when you are resurrected, and Continue to maintain the buff with the Skill Armor Crush. if we are using Armor Crush anyways, why not remove the Mudra combination to obtain Huton, and make it so we get the buff for 30-40 Seconds when using the Skill Armor Crush. (Similar to Samurai Shifu)

Suiton -> Remove this skill, Add 180 Potency to Trick Attack, and make is so Trick attack can be used on a 60 Second cooldown, without needing the Hidden Buff you gain from using Suiton. Reason for adding potency: Suiton is a 180 Potency, you always only use it to be able to use Trick Attack, or sometimes use it in the Ten Chi Jin combo. Most Ninjas move and auto cancel Ten Chi Jin once they use Raiton. and They only don't cancel it when Trick attack is coming off cooldown, and they need to use Suiton within their Ten Chi Jin. Therefore giving 180 potency to Trick Attack makes do the same potency as Suiton + Trick Attack.

Ten Chi Jin-> Change Doubled Potency to 100% Direct Critical Hit for the next 3 Mudra skills. let the player use Triple Raiton, or the same Mudra skill more than once. If you decide to allow the player to use Triple Raiton with 100% Direct Critical Hit, then the extra potency added to Trick Attack is not needed in my opinion. Or Change and bring down Raiton's Potency by 20.

Ten Chi Jin (Seconds Suggestion) -> Keep Double Potency Effect. Add (Will not Critical Hit or Direct Hit) effect, Just like old Duality. And make it a buff instead. For the next 10 seconds, you can use 3 Mudras and Weave them within Weaponskills (GCDs). The skill does NOT end when moving. Think of it as a Perfect Balance Buff. it's just a buff.

Extra Thoughts: Another reason behind these changes is to make it easier for players to play the same type of DPS without having to adjust to a COMPLETELY new system. Every Melee has their Off-Global Cooldowns (oGCDs) that they can use within their weaponskills. Ninja requires timing and thinking ahead, and with the suggestions above, that does not change, and the theme of the class still stays the same. However, it makes it easier to play for many players.


These changes apply to everyone, it keeps the class smooth and cool and interesting for those who love the class and main the class. It keeps the class amazing and people will not have to worry about latency anymore when raiding with ninja. At the same time, it will make the class easy to pick up and fun for casual players as well. Both parties, Casual and Hardcore players benefit from these changes, and playing the class becomes much more user friendly for someone who plays multiple classes.

It is easier to pick up and remember. But at the same time, the class keeps its theme, and it keeps the condition "Easy to play, Hard to Master". Which is what Monk and Samurai are in my opinion. Easy to play, hard to master. The Skillful will be rewarded, and the Casual players will not be punished as hard as they are right now.

I'd really rather not.

I'm all for making Mudra smoother, but I want Mudra, not just various Ninjutsu casts.

Etherblock - not going to comment on the topic. Just wanted to let you know that you can bypass the character limit on post's by using the EDIT feature.

So what you do is make a post, then click the "Edit Post" button... which then allows you to add in all the rest of what you want to post, and post over the character limit. No need to post 2+ post's in a row, just use the edit feature.

Doing this will make things easier to follow, keep everything in the one post... and prevent a chain of post's being interrupted by someone replying to you while you're still typing out / posting new post's.

As you said earlier, you keep switching to monk. But get this, not everyone needs to like everything and that's great! This game offers different styles (and personally I can't stand the monk combat system) precisely because they are different. I for one like the ninja system because it is like it is. I duly hope they don't dump down each class to just be copies of each other with different skill names. If you find NIN system difficult for you, then just play something else. There's 4 melee damages to choose from, pick the one that suits best. Don't try to ruin other's favourites just because they don't suit you.

Without the mudra system the way it is ninja would be like the other melee classes. Ninja is not a hard class to play and needs no changes. >_> if you keep switching to monk because this system bothers you I'm pretty sure you have your answer. Don't try to change something because it doesn't suit you personally lol. Was really hoping this was a troll post but it honestly doesn't seem that it is.

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Originally Posted by Kamatsu

Etherblock - not going to comment on the topic. Just wanted to let you know that you can bypass the character limit on post's by using the EDIT feature.

So what you do is make a post, then click the "Edit Post" button... which then allows you to add in all the rest of what you want to post, and post over the character limit. No need to post 2+ post's in a row, just use the edit feature.

Doing this will make things easier to follow, keep everything in the one post... and prevent a chain of post's being interrupted by someone replying to you while you're still typing out / posting new post's.

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Sorry! This was basically my first post on the forums, and I had no idea how to do that. Thank you, i will change it now

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Originally Posted by VampericKitteh

Without the mudra system the way it is ninja would be like the other melee classes. Ninja is not a hard class to play and needs no changes. >_> if you keep switching to monk because this system bothers you I'm pretty sure you have your answer. Don't try to change something because it doesn't suit you personally lol. Was really hoping this was a troll post but it honestly doesn't seem that it is.

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it is not a troll post no. this was an idea I had to make the mudra system more smooth. I don't think the class is hard to play, I've raided with it in Coil, Alexander and Omega. I love it, I just think the system is a bit clunky and this was my suggestion. if people don't like the idea that's fine, Just wanted to throw out my idea that's all.

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Originally Posted by Sida

As you said earlier, you keep switching to monk. But get this, not everyone needs to like everything and that's great! This game offers different styles (and personally I can't stand the monk combat system) precisely because they are different. I for one like the ninja system because it is like it is. I duly hope they don't dump down each class to just be copies of each other with different skill names. If you find NIN system difficult for you, then just play something else. There's 4 melee damages to choose from, pick the one that suits best. Don't try to ruin other's favourites just because they don't suit you.

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I do not believe its too hard. I've played each Melee to a high level, in Savage raids and such. My performance with Ninja is okay in my opinion, I didn't use to parse at all, but started doing so sometime during Omega, and i think my scores aren't too bad. , it shows that I can play the class at least, and I don't think its hard, i just wanted to throw in my suggestion, if people don't like it thats fine, I myself don't like each classes being dump down and stuff. So i agree with you on that, i just wanted to give my suggestion thats all.

Here's my FFLogs in case you wanted to see it. I'm not the best, but it at least proves im not bad i guess, in my opinion at least https://www.fflogs.com/rankings/character/5196143/17/

As convenient as this would be, it would strip away from something hailed as a core identity element for Ninja, and although it's one thing to look at how jobs work mechanically, it's also important not to sacrifice job identity for it. Yes, there are some things they could do to modify the Mudra system like change Hyoton to a stun instead of a root, or allowing the holding of Mudra for an extra few seconds to accommodate for latency issues, or (better yet) reduce the damage bonus of Trick Attack to like 3% while extending the duration by five seconds or so and allowing you not to have to cram absolutely everything into such a minuscule time frame.

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Originally Posted by Etherblock

I do not believe its too hard. I've played each Melee to a high level, in Savage raids and such.

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I wasn't meaning to suggest it's hard for you and I apologise if I sounded like that. My word choise 'difficult' was I context, "if you find the mudra system to not be to the liking, then maybe consider playing another class" . My point was, many people who like ninja like it specifically because the system is as it is, complexity included.

There are only two things I dislike abut NIN, which are my mudra inputs randomly getting eaten by latency and the animation delay on Trick Attack + latency making it so there's no guarantee you'll actually connect that back hit even if you hit the hotkey while something's back is turned, particularly when fighting stir-crazy hunts like Erle or Luminare and/or having a tank who can't seem to hold still.

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Originally Posted by Sida

I wasn't meaning to suggest it's hard for you and I apologise if I sounded like that. My word choise 'difficult' was I context, "if you find the mudra system to not be to the liking, then maybe consider playing another class" . My point was, many people who like ninja like it specifically because the system is as it is, complexity included.

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The system is cool , not gonna lie, but the execution is clunky in my opinion. But i don't know how they can make it feel better.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There are only two things I dislike abut NIN, which are my mudra inputs randomly getting eaten by latency and the animation delay on Trick Attack + latency making it so there's no guarantee you'll actually connect that back hit even if you hit the hotkey while something's back is turned, particularly when fighting stir-crazy hunts like Erle or Luminare and/or having a tank who can't seem to hold still.

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I agree with both of your points, and that is the reason i made this thread. but i suppose people are right when they say it seems like i'm suggesting the class to be dump down. That was not my intention of course. but yeah, very clunky at most times when using Mudras and Trick attack

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Originally Posted by Etherblock

The system is cool , not gonna lie, but the execution is clunky in my opinion. But i don't know how they can make it feel better.

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Much of your "make it better" seems to revolve around "remove the things people might use by mistake" and that is a slippery slope of these ever was one. You cannot excell at something if you can't make mistakes, and choosing which mudra to use is it's own game, part of the class. true, you might sometimes and up with wrong skill "woops, wanted Doton" or even the dreaded bunny hat, but that is the challenge of it, to not make those mistakes.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

There are only two things I dislike abut NIN, which are my mudra inputs randomly getting eaten by latency and the animation delay on Trick Attack + latency making it so there's no guarantee you'll actually connect that back hit even if you hit the hotkey while something's back is turned, particularly when fighting stir-crazy hunts like Erle or Luminare and/or having a tank who can't seem to hold still.

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mudra lag is the worst thing. dunno why it got worse in 4.0 but it's basically impossible to even toss a fuma shurikan without clipping gcds. pings only 140-155 which isn't much more than it was in heavensward but I find the job completely unplayable at the minute Ten chi jin is even more of a nightmare.

definitely needs improvement.

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Originally Posted by Sida

Much of your "make it better" seems to revolve around "remove the things people might use by mistake" and that is a slippery slope of these ever was one. You cannot excell at something if you can't make mistakes, and choosing which mudra to use is it's own game, part of the class. true, you might sometimes and up with wrong skill "woops, wanted Doton" or even the dreaded bunny hat, but that is the challenge of it, to not make those mistakes.

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While I agree with the principal of this. latency is a massive factor in whether the right mudra goes out or not. player mistakes are a factor sure but the amount of times you might press ten chi jin ninjutsu. and end up throwing a hyoten out because the system didn't register either the ten or the chi. you pressed the right buttons so didn't make any mistakes but latency screws you up.
Or you press ten chi jin and still see the ration icon so you press jin again and end up with the bunny jutsu..again latency is the problem not player mistakes. a player sees ration the correct thing to do is press jin for suiton.. and only then does the system realise you've pressed it twice.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

mudra lag is the worst thing. dunno why it got worse in 4.0 but it's basically impossible to even toss a fuma shurikan without clipping gcds. pings only 140-155 which isn't much more than it was in heavensward but I find the job completely unplayable at the minute Ten chi jin is even more of a nightmare.

definitely needs improvement.

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Funniest thing is still seeing two separate Ninjutsu animations go off at the same time, like casting a Raiton only to see a Fuma Shuriken fly and then the Raiton goes off and deals damage.

Oh, just figured out another solution: disable the casting of the same Mudra more than once. Sure, we'd have to sacrifice the fail bunny, but it'd be worth it.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Oh, just figured out another solution: disable the casting of the same Mudra more than once. Sure, we'd have to sacrifice the fail bunny, but it'd be worth it.

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That is a change I wouldn't mind seeing. It wouldn't drastically alter the system in itself :)

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

Funniest thing is still seeing two separate Ninjutsu animations go off at the same time, like casting a Raiton only to see a Fuma Shuriken fly and then the Raiton goes off and deals damage.

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That's part of their mudra fix from earlier. Before that, you'd see the Fuma fly and then get an error message you can't do that and stand around stupid <.<' I can still get that error message when doing Huton, because the Raiton will try to attack the enemy, but Huton can't be used on an enemy at all.
This is why I have started using Raiton - If I am using Fuma, this failsafe doesn't seem to trigger and my ninjutsu often won't go off at all, while I am naturally thinking it did and continue with my rotation and get a bunny as a result. It's probably because ninjutsu without a mudra doesn't do anything and thus cannot be put in the skill queue.

Personally, at 230MS, I haven't had much trouble with Mudra simply not registering. Longer mudra sequences are smooth as butter, the actual ninjutsu and sometimes the first Mudra are just slow. The prior is probably normal, the latter is hard to explain. I sometimes can get it off pretty much instantly in spite of the large latency, sometimes it has a very significant delay. I attribute it to the skill queue system as well - I noticed that on casters, queuing OGCDs is a thing like regular GCDs and it makes a world of difference in the time it takes for the skill to activate. Chances are, this same thing is what causes mudras to be so erratic, as even on an EU world with 20 MS, I can get a significant variance in activation time.

Personally, I would keep the Mudra system as it is now, mainly because it allows for more skills without adding any button.

For example, they could decide that the order of the mudra itself determine what jutsu will be used, instead of only the last one, and create a bunch of nw skills, or create 4-mudra-sequences for new prepull jutsus, etc...

If your issue is latency, I'd rather see something like making mudra input not breaking in-between GCD, meaning that you cast futon normally or add some "futon stance" like monk's fists (or just make it a passive skill and simply remove armor crush), and make the mudras themselves giving you a "proc buff" with unlimited time, and having the choice of weaving them between GCD's or execute them like we do now (for jumping boss mecanics or long range attacks for example).
It would make Raiton usefull again since it wouldn't clip the GCD anymore, Suiton is usually use at the 5-6 GCD anyway so not an issue their either, no need to Futon when you rez... and so on. It wouldn't change the Ten Chi Jin mecanics either, since it block your GCDs anyway.

It "follows" somehow your idea, but let Ninja keeping their own identity, and not making oGCD boring or similar to other classes.

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Originally Posted by Sida

Much of your "make it better" seems to revolve around "remove the things people might use by mistake" and that is a slippery slope of these ever was one. You cannot excell at something if you can't make mistakes, and choosing which mudra to use is it's own game, part of the class. true, you might sometimes and up with wrong skill "woops, wanted Doton" or even the dreaded bunny hat, but that is the challenge of it, to not make those mistakes.

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Honestly, I wouldn't even mind if bunnying became impossible because each mudra can only be used once. I don't see that nearly so much as a reduction to skill ceiling nearly as to packet loss penalty (which even at a relatively low ping, this game seems to have in spades compared to my other MMOs). It takes one all of 10 attempts, tops, to learn how not to bunny. Whether your internet will thus oblige is a different story.

Ideally, I'd like the Ninjutsu cast itself to be a bit quicker, Fuma faintly stronger, and nothing to break Ninjutsu combos, but that's wholly superfluous, and largely just comes up with a unique bandaid for a game-wide issue.

In the end, what Mudras need most is the same as any other skill: a larger window of the prior animation that accepts queues, and perhaps further allowance for clipping based on some manner of client-side timer to make up for remaining ping-varied activation times. In a game so dependent on double (or in Suiton's and Doton's cases, quadruple) -weaving, it's not acceptable that a whole half the playerbase is penalized for doing just that, sometimes to the point of the choice being inferior.

Sorry OP, those Mudras are Homeage to my love for NIN in XI. If anything, I want more Mudras. I don't want NIN to become a glorified BLM.

The mudras are great, ten chi jin well that's a different story to me it's kind of a crappy skill but besides that I like how nin plays

The reason I don’t play Nin too much is due to mudras. They kind of interrupt the flow of combat to me, and it’s harder with even slightly high ping.

I couldn't stand to be without the mudra sounds and screen effects, it all plays into the ninja aesthetic.
If the latency is getting you down, just use fuma instead of raiton. Spam the Ninjutsu button instead of the mudra buttons, only press them once. Don't fret over a bit of gcd clipping, it won't matter outside of the two highest savage instances.

I prefer combo system instead of hotbar clutter of button for each skill.

No thanks. The main reason I even switched my main to NIN is because, as a PS4+controller user, the Mudra system helps immensely with hotbar clutter by locking all the Ninjutsu abilities behind different combos of only three button presses. Perhaps I could get around that by experimenting with my hotbar setups, but if they changed it, I'd be really upset. :(

Other than that, as people have said: it makes the job fun and unique, it adds to the aesthetic, etc. It's really not hard to memorize the button combos to prevent your DPS from suffering, and if you do have an issue with it seeming "clunky" or you mess up your combos too often, then stick to a different job as your main.

Hell to the no.

The Mudra system is what makes NIN stand out. Otherwise it is just "any old DPS"...
That's like saying the Sen system for SAM should be replaced with 3x skills on fixed cooldowns.

Now I am saying all of this as an Australian player, who plays with 250ms+, and mained NIN during FCoB when the mudra latency was at its worst, and before they changed to the client-side mudras that we have today.
In fact the only issue you should be having with mudras now days is that your buddy who lives next door to the data centre is probably doing more DPS than you.

If you want a latency-friendly job, don't play NIN.

As for "changing the mudra system".. The most I would agree with changing is the ability to weave other skills between mudras without bunny. By that I mean Jin > Spinning Slash > Chi > Gust Slash > Ten > AE > Ninjutsu.. This would reduce the effect on latency due to the ability to weave mudras between individual GCD, instead of cramming it into one.

But no, don't touch NIN.

As a Ninja main here is my 2 cents:

Making Ninjutsu no longer need Mudras is absurd. Ninja have always used hand signs to trigger their Ninjutsu, and this idea of yours Etherblock would take away a key aesthetic of Ninjas.

It is no secret Hyoton is very underused for sure, but removing Suiton is a big no. Think of it like this: Trick Attack (and the previously removed Sneak Attack) are stealth abilities used on enemies when they can't see you. The water from Suiton can be used as a sort of cloak as well, as the water would hinder sight thus allowing a stealth attack to happen. Yes Ninja would benefit from being able to use Trick Attack anytime it's ready but aesthetically it would not do to make it that way.

Finally there is the matter of Ten Chi Jin. You want to remove those individual Mudra so all Ninjutsu have their own individual buttons with no combination requirements, and yet you want to keep the ability that is actually named after the Mudras? That is another issue your idea has. Sure you could just change the name but that isn't really the point. I mean what would you change it to anyway?


So there you have it: all the aesthetic issues with your idea. You basically want to take away the identity of the Ninja for quality of life improvements which, by the way, are not as good as you think. Also as has been said already, it would bring hotbar clutter. Furthermore, when you take into account ways to reset the Mudra cooldown you are actually nerfing Katon by making it have its own cooldown. Also Raiton is not completely superior to Fuma Shuriken: it benefits from slash debuff and has longer range. It's true even with slash debuff Raiton is still stronger but there is still the range gap. In conclusion, while some of your ideas prove to be buffs, some prove to be nerfs, and the overall impact is you want things to take less time to execute, which can actually backfire if it screws up rotations too much. Therefore, this idea is definitely not gonna happen, and Ninjas everywhere would riot if it did.

P.S. This thread is probably in regards to mudra latency, which is understandable, but the ideas in this thread are not the answer.

Why not both? Just add the ninjutsu as skills and allow people to choose if they want to use mudra or not.

Mudra needs to be smoother, not removed. The issue is that currently the optimal way to play NIN is to use mudras as fast as possible without clipping your GCD, which is heavily latency based. The fact that Fuma vs Raiton is even a thing is a bit annoying.

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Originally Posted by Altena

As for "changing the mudra system".. The most I would agree with changing is the ability to weave other skills between mudras without bunny. By that I mean Jin > Spinning Slash > Chi > Gust Slash > Ten > AE > Ninjutsu.. This would reduce the effect on latency due to the ability to weave mudras between individual GCD, instead of cramming it into one.

But no, don\\'t touch NIN.

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That could work If they tweaked recast a bit. Allowed the mudra buttons a 10 second recast while giving the ninjutsu button a 20 second one..

This would need to be done so players could essentially precast the mudras in the gcds before ninjutsu came off cool down.

Otherwise ninjutsu would be slowed down alot. If you used ninjutsu and had to wait 20 seconds before you could even press the mudras. Then did ten chi and Jon between your next 3 gcds and ninjutsu. Your effectively using ninjutsu every 26 seconds instead of every 20
Wouldn't really change anything as players with lower ping would still be knocking them out 6 seconds faster as they can still press all the buttons between gcds . Thus the massive gap is still there.

If you shortened he mudras cool down you could then do ten chi and Jon in the 3 gcds before the ninjutsu button come off cool down and still bang out ninjutsu every 20 seconds. This way the impacts of latency would be quite significantly reduced

Better Suggestion: Mudras can only be clicked once per 4 seconds. Done. You did it. Lag be damned.
You will never mess up your mudra.
"But Tarta, I like the bunny" - wait more than 4 seconds, boom bunny.
Everything fixed. 1 line of code.
Easiest fix.

Suggestion: move the servers to Chicago