MCH adjustement

Hi everyone,
I am most annoyed that MCH never receive better adjustment compared to other classes.
The DPS is the lowest compared to the others too.
I am definitively angry 'cause it's my favourite Job.:mad::mad::mad:

What do you think about that?:confused::confused:


https://imgur.com/rewJWR6

Is MCH the lowest though?

:mad:YES definitively!:mad:

Is it really, the lowest? Consider everything in the MCH toolkit. I am with Canadane, is it really the lowest? No expert but just saying ☺

MCH isn't the lowest DPS, they're actually on the higher end when played at a high skill level. The issue is the job in general is very, VERY clunky and its rotation/opener is super latency-based. I don't know how anyone can reasonably play MCH/BRD on a controller.

For the majority of the community, it's not a fun job to play. MCH could be the highest DPS in the game and it'd probably still be the lowest population DPS class. They actually were one of, if not the top DPS during the last Heavensward raid tier, and they were still nowhere to be found.

If you look at 75% overall for O1s as an example, MCH is about the fourth highest dps in the game, only losing out to SMN, SAM and baaaarely BLM. Not to mention it brings 6% Hypercharge, Dismantle, and Refresh. MCH(and SMN) are so strong rn it's basically broken.

Honestly I tried different rotations but still with weird DPS opener. I can really see the huge difference between some other classes and mine.

MCH is a strong class in the hands of a strong player. Maybe the huge difference isn't because of your class.

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

Honestly I tried different rotations but still with weird DPS opener. I can really see the huge difference between some other classes and mine.

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What BiS style have you chosen, and which opener do you use? The one I chose to go with is the one that nets me a 2.43s GCD ( http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/134FY credit to the balance discord), and the 3-ammo opener is the one I'm currently most comfortable with. Have you done a lot of practice on a training dummy? I spent a few hours on the dummy until the opener was muscle memory and my mind started to put together the whats and whys of it.

I'd love to play MCH if I could pull off any kind of a reasonable opener/Overheat rotation with my 180-200 latency, but alas...

Are you kidding? Machinist has been one of the strongest DPS classes since its creation.

MCH's are actually kinda overpowered.

Not only do they contribute a large amount to raid DPS, but they tend to be around the 3rd / 4th strongest in terms of personal DPS for fights in the current raid tier.

Only SUM and SAM consistently perform higher, with BLM and/or MNK pulling ahead in certain encounters. Something you might notice about these classes is that they offer far less than MCH in terms of team support!

Its not an easy class to perform highly with, and it can be especially punishing if you mess up or lose track of your rotation! So, maybe they could make it less punishing or give it some QoL changes (Although some will be annoyed if it gets 'dumbed down' too much)... but it really doesn't need to be made stronger.

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Originally Posted by AxelDH

MCH's are actually kinda overpowered.

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Honestly, I'm not sure about that due to some removal in last updated.

MCH : 4.2 preliminary note = RIP

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

MCH : 4.2 preliminary note = RIP

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Good. MCH has been meta since its creation. Let another class have its chance

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Good. MCH has been meta since its creation. Let another class have its chance

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I'm not talking to be better or worst than others. Here is about DPS!

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

I'm not talking to be better or worst than others. Here is about DPS!

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Machinist has been one of the strongest classes for raidwide DPS since it was introduced into the game in 3.0. I find it very hard to have sympathy for a class that has deservedly been nerfed when that class has been overpowered for so long during raid patches.

Now SE should do something about Bard, Dragoon and Ninja.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Machinist has been one of the strongest classes for raidwide DPS since it was introduced into the game in 3.0. I find it very hard to have sympathy for a class that has deservedly been nerfed when that class has been overpowered for so long during raid patches.

Now SE should do something about Bard, Dragoon and Ninja.

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Just an FYI, NIN has always been stronger then MCH since release. Have you ever tried playing MCH 3.0? God it was worthless. And it's not the job or the player base that is to blame for this. It's SE that is the blame. It's still retarded that both the support dps combined can do more raid damage then double caster could do...

Ow and MCH wasnt part of the meta in 4.0 because of how shit and worthless the job was and right now it's replaceable with a SMN. 4.2 is gonna make it so MCH is gonna be locked out like how BLM is being treated right now. I can go sit my main down next to the SAMs...

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Machinist has been one of the strongest classes for raidwide DPS since it was introduced into the game in 3.0.

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Agree with you but lost many things on next updates cause ppl are never happy about things. Ppl prefer to complain about others job instead of asking better adjustment for their own jobs.
That's it!

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

Agree with you but lost many things on next updates cause ppl are never happy about things. Ppl prefer to complain about others job instead of asking better adjustment for their own jobs.
That's it!

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I feel like I should qoute the reason as to why you made this post in the beginning...

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

Hi everyone,
I am most annoyed that MCH never receive better adjustment compared to other classes.
The DPS is the lowest compared to the others too.
I am definitively angry 'cause it's my favourite Job.:mad::mad::mad:

What do you think about that?:confused::confused:

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So if I read this correct, you agree that MCH was one of the strongest jobs, BUT when you made this post it was the lowest in dps?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're starting to sound kind of like a hypocrite.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

Just an FYI, NIN has always been stronger then MCH since release.

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I never said otherwise

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

Have you ever tried playing MCH 3.0? God it was worthless.

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It really wasn't: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._4_days_after/

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

And it's not the job or the player base that is to blame for this. It's SE that is the blame. It's still retarded that both the support dps combined can do more raid damage then double caster could do...

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Ultimately, yes, I agree. But the community doesn't help matters when they complained so hard in 3.0 leading to the infamous ranged arms race.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

Ow and MCH wasnt part of the meta in 4.0 because of how shit and worthless the job was and right now it's replaceable with a SMN. 4.2 is gonna make it so MCH is gonna be locked out like how BLM is being treated right now. I can go sit my main down next to the SAMs...

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I specifically said raid patches. 4.05 it was meta after progression ended. Replacing a MCH with a SMN is a sub optimal in certain fights.

4.2 is not going to make MCH similar to current Black Mage. It is nowhere near that bad.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I never said otherwise

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The whole reason it looks so strong is because of that dumb piercing buff, that's why it looks so strong. Yes, it can do a lot of damage in the right hands. But it's the piercing buff that is the blame for it. This is why I've suggested multiple times to change both BRD and MCH their damage type, so only RDM and DRG benefit from the piercing. Even if RDMs benefit is minimal.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

It really wasn't: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._4_days_after/

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Viable and feeling worthless to play are different, every job right now is viable. Even BLM or RDM in the current state. Just look at BLM and SMN right now, BLM should clearly do more raiddamage then SMN, but SMN is capable of keeping up with the damage AND bring utility. MCH got a lot more viable during Midas and actually became part of the meta between Midas and Creator.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Ultimately, yes, I agree. But the community doesn't help matters when they complained so hard in 3.0 leading to the infamous ranged arms race.

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Yes, the community doesnt help with complaining as much as they're doing right now. Everybody always shouting about dps increases, and I'm just sitting here waiting for MCH to be playable for me again with my shitty ping...

I've mentioned at other locations as well that BRD and MCH should be chosen for the refresh ability and other utility not counting the attack buffs. It's just dumb how both so called support dps are part of the meta. They should be used like current RDM (Not saying that this is good either, but it would make a lot more sense then their current spot). Not going for progression? Then it wont matter if you take a BRD or MCH. Going for speed kills? Then they should be better off taking 2 casters that can keep buffing each other or the entire party then having BRD/MCH combi (If all of the players are on the same skill level that is).

Another dumb thing from SE their side is the buffs like Embolden and brotherhood. They should either make this effect magic damage done as well or change them to something else because again, it's just dumb and enforcing more physical dps. Except for contagion, how many buffs do we even have that only buff magic damage? Pretty sure that Contagion is the only buff that buffs magic damage.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

4.2 is not going to make MCH similar to current Black Mage. It is nowhere near that bad.

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It might not be as bad as BLM in its current state, but SMN is going to be stronger then a MCH and have a raise (Not sure why you need this in a farm group but mistakes still happen and this can still save the run if it doesnt get out of hand). So SMN will most definitly take MCHs current spot with the hypercharge nerf. RDM is gonna be taken instead of MCH for the progression raise and speed kills will probably either include SMN or BLM, depending on how good these changes will work for BLM.

The main issue I have is not specifically SE going back to the 5% hypercharge but the fact that BRD is staying 100% untouched while we're getting access to more and more stat points, which means more and more CRIT for BRD. Same with RDM, why isnt SE adjusting some of the potencies to make them a bit stronger? Or making the melee attacks scale from INT instead of STR? It's a joke how RDM is doing less damage then a BRD, which is the job with the most utility in the game.

The point I want to get across is that SE should just nerf BRD and MCH a lot but in a fair way, not how they're doing this right now since BRD is gonna get access to so much crit and just turn in to a 100% must have job, especially with a DRG or SCH and MCH is gonna be eating the dust and sitting around.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

The whole reason it looks so strong is because of that dumb piercing buff, that's why it looks so strong. Yes, it can do a lot of damage in the right hands. But it's the piercing buff that is the blame for it. This is why I've suggested multiple times to change both BRD and MCH their damage type, so only RDM and DRG benefit from the piercing. Even if RDMs benefit is minimal.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

Viable and feeling worthless to play are different, every job right now is viable. Even BLM or RDM in the current state. Just look at BLM and SMN right now, BLM should clearly do more raiddamage then SMN, but SMN is capable of keeping up with the damage AND bring utility. MCH got a lot more viable during Midas and actually became part of the meta between Midas and Creator.

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Machinist was more than viable in 3.0. You don't get to clear o4s at minimum ilevel with a non meta class. No other composition could do that with that low gear. It just took people a while to catch on to MCH buffing 3 melee's which thankfully has since been reworked. MCH then got overbuffed in 3.2 and was part of the Meta for Midas. In 3.3 Bard got overbuffed and replaced SMN/MNK (SMN was used for a very inventive bane strat in A8S).

Regarding BLM vs SMN right now - That isn't because SMN is overpowered, it is because BLM is so weak.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

Yes, the community doesnt help with complaining as much as they're doing right now. Everybody always shouting about dps increases, and I'm just sitting here waiting for MCH to be playable for me again with my shitty ping...

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I think ping issues are a completely different subject to game balance. The issue is that SE do not listen to the right players (if at all).

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

I've mentioned at other locations as well that BRD and MCH should be chosen for the refresh ability and other utility not counting the attack buffs. It's just dumb how both so called support dps are part of the meta. They should be used like current RDM (Not saying that this is good either, but it would make a lot more sense then their current spot). Not going for progression? Then it wont matter if you take a BRD or MCH. Going for speed kills? Then they should be better off taking 2 casters that can keep buffing each other or the entire party then having BRD/MCH combi (If all of the players are on the same skill level that is).

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Personally, i'd think it would be better to remove the utility from one of them, remove disembowel and then make RDM/NIN into support DPS - with low end DPS to boot, but the utility to compete with BRD.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

Another dumb thing from SE their side is the buffs like Embolden and brotherhood. They should either make this effect magic damage done as well or change them to something else because again, it's just dumb and enforcing more physical dps. Except for contagion, how many buffs do we even have that only buff magic damage? Pretty sure that Contagion is the only buff that buffs magic damage.

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It wouldn't be so bad if running caster comps was reliable, but I do see your point.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

It might not be as bad as BLM in its current state, but SMN is going to be stronger then a MCH and have a raise (Not sure why you need this in a farm group but mistakes still happen and this can still save the run if it doesnt get out of hand). So SMN will most definitly take MCHs current spot with the hypercharge nerf. RDM is gonna be taken instead of MCH for the progression raise and speed kills will probably either include SMN or BLM, depending on how good these changes will work for BLM.

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SMN and MCH are still going to be close, but MNK is going to be better than both. SMN's nerfs aren't to be scoffed at.

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

The main issue I have is not specifically SE going back to the 5% hypercharge but the fact that BRD is staying 100% untouched while we're getting access to more and more stat points, which means more and more CRIT for BRD. Same with RDM, why isnt SE adjusting some of the potencies to make them a bit stronger? Or making the melee attacks scale from INT instead of STR? It's a joke how RDM is doing less damage then a BRD, which is the job with the most utility in the game.

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by LysLuc

The point I want to get across is that SE should just nerf BRD and MCH a lot but in a fair way, not how they're doing this right now since BRD is gonna get access to so much crit and just turn in to a 100% must have job, especially with a DRG or SCH and MCH is gonna be eating the dust and sitting around.

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Agreed. And that includes DRG + NIN too.

I can't help but wonder where SE gets their numbers to think MCH needed a nerf, but not BRD.

I also could've swore that they said MCH was going to be getting boosted personal DPS to compensate for the hypercharge nerf, but there isn't anything in the finalized patch notes.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I also could've swore that they said MCH was going to be getting boosted personal DPS to compensate for the hypercharge nerf, but there isn't anything in the finalized patch notes.

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Fan-made mistranslation.

To be honest, that 1% Hypercharge buff with Patch 4.15 was never the right move. It just make MCH even more META. It would be better to slightly increase the potency of only one skill, but thats only my opinion. I guess SE knew they messed up and fixed it again.

I kinda believe that the new gear and its higher stats will scale much higher for MCH than any other classes. Thats why SE nerfed Hypercharge to pretend making MCH too strong like it was at the end of Heavensward. Maybe its just a personal feeling but MCH was kinda weak at the beginning of v1.0 and getting very strong until 4.2.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I can't help but wonder where SE gets their numbers to think MCH needed a nerf, but not BRD.

I also could've swore that they said MCH was going to be getting boosted personal DPS to compensate for the hypercharge nerf, but there isn't anything in the finalized patch notes.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

Fan-made mistranslation.

To be honest, that 1% Hypercharge buff with Patch 4.15 was never the right move. It just make MCH even more META. It would be better to slightly increase the potency of only one skill, but thats only my opinion. I guess SE knew they messed up and fixed it again.

I kinda believe that the new gear and its higher stats will scale much higher for MCH than any other classes. Thats why SE nerfed Hypercharge to pretend making MCH too strong like it was at the end of Heavensward. Maybe its just a personal feeling but MCH was kinda weak at the beginning of v1.0 and getting very strong until 4.2.

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MCH did not get nerfed. The reason why they lowered Hypercharge back to 5% is because they also fixed a bug affecting turret delay that has been present since the start of SB. This essentially increases turret damage by roughly 20-25% and totally covers the 1% HC nerf. MCH will remain as strong as before, but some of its raid damage contribution will move to personal dps instead.

The line you're looking for under Resolved issues is the following:
-An issue wherein the machinist’s Rook Autoturret and Bishop Autoturret would not attack at equal intervals.

My original bug report.

I have a hard time imagining that BRD isn't going end up significantly stronger then MCH towards the end of SB without some kind of nerf as they're effectively double dipping on crit scaling because of getting extra Repertoire procs on from it.

Anyway still thinking that gauge bar it takes too long to reload after overheat. 20sec can be reduced at 10sec. We are just loosing 20sec of good DPS.

Since the launch of the 4.2, I wonder if I will not pass from MCH to BRD main...
I mean, clearly not, MCH isn't a bad dps. Even with this nerf, it's still a good dps.

But all of those QoL issues are boring me.


Clipping between GCD? even at 2.47 sec, check.
Ping dependant? Too much, check.
Too punishing? Forgot Reloading even for 1 GCD, you have to delay your burst. Forgot to replace your turret because of this little debuff on your bar, check. Why not putting a "Turret icon" to the ATH?
Quick Reload isn't counted because of lag / clip and you're spamming a GCD to not loose anymore time and you go to OH.
And I don't understand why they haven't another buff like BRD. Why MCH can't have something to help healer like an Esuna (don't know the name of the BRD's one), and why BRD got a nice AOE rotation and MCH is like: pew pew until you need TP, ammo whenever it's up?

This is all of that makes me wonder about something: did they really want to have a MCH in this game?
Like DRK, RDM, MNK... They are some jobs that seems put aside, and you have some other jobs, like NIN, DRG, WAR... That are always highlighted...

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

Anyway still thinking that gauge bar it takes too long to reload after overheat. 20sec can be reduced at 10sec. We are just loosing 20sec of good DPS.

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10. You lose 10.

You use Barrel Stabilizer to go from 0 to 50.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

10. You lose 10.

You use Barrel Stabilizer to go from 0 to 50.

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Meaning that the recovery time after overheating must be reduced from 20sec (10+10) with 10sec (5+5).

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

Meaning that the recovery time after overheating must be reduced from 20sec (10+10) with 10sec (5+5).

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Recovery from overheating is 10 seconds. As soon as overheat ends, you pop Gauss Barrel and Barrel Stabilizer together, putting you back at 50.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Recovery from overheating is 10 seconds. As soon as overheat ends, you pop Gauss Barrel and Barrel Stabilizer together, putting you back at 50.

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It's exactly what I'm doing! Can't see better option right now!

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Originally Posted by AlvinOwl

It's exactly what I'm doing! Can't see better option right now!

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yknow overheating gives you INCREASED damage right? that means "recovery" is the 10 seconds after overheat, it wont count the 10 seconds of overheat because thats where you want to be for your dps.and the 10 seocnds of recovery is to balance out the overheated wildfire rapid fire burst you just squeezed into what we can hope was a trick attack. mch is still strong, you just need to know how to play it effectively, and hope somethjng doesnt mess up buff alignment

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

I'd love to play MCH if I could pull off any kind of a reasonable opener/Overheat rotation with my 180-200 latency, but alas...

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Seriously. MCH 3.X was my most favourite class in the game, it was still hard back then, but WF had 15 seconds duration so it was more lenient than now. You had a lot of time to fit in almost all your 0GCDs without resorting to double weave everything and under RF. Now it's delay something for at least half a second and you lose both WF and Overheat buffs. Old WF used to be fun and it was very strong. Now it just feels like a responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Alexalibur

Now it just feels like a responsibility.

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I won't say it is a responsabity cause is a game. But of course he deserves a completely rework for a better rotations & dps