Can we replace Silent Dusk?

I'm not sure if its just me but I've never managed to use it very effectively. I feel scholars would be better served with some kind of damage buff or the like. what do y'all think?

Scholar already has Chain Stratagem and Fey Wind. It's strong enough.
Another damage buff would make scholar overpowered.

Silent dusk is indeed extremely situationnal, but i feel like they don't change it because scholar already has a lot of tool at his disposal.

Yes please. Give something that makes Selene even close to Eos in utility because right now, Selene is a pretty bad.

What about changing it to that solo shield skill we've been asking for for a while.

Changing it to a shield wouldn't do much best option for that would be tweak covenant to mitigate physical as well as magical.

Selenes real issues cone from caress being on such song cooldown and dusk being useless.

So ideally what they need to do is slash the recast on caress make it more functional and then replace dusk with something different.

Maybe a mini contagion style thing. Reset dots /shadow flare. Or perhaps a small buff to direct hit rate or sonething

I support a change. I've tried to use it and almost every time it ends up too late because she wasn't close enough (and needed to move in closer) and there isn't much indication as to whether she will be in immediate range or not.
The other time is happens is because she just cast something (like embrace) and still has her GCD from it. Not only will it not cast it, it won't even queue it.

Sure that Embrace GCD is only 3 seconds, but being late by even 1 second can mean the difference between a boss/hunt being able to use a skill or not.

I wouldn't mind if they kept it if they increased its range to 30y and made it not affected by previous cast (essentially giving her an oGCD)

Silent Dusk's broken reliability is a huge reason why Selene is so under-used. Her AoE Esuna is really the only reason you'd have to bring her out over Eos.

I worry though if we gave her something akin to AST's Balance or Spear instead of Silent Dusk, we'd see the opposite problem happen, with Eos getting left behind in favor of Selene's massive jump in raid utility.

what if it was a stun instead? those are much more widely useful than a silence. idk though since it would still be lame against bosses.

I believe Silent Dusk is a SCHs only ability to interrupt a mob. Sadly, it's underused because it can only interrupt spell-type abilities; other jobs have the ability to silence and have easier access to it; it shares the cooldown with Whispering Dawn, and Eos is just better because she brings more useful utility.

My proposition, and I know several will think I'm crazy, but I say get rid of the two fairy mechanic. The pet hotbar has four vacant slots. Eliminate Eos/Selene, and just give us Lily who has all of their abilities. This will likely never happen, and I suppose that's ok. Selene will simply remain my soloing fairy, or my 'we-are-all-overgeared-for-this-dungeon' fairy.

Selene could probably just use a general re-work. That said since Scholar is in a really solid place and has tons of tools even locked into Eos, I can't say improving Selene is at the top of my wish list.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Silent dusk is indeed extremely situationnal, but i feel like they don't change it because scholar already has a lot of tool at his disposal.

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It's not situational, it's useless. If you have her on sic she'll blow it on uninterruptible casts, and if you have it her on obey, who knows if she'll even get it off? Recognize that a spell is being cast, that the spell can be interrupted, command Selene, wait for Selene to recognize you commanded her, wait for her GCD to reset, apply the silence, then hope to god that the server even registers the silence even applying before the server says the cast is finished. Unless we see a massive improvement in pet responsiveness or we start seeing 5+ second cast times, no group will ever even consider Silent Dusk.

Selene is broken as is. 100% Fey Wind + Chain adds literally more(or equal bc rng)rDPS than an AST. Fey Wind alone gives the entire party the equivalent of 500ish Skill/Spell speed for 30 seconds every minute. Anything they do to Selene could destroy Eos. As of rn, they're fairly balanced, Eos being extremely useful for healing and Selene adding crazy dps.

But...the Silence is very useless. I am just not sure what they could add instead that wouldn't break fairy balance.

I mean I've always preferred Selene because I'm lazy and I can more or less just leave her on sic and not worry, whereas Eos is an idiot that blows all her cooldowns at once because the tank took 5 damage. But I also don't do anything more challenging than 24 mans on Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I mean I've always preferred Selene because I'm lazy and I can more or less just leave her on sic and not worry, whereas Eos is an idiot that blows all her cooldowns at once because the tank took 5 damage. But I also don't do anything more challenging than 24 mans on Scholar.

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That's because it is on you to put Eos on obey, and micromanage her. Whether you are running 4-man, 8-man, or 24-man, you are holding back the utility your job brings to the table. If you are ok with that, then the lazy player you call yourself is exactly the impression you leave on those you group with.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That's because it is on you to put Eos on obey, and micromanage her. Whether you are running 4-man, 8-man, or 24-man, you are holding back the utility your job brings to the table. If you are ok with that, then the lazy player you call yourself is exactly the impression you leave on those you group with.

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Everyone heals at their own pace. just because they don't adhere to meta doesn't give you the right to be rude. try to be positive and encourage them to do better than being a crabby patty

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Originally Posted by Gemina

That's because it is on you to put Eos on obey, and micromanage her. Whether you are running 4-man, 8-man, or 24-man, you are holding back the utility your job brings to the table. If you are ok with that, then the lazy player you call yourself is exactly the impression you leave on those you group with.

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I know that. Which is why I prefer Selene. I haven't actively held back any of my parties by this. I know that if I need the extra healing, I'll pull out Eos and put her on obey, but these moments are rare. Please don't be rude.

I'm not being rude. And common courtesy towards the other members in your group isn't conforming to the meta. What I find rude is holding back utility when you're more than capable. The complacent attitude of, "Meh, this isn't savage" or "it's just 24-man". You're in a PUG and know full well others are trying, but for some reason, it's OK for you to hold back. You admitted yourself that you're being lazy. I am only confirming that will be the impression you leave as well.

I mean technically Fey Wind is contributing more to a party than having Eos out when all she really provides is extra unneeded healing in the content i do but

o

k

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I mean technically Fey Wind is contributing more to a party than having Eos out when all she really provides is extra unneeded healing in the content i do but

o

k

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If there's no damage going out whatsoever, then yeah that's a fair statement.

I think the point being said here is that you'll get a better overall throughput by dumping as much of your healing duty on Eos and doing the damage yourself. Using Whispering Dawn purely as a tank heal is very potent.

Of course, this is dependant on that sort of play being your cup of tea. If it's not, then eh, it's hardly a drama.

I like to do DPS on scholar but I find that even without Whispering Dawn etc I don't need to pump out too much extra healing manually, again, largely because of the difficulty level of the content I do. I'd certainly never advocate not using Eos if you need the healing, and definitely not leaving her on Obey.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Selene is quite as useless as people make her out to be. Silent Dusk definitely needs to be replaced with something useful but there's a certain level of histrionics I see (not so much on the forums, but in conversations I have in game) that make it seem like if you have Selene out you're not gonna clear content. Which is not true lol. It just works out well for me that Selene isn't that garbage and unless I need to save the cleanse for some specific thing, I can more or less just leave her on Obey and focus on what I myself am doing.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Selene is quite as useless as people make her out to be. Silent Dusk definitely needs to be replaced with something useful but there's a certain level of histrionics I see (not so much on the forums, but in conversations I have in game) that make it seem like if you have Selene out you're not gonna clear content.

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Aye agreed, I think the reality lies somewhere in the middle really.

She certainly isn't useless, she still has Embrace and Union after all, and a DPS buff is a DPS buff no matter how you look at it.

On the flipside, the DPS buff has also historically been highly overrated in the past when in reality, it's a fairly minor buff all told. Nothing like as impactful as Chain for example (which arguably could/should have been a Selene ability in the first place, great work job design team :rolleyes:).

One amusing titbit I will add tho. Go back to early SCOB where I was having to progress on SCH as per the norm. Selene was viewed as the absolute go to Fairy and many people would view you as a total scrub if you dared to use Eos. I posted some math and examples on reddit showing my opinion that actually, leaning on Eos's additional healing and simply DPSing yourself was actually more productive overall. To say I got laughed into downvote oblivion over that one would be an understatement, it seems that I got the last laugh tho, especially once the woefully misleading tooltips got corrected :o

I think Silent Dusk would be useful if Selene immediately stopped whatever she was doing (90% of the time it's casting Embrace) and executed the player's command right away. Lack of responsiveness from both fairies is a huge reason why I don't like SCH as much as WHM or AST- it feels like I'm fighting my pet instead of just being able to focus on the fight. The silence is more situational than helpful, certainly. But I never use it as-is because Selene's too busy shaking her butt to cast Embrace when it's really needed. I'd rather see that issue addressed first and see what improvements can be made afterwards.

Honestly, if Silent Dusk was an instant mob stun instead of being utterly broken by the pet AI and being a simple magic only interrupt, we could actually pick and utilize both fairies to our preference in the same way a Noct SCH can do anything despite the meta.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I like to do DPS on scholar but I find that even without Whispering Dawn etc I don't need to pump out too much extra healing manually, again, largely because of the difficulty level of the content I do. I'd certainly never advocate not using Eos if you need the healing, and definitely not leaving her on Obey.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think Selene is quite as useless as people make her out to be. Silent Dusk definitely needs to be replaced with something useful but there's a certain level of histrionics I see (not so much on the forums, but in conversations I have in game) that make it seem like if you have Selene out you're not gonna clear content. Which is not true lol. It just works out well for me that Selene isn't that garbage and unless I need to save the cleanse for some specific thing, I can more or less just leave her on Obey and focus on what I myself am doing.

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It's a fair statement to bring out Selene when so little healing is needed. At this point, it can be handled with your oGCDs and good aetherflow management. I do this too, and I'm quite sure other SCHs do as well. My issue wasn't with which fairy you choose to use, it's with being complacent in content you're running with other people. Even when using Selene, it is better to have her on Obey. She's just the less detrimental of the two leaving her on Sic. SCHs who leave their fairies on Sic is actually more indicative of a dislike towards fairy micromanagement than being lazy. You're still adding damage while taking care of healing, so I don't think you're lazy. All I am saying is that it is common courtesy to do more when you're capable of it.

Fey Wind and Fey Caress are useful, but man, Silent Dusk is useless. Maybe if it did damage as well the skill would be useful.

Honestly, I think that'd be the best way to balance the fairies without changing it up too much. Make Silent Dusk do damage with maybe 60-70 potency plus the silence debuff. (Also make Fey Wind do a 5% skill/spell speed buff. Lower the duration to 20s if that makes it more balanced.)

Making it a DoT was always an option, it's just a weird tweak to make when Selene is pitched as the "support" type faerie. Eos fulfills her role as the straight-up healer fairy far better.

I really wonder why SE won't change Selene's skills since we've been complaining about Silent Dusk for a few years now. AST cards have been modded several times, yet our buff/debuff options have not.

Because outside of that, Scholar still has everything he needs to fulfill its job fantastically.
Ast had a lot of problem during all Heavensward because he had less healing and his buff couldn't compete with White Mage's power.

Honestly, yes it is useless and Eos is way better but Scholar doesn't need anything more so...

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Because outside of that, Scholar still has everything he needs to fulfill its job fantastically.
Ast had a lot of problem during all Heavensward because he had less healing and his buff couldn't compete with White Mage's power.

Honestly, yes it is useless and Eos is way better but Scholar doesn't need anything more so...

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Probably. But, AST cards got tweaked for SB, too, and for the better. Right now, the biggest issue they face is Spire being a fodder card, but that's still a better place that Selene's Silent Dusk.

I still stand by Silent Dusk being made instant, not reliant on the need to interrupt Embrace. It would be less of a buff, more a full on repair of the skill. If we could simply allow it's utility to be used, Selene would be fine!

(Although I would like each faerie type to get a separate Aetherpact effect, oh well.)

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Because outside of that, Scholar still has everything he needs to fulfill its job fantastically.
Ast had a lot of problem during all Heavensward because he had less healing and his buff couldn't compete with White Mage's power.

Honestly, yes it is useless and Eos is way better but Scholar doesn't need anything more so...

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AST was matching WHM by 3.3, and was murdering it in 3.4. It was also the strongest in 4.0, until they fixed it and actually got healer balance pretty decent.

I do think SCH is the best healer at the moment, but it's far from being broken or OP. It's not leagues ahead, and it's not a raid necessity like it used to be. There are a lot of WHM/AST comps still out there so I don't agree with this notion of not giving a job any attention just because it's doing well. Best healer or not, there is no excuse for Selene to be that irrelevant. She's not just some niche ability, she's one of only two aspects of the Faerie that we get to use. I'm sure WHM and AST could get buffs too, but this is not the thread for that.

My point is, i'm afraid of how they could change Silent Dusk.
Cause if they give it a powerful change, I fear that they'll nerf Scholar too much in another patch because they'll feel he's too strong.

That's why I'm mixed.
I'd really like it to be a useful tool, but when you see how the dev team balance jobs sometimes... ^^"

(in other words Kabzy, i'm not saying classes that perform well shouldn't have attention)

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I think Silent Dusk would be useful if Selene immediately stopped whatever she was doing (90% of the time it's casting Embrace) and executed the player's command right away.

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While I do love SCH and our pets, I can definitely agree with the sentiment. Honestly, Silent Dusk would be much more useful if we could get it off reliably. There's too much time between basic reaction on the player's part, issuing the command, Selene finishing her current action, and then Selene getting the spell off for it to be seen as a reliable interrupt. And the reality is, all the fair spells suffer from these issues, it's just the fact the interrupting a spell is so extremely time sensitive to be useful, that Silent Dusk the one that gets the most attention. Improving pet responsiveness across the board (for SCH and SMN) would be the right way to go that would ultimately not introduce major imbalances.

Selene needs to replace everything except embrace.

Lev. 1 Fey Caress
Ability- 25 Sec Recast
Remove one detrimental status effect from a single party member.
Additional Effect: Restores HP. Cure Potency 200

Lev. 40 Fey Wind
Ability - 60 Sec Recast
Reduce both Weapon and Spell Cast/Recast Time and Auto Attack delay by 2% for 60 seconds.

Lev. 20 Clamoring Dusk
Spell - 2 Sec Cast/ 60 Sec Recast
Restore HP to all party members within 20 yalms.
Cure Potency 300.

This way Rouse would be effective for both pets with no useless Silence and terribly under utilized group cleanse either.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Nothing like as impactful as Chain for example (which arguably could/should have been a Selene ability in the first place, great work job design team*)

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Though I already gave an idea about Silent Dusk, though I could add more input, I wanted to point this out. Chain Strategem is essentially Libra which is usually a SCH skill. But since we already know the targets HP and weaknesses are non-existent, it functions as a crit buff instead.