Should healing be this difficult while leveling?

Heya, so currently I'm leveling Whm which is the last healer for me to level to 70 and I'm feeling like I may be missing something. With Sch I had it when I leveled Smn to 70 so I don't have experience on it and with Ast, it was my first healer to 70 and at the time I thought the problem was just me having not been a healer for such a long time and having to relearn as well as learning Ast. Now I'm leveling Whm which was my main healer back in ARR and once again I'm feeling overwhelmed like I was with Ast.

I just did Sirensong and had a War tank who used Defiance on pulls but swapped to Deliverance afterwards for the rest of the pull and I was having to expend all my mp just to keep him alive on trash packs. The only time I got to dps on trash packs was on the very first pull of the dungeon and the last part with the 2 dogs and the one single mob. The one time I tried to dps outside of those instances, the tank dropped like a rock so after that I had to go nearly empty on every pull to keep him alive. Boss fights were fine and things felt normal, but when it came to the trash, my goodness I felt like I was horribly missing something.

I know at 70 I still struggle with trying to heal, dps and use cards with Ast, but with Sch I do feel like I'm able to heal and dps fairly competently, but now with Whm and I'm sitting here wondering what I'm missing that makes Whm the easy mode that I see people say it is.

For starters, how much HP did the tank have? That would give us an indication of the estimated item level. How well equipped are you yourself? In particular the weapon comes in mind. Were any cooldowns used? Did the warrior hop into Deliverance at the very start or only for the last bit? Did he dodge AoEs?

Aside from that here are some general ideas:
Holy is a pseudo Hallowed Ground; You can stun groups for 7 seconds total. Just use Tetragrammaton or Benediction in between or after if you're worried
Don't be shy to use Benediction. Benediction that is always off CD doesn't heal at all.
Use assize whenever. You could wait a few seconds with it if there are the right reasons for it (like one lily away from the last one)
Don't forget about Thin Air. Ideally you'd want to use it for expensive spells like Holy, but if you're that starved for MP, you could squeeze out extra spells out of "thin air" like that
Are you using your entire kit? From my own experience I noticed that healers tend to forget about Asylum, Presence of Mind, and Benediction

Yes the Leveling dungeons in the expansions don't have super soft enemies. It's normal for healer to be spending more time healing than dpsing on a big pull, especially if the tank isn't doing the best they can. If nothing else you can help dps a little with assize and swiftcast-holy without spending any cast time on it. 50/60/70 dungeon big pulls are a lot softer because our item level eventually grows way beyond the minimum the dungeon was designed for, while leveling dungeons have a tighter sync forever.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

For starters, how much HP did the tank have? That would give us an indication of the estimated item level. How well equipped are you yourself? In particular the weapon comes in mind. Were any cooldowns used? Did the warrior hop into Deliverance at the very start or only for the last bit? Did he dodge AoEs?

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If I remember, the tank had about 38k hp approximate when he was in Defiance stance. I'm in all 270 Shire gear and the 270 Proto-Ultimate Ring of Healing. I'm using the 270 Shire staff. I used Assize, Tetragrammaton, and Lucid Dream on cooldown. At the very start. He would pull with Defiance and once he stopped running, immediately swap to Deliverance and stayed in that stance until all the mobs were dead and then go back to Defiance for the next pull, rinse and repeat. From what I could tell, he dodge some of them at least, not for sure if he dodge all of them.

To me 38k in Defiance seems a bit low for a level 61 WAR, gear was most likely one problem.

The other problem was him using Deliverance during big pulls, it's usually more beneficial to stay in Defiance, since a WHM who is able to DPS brings more group DPS than a warrior in Deliverance without any healer DPS. That said, I suspect he was also rotating his remaining mitigation tools poorly.

healing a dungeon, especially a leveling one, is never the same if you dootie finder it. first barrier to overcome, when you are a healer - realize the potential of mistakes you can do that make run wipy or just plain terrible for the group. playing a tank also helps to understand the usual reasons why everything goes into hell due to tank mistakes or overconfidence in his own potential to stay alive on big packs even when backed with perfect healing. sortin out your own bads and group's bads will help you stay true to healer role without breaking your own confidence in what you do

Personally, i don’t think that it’s a case of leveling dungeons having healing requirements that are too high, but rather expert dungeons have healing requirements that are too low once people are geared up.

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

but with Sch I do feel like I'm able to heal and dps fairly competently, but now with Whm and I'm sitting here wondering what I'm missing that makes Whm the easy mode that I see people say it is.

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Because Scholar have a versatile gameplay.
Constant healing output with the fairy, mitigation, instant cast heal with aetherflow abiliies. You may feel like the tank take less damage this way.

But as a WHM, you have the regens and only 3 instant heal with at least 1min of CD.(the shield come at lvl70).

The first mistake to don't make is to spam Cure II. Cause it will cost a lot of mana, especially if don't use lucid dreawing and assize correctly.
Always prefer using a regen + cure. And if incoming damages are strong, you can use cure II (cure i has a chance to proc Cure II at free cost).
Be sure your tank always have a regen once he took aggro. You can couple it with Asyluym which is another regen. You can even boost the power of your regen with largess.
Use Tetra once the tank lost around 30% of his HP to make a good profit of it.
Use lucid dreaming around 80% of your mana.
Use Benediction if you feel you won't have the time to cast a Cure
Use Assize whenever it's up cause damages + mana + healing.
Otherwise, you can swifcast + holy. It will stun all ennemis, and it'll give you 6s to breath and healing your tank, put some regens...

There's many way as a whm to handle big pulls.
But, yes, with low ilvl gear, you'll spend more time healing at first in these dungeons, it's perfectly normal.
They hit pretty hard.

Anyway, try to use every abilites you (but not at once).
One moment, couple your Cure and regen with largesse... then once largesse has ended, asylum and tetra... once you don't have any oGCD remaining, you can use the swifcast + holy strategy.

I think you should have less difficulties this way.

Also, I've noticed that the lilly system work super well in those kind of instances were trash mob hit like trucks and every one is undergeared as you will certainly use single target healing spells a lot. Minding your OGCD usage to have them come back sooner can be a life saver.
The idea is to use the longer cooldown first so you can use them multiple time during the same pull and keep divine benison when you only have 1 lilly. Also, pay attention the what kinf of CD the tank is using. For exemple using holy to mitigate the damage is good, but using it when sentinel will lessen the effect.

WHM clearly is the best dungeon healer, and maybe one of the best dungeon class period.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

The first mistake to don't make is to spam Cure II. Cause it will cost a lot of mana, especially if don't use lucid dreawing and assize correctly.
Always prefer using a regen + cure. And if incoming damages are strong, you can use cure II (cure i has a chance to proc Cure II at free cost).
Be sure your tank always have a regen once he took aggro. You can couple it with Asyluym which is another regen. You can even boost the power of your regen with largess.

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Trying to level WHM myself, and this was something I was wondering myself. How you're supposed to use Asylum is a mystery to me. There's never really any pulls that have large AoE like that and the DD jobs only get hit with unavoidables or if they're stupid, so it really only would help the tank out, so I end up just not using it. You're really supposed to just not care that it doesn't help AoE cures and just use it as a regen for the tank? Seems strange, but I guess if I'm not using it for, well, anything it would make sense.

Also, uh, Cure II's a mistake? For me it seems like the tank's HP ping-pongs every pull outside of the first one. Maybe it's just Bardam's Mettle doing it's thing, maybe not, but sometimes it just doesn't seem like Cure spam + regen would be enough.

Yeah, don't hesitate to use asylum as an additionnal HoT. It can be used after party wide damage fi you want, but's less effective that way. It shines a bit more in some specific raid situations.

Cure 2 is strong when the tank is loosing HP really fast, but try using some cure 1 if you can. There's a chance to get a free cure 2 proc by using cure 1, wich make your MP easier to manage.
I wouldn't go as far as to call it an error, but not over using it is generally a good idea. I can make the tank hold longer, especially if the pull tend to get a bit too long.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

Trying to level WHM myself, and this was something I was wondering myself. How you're supposed to use Asylum is a mystery to me. There's never really any pulls that have large AoE like that and the DD jobs only get hit with unavoidables or if they're stupid, so it really only would help the tank out, so I end up just not using it. You're really supposed to just not care that it doesn't help AoE cures and just use it as a regen for the tank? Seems strange, but I guess if I'm not using it for, well, anything it would make sense.

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I think it was intended as an AoE recovery tool, but DPS won't stay in it reliably and Medica II/Assize/Cure III already do that. So yes, Asylum works best if you drop it on the tank and treat it like an extra Regen. The tank is likely to stay in it, at least.

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Also, uh, Cure II's a mistake? For me it seems like the tank's HP ping-pongs every pull outside of the first one. Maybe it's just Bardam's Mettle doing it's thing, maybe not, but sometimes it just doesn't seem like Cure spam + regen would be enough.

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Bardam's Mettle trash hits like trucks that are filled with smaller trucks. That is where you can tell real fast is a tank is in Shire gear still or if they've gotten drops from Bardam's already, because the defense stat differences are huge. It's IMO one of the hardest dungeons to heal in the entire game, and far harder than any expert. Ideally you don't want to Cure II spam in there, but you might have to. Do remember that you can Swiftcast Holy to stun the entire trash pack, Assize, Tetra, and Benediction should all be used to help out, and at that level you can get Divine Benison. If you're spamming Cure, you have the lilies to use it.

If MP is an issue, try to mix Cure and Cure II to get some Freecure procs. They help. That kinda ceases to be much of an issue at 70.

Usually I just open up pulls with Regen > Aero III > Thin Air > Holy x3, assuming the tank doesn't drop like a rock while I'm busy casting Aero III. I figured that's how you were supposed to do it because I see WHMs do it all the time in Expert.

After the stuns wear off I tend to get to where I'm alternating Cure II and Aero to try to keep my dots rolling. Thinking about it I had far less of an issue in Shisui of the Violet Tides(Except for that one Warrior who pulled the first two packs then swapped to his dps stance, that one I didn't manage to keep alive because I didn't notice he did that, so I was still trying to apply Aeros and he lost like half of his HP in an instant, and I couldn't get him back up, but I think that wasn't my fault so much), so I suppose once I get to Doma Castle Cure + Regen might be enough to continue dotting things.

One small note I've learned, Cure III's splash healing range doesn't seem to be very large. I remember on the last boss of Bardam's, I stood inside of the bird when everyone was still in the melee hitbox, cast Cure III on myself, and it hit no one. That suggests to me Cure III's not really useful outside of more organized raiding, unless I'm missing something.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

One small note I've learned, Cure III's splash healing range doesn't seem to be very large. I remember on the last boss of Bardam's, I stood inside of the bird when everyone was still in the melee hitbox, cast Cure III on myself, and it hit no one. That suggests to me Cure III's not really useful outside of more organized raiding, unless I'm missing something.

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Cure III is my go-to for healing damage from stack markers. It seems to have about the range of the yellow circle for a stack marker too. In pugged casual content I rarely use it for anything else though, better to Medica/II and know I'm getting everyone.

My 'opener' for a large pull involves an Aero III if I think it will hit more than two enemies at the start of the pull, Aero cast on enemies during the run, Swiftcast+Holy as enemies are grouped, Regen the tank and drop Asylum, an Aero III to get the whole group dotted then Cleric Stance+Presence of Mind, Holy, Thin Air+Assize into a Holy spam. Tetra will be used on the tank as my go-to initial heal.

The first Aero III can be omitted if it isn't a very long run, I mostly use that for megapulls like the first boss to second boss pull in Ala Mhigo where those dots will have some time to tick.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

Trying to level WHM myself, and this was something I was wondering myself. How you're supposed to use Asylum is a mystery to me. There's never really any pulls that have large AoE like that and the DD jobs only get hit with unavoidables or if they're stupid, so it really only would help the tank out, so I end up just not using it. You're really supposed to just not care that it doesn't help AoE cures and just use it as a regen for the tank? Seems strange, but I guess if I'm not using it for, well, anything it would make sense.

Also, uh, Cure II's a mistake? For me it seems like the tank's HP ping-pongs every pull outside of the first one. Maybe it's just Bardam's Mettle doing it's thing, maybe not, but sometimes it just doesn't seem like Cure spam + regen would be enough.

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Cure II is not a mistake.My point was : ONLY spamming Cure II and ignoring the rest of your tool is a mistake ^^
Besides, is you feel like the damages are strong, of course, you'll prefer using Cure II over Cure. But what makes Cure a solid argument (at least at the very beginning of the pull) is that it costs less and can proc Cure II at free cost. Since the OP seemed to have mp issus, that's why I said that.

You don't need aoe situation to use Asyluym. Yes, it is aoe, but it can also be used as single target HoT. And the best example for that is dungeon where only the tank takes damages. Asylum is a free oGCD so it's better to use it.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

One small note I've learned, Cure III's splash healing range doesn't seem to be very large. I remember on the last boss of Bardam's, I stood inside of the bird when everyone was still in the melee hitbox, cast Cure III on myself, and it hit no one. That suggests to me Cure III's not really useful outside of more organized raiding, unless I'm missing something.

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Cure III range is the same as Asylyum if you want to have an idea.
Cure III is useful when you have to aoe, and everyone is at the range of your spell. It is indeed used more on Primals fight and raid.
One Cure III is less expensive than two Medica, and is faster to cast. That's what make it really good.

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

Usually I just open up pulls with Regen > Aero III > Thin Air > Holy x3

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Generally I do a pull like this (once the pull has settled some what): Largesse+Regen > Asylum > Cleric Stance+Holy > Swiftcast+Aero III > Assize > Presence of Mind+Thin Air > Holy spam until tank drops to about 50% > Tetra > Holy spam until tank drops to about 20-30% > Benediction > Cure II/Holy/Stone IV as needed.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

One Cure III is less expensive than two Medica, and is faster to cast. That's what make it really good.

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I'd like to pitch in here:
One Cure III is 550 potency for 2280 MP or 0.24 potency for each MP spend
One Medica II is 700 potency for 2040 MP or 0.34 potency for each MP spend

If it's a single hit AoE, one Medica II is better and just let the healing over time do it's work. If you need to top them off before you enjoy the full benefits from Medica II, Cure III would be better. If we go into detail, we can include Plenary Indulgence. If the party can survive with 200 potency, two or three ticks, and Plenary indulgence, just throw another Medica after the second AoE that came 6-9 seconds after the first. Or if you have the time before the next AoE: do a Medica after Medica II and use Plenary Indulgence to patch it up a bit and let the healing over time do it's thing.

Cure III is primarily useful for it's speed. But that does come at a significantly greater MP cost. Content where there is back-to-back AoE where players have to stack are rare. I can name two occasions from the top of my head: Final coil of Bahamut Turn 4 (or T13) for Akh Morn and Final steps of Faith (Nidhogg). Even though T13 is an odd one of the two, using Cure III to heal two players isn't necessarily a bad thing. Two Cure IIs costs 2400 MP and one Cure III costs 2280 MP and you save one GCD. Yes, there's 150 potency difference between Cure II and Cure III. But just patch it up with Plenary Indulgence if you have no reason to save it. Or simply the natural MP recovery do it's thing. Which is 2% every 3 seconds of their maximum HP. Although I guess there's no plenary indulgence at level 60.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Cure II is not a mistake.My point was : ONLY spamming Cure II and ignoring the rest of your tool is a mistake ^^
Besides, is you feel like the damages are strong, of course, you'll prefer using Cure II over Cure. But what makes Cure a solid argument (at least at the very beginning of the pull) is that it costs less and can proc Cure II at free cost. Since the OP seemed to have mp issus, that's why I said that.

You don't need aoe situation to use Asyluym. Yes, it is aoe, but it can also be used as single target HoT. And the best example for that is dungeon where only the tank takes damages. Asylum is a free oGCD so it's better to use it.

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Ooooooh okay. Admittedly I kinda skimmed over the OP when I was mostly looking for helpful tips for healing, saw the "The first mistake to don't make is to spam Cure II." line and went "Aw hell have I been doing this wrong the whole time?" and got a little worried. So my bad? I ran Doma a lot today and have been trying to use Cure instead of only Cure II's, and it's working. MP wasn't really an issue for me before, but it's gotten better still now. The Asylum suggestion was great to, when Regen/Medica II/Asylum is rolling on the tank I basically just get to cast Stone the whole time, though I don't Medica II just for the tank. Thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

Cure III range is the same as Asylyum if you want to have an idea.
Cure III is useful when you have to aoe, and everyone is at the range of your spell. It is indeed used more on Primals fight and raid.
One Cure III is less expensive than two Medica, and is faster to cast. That's what make it really good.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Cure III is my go-to for healing damage from stack markers. It seems to have about the range of the yellow circle for a stack marker too. In pugged casual content I rarely use it for anything else though, better to Medica/II and know I'm getting everyone.

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Now THIS is good info! I've had no idea how I was supposed to use Cure III cause I couldn't really get it to do what I wanted it to do, so a range approximation, why Cure III is good to use if you can, and a practical use suggestion is really helpful.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

My 'opener' for a large pull involves an Aero III if I think it will hit more than two enemies at the start of the pull

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This looks like a good idea. It didn't occur to me to try to fire off an Aero III on the pull. I typically run along it and Aero things, but if I had, I would have thought that getting off an Aero III at roughly the same time the tank makes the pull would cause aggro problems. That not being the case, this is a great idea.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

Generally I do a pull like this (once the pull has settled some what): Largesse+Regen > Asylum > Cleric Stance+Holy > Swiftcast+Aero III > Assize > Presence of Mind+Thin Air > Holy spam until tank drops to about 50% > Tetra > Holy spam until tank drops to about 20-30% > Benediction > Cure II/Holy/Stone IV as needed.

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Largesse boosts regens? I don't know why but this never occurs to me until someone points it out. I mained SCH for about a year starting around 2.4 or 2.5 and didn't realize Rouse boosted Whispering Dawn until a few months after I changed to MCH main when I was browsing a SCH tips and tricks thread, and I just didn't think Largesse would work on Regen in the same way. Oh well, the more you know I suppose. I try to not be a bad healer, I swear, lol. Looking at this opener, it looks really good and I'll give it a try. Then I'm sad, because not only did I not realize the Largesse thing, I see you listing Presence of Mind and think "What is this Presence of Mind thing?" Turns out it wasn't on my bars at all. Presence of Mind looks like it'll be really helpful. I can think of a few times it would've been nice, like that one time I was in Doma and the tank pulled the 2 packs of 6 mobs immediately after the second boss. It helped the MCH knew how to use Palisade.

Thanks everyone for all the little tips and tricks, I don't really have any more specific questions or things I need advice for. The job forums are really helpful, when I ask questions about things in the healer, tank, and DD sections I tend to get really detailed answers. In this particular case, I got good MP saving advice, advice on how to use two abilities I never use, reminded that one really helpful ability existed, and a tip on a different use for two others. At minimum. You guys are great! Thanks again!

PoM is a really great CD. It can be used for both DPS and healing, though once you get more experience you'll probably never use it for healing.

Largesse does buff Regen, but it doesn't buff Asylum. I just use it as an extra little oomph, and it helps if the tank stood in bad and they need an emergency Cure II early in the pull.

I wanted to point out a few things I forgot to mention. As the tank is pulling the mobs I try to Aero II as many as I can, and I usually cast Eye for an Eye and/or Divine Benison before they start pulling if they are avaliable. Also, Cleric Stance is not required. I just use it because, but it barely makes a difference so if you don't want to use it you aren't losing much of anything.

You're welcome! The forums in general are really helpful and understanding when people ask questions or need advice. Especially when they show such an interest in wanting to be better. :)

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Originally Posted by Spiriel_Basanda

Trying to level WHM myself, and this was something I was wondering myself. How you're supposed to use Asylum is a mystery to me. There's never really any pulls that have large AoE like that and the DD jobs only get hit with unavoidables or if they're stupid, so it really only would help the tank out, so I end up just not using it. You're really supposed to just not care that it doesn't help AoE cures and just use it as a regen for the tank? Seems strange, but I guess if I'm not using it for, well, anything it would make sense.

Also, uh, Cure II's a mistake? For me it seems like the tank's HP ping-pongs every pull outside of the first one. Maybe it's just Bardam's Mettle doing it's thing, maybe not, but sometimes it just doesn't seem like Cure spam + regen would be enough.

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You pretty much nailed it. Asylum benefits mostly the tank. Melee DPS get the HoT as well since they will likely be standing in the Asylum field when executing their combos. In a situation that the OP describes, where the tank is taking a pounding, you should be using Asylum. It is one of three HoTs that can be stacked, and all of them can be boosted with Largesse for ridiculous ticks per second. It's an OGCD and costs no MP, so there really is no reason to not use it unless wanting your lily allocation to go towards another ability, which is a situational thing.

Cure 2 is definitely not a mistake. There are many situational uses for it, but spamming is not one of them. If you have to, to keep a tank alive during a pull, he has taken on more than the group can chew, and/or is not mitigating damage to the best of his ability. LV50+ WHMs have all the tools they need to heal through a big pull. What bars this after this point are players that are under-geared, or just high enough for the instance. This is a common occurrence in leveling dungeons even in the previous expansions since there are always new players, and veteran players leveling alt jobs and characters. There is a lot that factors into how quickly a tank's HP is depleted. Rarely is it the size of the pull, or the level of gear by themselves. It is the level of gear and stats in relation to the size of the pull. The range from my experience has gone from tanks taking a lot of damage just pulling one group of mobs, to tanks not needing any cures whatsoever for a wall-to-wall pull.

In short, don't be surprised if you have to use cure 2 here and there in a leveling dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

snipped for length

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I agree with virtually all of this except I am 99.9% sure Asylum doesn't benefit from Largresse. I know it isn't a big deal, just wanted to chip in. I'd also say aa you become more comfortable with dpsing and managing your MP Cure II can be a great spell to heal with primarily, at least in higher level dungeons, because it's obviously more GCD efficent than Cure. Certainly after Thin Air makes your Holy spam free.

There is a time for each of them but in a dungeon setting I'd say as you gain experience Cure II becomes more and more usable/desirable to use.

To the OP - you're welcome! Happy to help! :D

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I agree with virtually all of this except I am 99.9% sure Asylum doesn't benefit from Largresse. I know it isn't a big deal, just wanted to chip in. I'd also say aa you become more comfortable with dpsing and managing your MP Cure II can be a great spell to heal with primarily, at least in higher level dungeons, because it's obviously more GCD efficent than Cure. Certainly after Thin Air makes your Holy spam free.

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You are correct, and thank you for pointing that out. :) It's never my intention to pass false information.

Cure 2 I left to stating it has multiple situational uses. I felt it was the best way to encompass the use of the skill since the poster I quoted was questioning its usefulness, but didn't ask for specific examples. Cure and Cure 2, I honestly believe it can be one of those abilities the devs can put on the mastery tier they introduced with 4.0. I'll be frank. I don't use cure at all, except when synced below Cure 2's level. The only other time is when I am horsing around and quickly filling up my lily gauge, since this is the MP efficient way to do it. Some potency and MP cost adjustments could easily make this viable.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I'll be frank. I don't use cure at all, except when synced below Cure 2's level.

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Same. Sometimes I'll throw out a Cure if I'm feeling lucky to see if I can score a free Cure II but that rarely pans out and Cure is just so weak. Blah.

I use Cure constantly, even during multi-pulls. The last thing anyone needs is to be pigeon-holed into spamming Cure II. A crit Cure (or using Largesse) puts it to near comparable level of CII (not quite, but it's a meaty heal), uses very little MP and triggers Free-Cure. Using Cure II only was a poor habit that I'm glad to be rid of, though there are obviously situations where you're going to have to consider the bigger Cure by default.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

I use Cure constantly, even during multi-pulls. The last thing anyone needs is to be pigeon-holed into spamming Cure II. A crit Cure (or using Largesse) puts it to near comparable level of CII (not quite, but it's a meaty heal), uses very little MP and triggers Free-Cure. Using Cure II only was a poor habit that I'm glad to be rid of, though there are obviously situations where you're going to have to consider the bigger Cure by default.

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Eeeh... WHM have nearly no issues with MP end game, so MP efficiency is kind of a moot point in easy content. So if you ignore lower MP cost and a possible free Cure II all you are left with is a weaker heal.

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Eeeh... WHM have nearly no issues with MP end game, so MP efficiency is kind of a moot point in easy content. So if you ignore lower MP cost and a possible free Cure II all you are left with is a weaker heal.

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While that is (partially) true -- and I say 'partially' due to still noticing CureII-only WHM's asking my BRD for refreshes -- what happens when this factor changes and everyone is stuck in a Cure II mindset? I didn't post my comment as a means of glorifying MP saving, I posted it because Cure II is still gross overkill when Cure (with or without buffers) can cover 65% of scenarios AND trigger free-cure for your Cure II's anyway. If SE randomly decide to tweak the MP consumption for WHM's, yall gonna suffer more than I will due to finding no real need for Cure II other than emergency situations (which is technically how it should be used anyway).

There's no reason to use Cure II if Cure will get the job done. Cure will spend less MP and possibly give you a free Cure II anyways. If I see a WHM casting a bunch of Cure IIs I'm going to assume they're feeling panicked. There's a place for Cure in healing.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

While that is (partially) true -- and I say 'partially' due to still noticing CureII-only WHM's asking my BRD for refreshes -- what happens when this factor changes and everyone is stuck in a Cure II mindset? I didn't post my comment as a means of glorifying MP saving, I posted it because Cure II is still gross overkill when Cure (with or without buffers) can cover 65% of scenarios AND trigger free-cure for your Cure II's anyway. If SE randomly decide to tweak the MP consumption for WHM's, yall gonna suffer more than I will due to finding no real need for Cure II other than emergency situations (which is technically how it should be used anyway).

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What determines if Cure 2 is overkill? I can't think of any situations where it is overkill unless it over heals. I don't look at Cure 1 being valid to cover 65% of scenarios. I look at it as it should be casted 100% of the time in scenarios that it is valid. This is why I have suggested in the past that Cure 1 and Cure 2 should just follow the mastery system introduced in 4.0. and free up another hotbar slot. Because after we acquire Cure 2, Cure 1 becomes very GCD inefficient. I am more than willing to accept MP cost and potency adjustments to accommodate if they did this, which would actually more than likely favor the Cure 2 enthusiast.

In truth, I cast Cure 1 when I have less trust in my group. My healing threshold is higher due to being the start of an instance; not knowing the instance; and/or inconsistency throughout its duration; and as a result, more GCDs are used towards healing. When this is the case, preserving Mana is in my best interest. If the group is performing well, and confidence in their abilities is gained, then my GCDs are better spent offensively.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

There's no reason to use Cure II if Cure will get the job done. Cure will spend less MP and possibly give you a free Cure II anyways. If I see a WHM casting a bunch of Cure IIs I'm going to assume they're feeling panicked. There's a place for Cure in healing.

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The same can be said of Regen, no? Why cast Cure when Regen can get the job done? The answer to that is you don't cast Regen when it can't get the job done. You can't rely on the HoT to keep the player alive, so you restore more HP with a single GCD. The same exact thing can be said about Cure 2 over Cure 1. The reason I say this is because if your using consecutive GCDs to get a player above your threshold, then guess what you're doing? The exact same thing Regen does, except at the cost of GCDs. If a healer is casting Cure 2 in a panic, not only are they overwhelmed, a group wipe is also very likely.

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What determines if Cure 2 is overkill? I can't think of any situations where it is overkill unless it over heals.

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Even if that was the only situation -- and given you are quoting people who are themselves quoting others who claim to be using CureII "all the time", which you can bet involves a lot of said over-healing -- when 'isn't' it overkill?

Let me put it this way (and this is barely tied to the fact I'm a DPS-loving WHM) - I don't need to keep everyone at 100% at all times, which is something I honestly believe some Healers genuinely think is their job. We're there to keep people alive. If I see someone on 80% HP and know there is no incoming threat for the foreseeable future, I do not need to heal that target. If I see a Tank well prepared for a large pull (and assuming Regen/Asylum/TheUsual alone won't keep things at bay), I don't need to pepper them with CII when I can weave in CI's between DPS'ing, to which opens up free CII's for if/when I feel it's needed. This isn't even out of want of being efficient or worrying about MP (not even as a Holy-spammer of the highest order), it's the simple fact that it achieves the same thing, with cooldowns like Largesse making said heal comparable to a raw CII anyway. You can say it's all unnecessary when 'we have no MP worries', but again, I'm constantly looking to damage, and there are situations where (while I may not go completely starved of MP), trying to DPS and enduring overlong situations due to factors out of my control, I may end up with less than I'd normally like.

The only time I have seen WHM's get MP starved is during dungeons with next-to-no downtime, with that WHM resorting solely to CureII spam. There are multiple reasons for this (most of which are out of their direct control), so while it can be argued that it is not their fault, I personally don't suffer those issues because I'm not pissing my MP up the CII wall all day when it isn't necessary (with or without Holy spam).

I'm opposite to you - I use CI's on groups I trust, given they clearly don't require hoovering up massive heals. If I'm resorting to CII's, it's because the tank tri/quad-pulled with low DPS-teams and I'm trying to stay on-top of the situation so that I can throw out non-QC Holy's, or because people are eating mechanics or damage and finding themselves in low-HP situations when I know something bad is happening very soon that demands I get them healthy enough to avoid that issue ASAP.

CII may be more efficient in a HP/Time sense, but I'm here for the long-haul and don't see SE, no matter how much they enjoy making weird changes, keeping things the way they are indefinitely.

Actually, above isn't really accurate - trust never comes into question, I just have a very progressive view on healing power, with some situations obviously being fine with small, medium or large heals. I don't simply resort to "If you like it then you shoulda slapped Cure II on it" mentality just because we've extra MP to burn these days. I'm also not saying it's bad or wrong to be a CureII'er - I just feel it's a bit much, even if the present situation will make it seem like that couldn't be further from the truth.

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Originally Posted by RopeDrink

Actually, above isn't really accurate - trust never comes into question, I just have a very progressive view on healing power, with some situations obviously being fine with small, medium or large heals. I don't simply resort to "If you like it then you shoulda slapped Cure II on it" mentality just because we've extra MP to burn these days. I'm also not saying it's bad or wrong to be a CureII'er - I just feel it's a bit much, even if the present situation will make it seem like that couldn't be further from the truth.

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I'm pretty much of the same mind. I'm a big fan of healing the most efficiently in regards to time, mp cost, and overhealing. Especially since all the content I do is pugged and you never know when your decent group is going to just end up taking a ton of damage that you need to burn a lot of MP on.

It's similar for me, given how I'm looking for every opportunity to burn targets down, which, as a WHM, typically involves lots of Holy. I can do this while keeping people alive with less than Cure II spam and see no reason why I shouldn't. As said, I'm not there to keep everyone at 100% - I'm there to keep people alive. Cure II (as far as I'm concerned) is something you burn when you want to get people from 'dangerously low' to 'healthy' in short order, or used proactively vs incoming burst. Using it on people who are already relatively healthy typically leads to rampant over-healing and MP burned for no real reason, which doesn't automatically translate to 'useless' just because we happen to presently be in a very MP-comfortable position (which could change at the drop of the patch-hat).

That isn't saying I can't be reduced to situations where spamming CII is the only logical approach, just that I see absolutely no reason for using it 24/7 like the people I originally responded to. Having said that, I'm also not trying to tell people how to run their Healing-show, just expressing my 2cents on that particular aspect.

I honestly find myself using Cure II far more than normal Cure. The only time I use Cure is if someone is missing like 15-20% and needs to be topped off, or if the group is taking a lot of unnecessary damage that's draining MP. Sometimes I find myself not even using Regen if I know the mobs do almost no damage, especially bosses that waste a lot of time on cast bars vs auto-attacking.

If you're finding yourself spamming Cure II more than Cure, it's a often a big sign than the tank is undergeared and/or not using cooldowns. Cure 2 isn't meant for being a main heal. Cure I is the staple cure spell, and between that and Regen, you shouldn't need to spam Cure II back to back to back, unless in a big pull or whatever.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

If you're finding yourself spamming Cure II more than Cure, it's a often a big sign than the tank is undergeared and/or not using cooldowns. Cure 2 isn't meant for being a main heal. Cure I is the staple cure spell, and between that and Regen, you shouldn't need to spam Cure II back to back to back, unless in a big pull or whatever.

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I'd like to argue otherwise on cure II not being the main healing spell. It's significantly more GCD efficient than Cure, albeit it being MP inefficient at the same time. Every 14 GCDs spend on Cure is equivalent to 9 GCDs worth of Cure II. So every 35 seconds in an encounter gives me 5 GCDs worth to do other things. This primarily being Stone IV, Aero II or Aero III. Alternatively it gives you 5 GCDs worth for positioning or handling mechanics.

Also Mana comes pretty cheap on whm so cure II would be your de facto HP raiser.

Yep, especially when those 5 GCDs can go towards Holy spam to mitigate damage and kill stuff faster. It makes no sense to waste 2 GCDs to heal someone who stood in something when I can use 1 and a tiny bit more MP and get right back to killing stuff faster. i recently had a tank in Doma Castle complain about me using Cure II, saying I should only be using Cure unless Freecure procs, and have every possible regen on him at all times. Needless to say, he died from full HP in about 0.1s after Hallowed Ground wore off, and I left the dungeon because I'm not going to play like a forum princess healer.

I see a lot of people have come in the debate about Cure II.
I feel responsible for this and would like to remember something I said about it.

I was trying to give tips to the OP, cause this one told us that he seemed to have big mana issue with WHM.
One mistake new WHM do is only spamming cure II (and just this) to heal, which eventually ends up having no mana or poor mana management.

So the "cure" tips was for that and is only one of the several way you can "save" mana as a WHM when you START healing with it.

Cure II as it is now with current WHM toolkit isn't a problem at all.