Should your abilities be called into question if you can't pick up mobs right away?

The class I've been playing the most on FFXIV is the paladin. For the most part, I enjoy playing as the class, but I'm not always the best at picking up adds. Specifically, if I had to pick a specific situation, it'd be the last boss of Haukke Manor, with all these bombs and the three adds she spawns near the end and stuff. I'm not able to pick them up right away, mostly due to targeting issues. I'm still trying to get the hang of targeting filters and everything, like there are times where I'm scrolling through the enmity list and there are some enemies I can't scroll over. I'm guessing that's because I'm not close enough, and there comes a time where I'm just gonna have to move closer and lob a shield at them. But I'm getting off topic. In the time I haven't gotten those mobs aggroed, they're obviously attacking my other party members. Is it generally considered a reflection on your abilities if you can't snatch mobs right away? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.

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Originally Posted by Aldagrate

Is it generally considered a reflection on your abilities if you can't snatch mobs right away? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.

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Not a stupid question. It actually shows that you are worried about it, and care about getting better.

To answer your question: Depends. You shouldn't let a mob running wild for too long, especially not when this certain mob can use tank buster. It doesn't harm anyone when you can't pick it up right away, unless your party mates are already REALLY low. Then again, that's not your fault.
There can be certain reasons, why you can't target it:
1. Either your enemy list is full and can't select it through it.
2. If you are using your cursor, other mobs might block your target.
3. If you tab through the mobs, it might even appear as the last, and thus it takes time.
4. Mob spawns at your back, targeting it becomes even harder.

If a party member gets aggro, they can always bring it to you (the tank), it makes your job easier picking it up. Enmity is not a job for tank alone, but for the whole party. You are the one establishing aggro, the party has to work together to do so and to help you holding it.
If they are running away with the mob, they have no right to blame you, but themselves.

Flash generates a ton of enmity and doesn't require a target. Same for Unleash on DRK. PLD and DRK shouldn't have any problems picking up enemies quickly.

It's not possible to grab things right away if they spawn in different locations, no need to be hard on yourself. A healer can aggro everything in a huge area just by healing, but you can head over to them and use Flash to take back all the enemies around you without needing to set a target. If a dps is focusing hard on a specific enemy while you are trying to gather them all, you can use the role action Provoke to take it back. Can toggle enemies with (R2 + L1) or (L2 + R1) holding the trigger while tapping the shoulder button to switch targets. Can also be handy to stun enemy with Shield Bash if they are casting something on another party member.

I always think of it as a team thing. Since I’m mostly a healer or damage dealer if I managed to aggro a wandering enemy or boss spawn I would to go closer to the tank to let it be taken off me. Is this this method acceptable? I played tank for a short while and always thought it would be nice if someone did that for me since targeting with a controller is a nightmare.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Flash generates a ton of enmity and doesn't require a target. Same for Unleash on DRK. PLD and DRK shouldn't have any problems picking up enemies quickly.

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This. Flash, Unleash, and Overpower all generate the same enmity as hitting everything with a 1200 potency attack, despite how little damage the first two actually do.

If I'm playing the tank, and a bunch of enemies spawn, I'll get ready to get close to the healer because I know who pulls unengaged enemies first. If I'm especially concerned, they get Cover/TBN as well.

You shouldn'tl worry too much about it if you're just doing dungeons. The monsters there don't hit for much, and the DPS can afford getting hit by a few attacks.

Now once you get into raiding, that's when things start to get tricky. It'll often be the off-tank who will pick up the monsters, but they will have to do it FAST! This is because if you just use Flash, it might not be enough to hold enmity from the DPS in this case. So you have to know when the mobster is about to appear and hit it with your heaviest enmity attack. Cuz with these monsters, if you lose agro for even a second, it probably means someone's about to die.

Now this only applies to dungeon bosses that have adds.....let the dps deal with them. Most of the time there are just added to be a nuisance and not make the fight feel like a hit box punching bag. Some even have mechanics associated with them that the dps need to follow.

8 man content and savage raids are different. But since you’ll have a second tank to help out gathering them up, it goes much smoother.

As someone who suffered what your avoiding...I'm greatly appreciative of your awareness.
Here's my slant on this. (Dungeon context)

you're job is to grab aggro....and that means when you pull - you pull the whole mob. DPS is secondary.

DPS's job is to kill the mob.
Healers - heal - and when not healing (if mana permits) - kill the mob.

In a boss fight however it slightly differs.

The Tanks job is to get the boss's attention and steer the boss's usual damage away from the party. If the case of Ad's - try to grab them IF YOU CAN...generally ad's are easy to kill off by DPS/Healer so its not entirely a disaster if you cant. The fact your paying attention speaks highly of your care and concern. :)

Some Bosses will damage the target of choice regardless - but that little enmity chart however should stay red on you regardless. Not drop to yellow/orange (danger) or worse yet...green (zero).

In short - I don't expect a paladin..such as your self - to get all the mobs in a boss fight. Or any tank for that matter.

I do however expect you to hold enmity/aggro on a mob (not a boss fight).
Some classes such as Red Mage/Summoner have a tenacious way of over DPS'ing to the point of "pissing off" the monster target...which pulls aggro over your ability to generate enimty.

People who "assume" that lucid dream or any other cool down should be used in this case...are wrong. Yes - it reduces aggro - problem is as a Summoner we tend to burn mana rappid fireing Ruin II and end up losing a cool down in the process. Its one thing if its a boss fight - but a dungeon mob - no.

Healers? Never ever should be used in this case - White Mages especially - they use that for mana cool downs for holy spam and other fun things. Granted we have Assize to help out, even with Thin Air - but that's a 60-120 second penalty hold...that's a minimum of 1 minute of we "cant touch that".

At least summoners can pull Titan out...and if I do..it means I don't have confidence in the tank in doing their job. (personally If I was a tank - and they used Titan? I wouldn't really care much lol - less work for me - course in a boss fight id not use aggro as an reason - id say - use ifrit for radiant shield))

I had this happen....a Paladin got tunnel vision and was too busy dps'ing the one target they chose and accused me of not picking their target and focusing....the problem with that idea is the AOE spells like Bio II/Miasmos + Bane - pretty much screws their idea of a ideal situation out of the water.

Red mages use Scatter like a shotgun - and that's going to get EVERYONE's attention at the obscene damage it puts out for an AOE spell.
Black Mage? Lighting 4 with fire'ings of Thundercloud at exponential levels for every-single-additional-target it hits. Insane.


I dunno about you...but when your dealing with Mobs... AOE damage is your friend. Better to equally damage the mob in broad-spectrum as opposed to one monster-at-a-time.

As a Dark Knight we have it easy in AoE enmity generation. (Unleash) - but Paladins? Don't know enough about them - but i'd like to think you have one too - use it when you can to prevent targeting nightmares.

Bottom line - no ones got any right to call you out in a boss fights based on what you said..they are all different..just do you best.

I will say however is if you can't keep the Boss's attention (like the one I suffered my first death to a "mini boss" because the paladin couldn't bloody do their job) - then yeah..you may need to check your abilities a bit - assuming DPS didn't blindly walk into a problem.

Am I a Pro? No....but I'd like to think I'm competent as a Dark Knight to take care of business.

Good on you for noticing and being concerned. :) Hope we meet each other in-game.
I'd be happy to help. o7

hope what i said make's sense..and yes...some may not agree with my stance.
Bottom line is this - your doing a fine job....seriously....most people wouldn't bother giving the time of day....the fact you care....speaks highly of you.

Keep going...you're gonna be a fine paladin. :)

My opinion on the matter is to flash like you're wearing a trenchcoat. Once aggro is established, you can then use your Riot Blade combo to get some MP back. When dealing with high-damage AoE dealers, it is always better to Flash every couple of combos so that you don't lose established aggro.

I'm just branching off into tanking, but I main ranged DPS. I do try to keep an eye on my aggro table, however. Anything that can help the tank do their job is good in my book. More time for me to unleash Hell.

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Originally Posted by TarynStryker

My opinion on the matter is to flash like you're wearing a trenchcoat. Once aggro is established, you can then use your Riot Blade combo to get some MP back. When dealing with high-damage AoE dealers, it is always better to Flash every couple of combos so that you don't lose established aggro.

I'm just branching off into tanking, but I main ranged DPS. I do try to keep an eye on my aggro table, however. Anything that can help the tank do their job is good in my book. More time for me to unleash Hell.

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So that's what Paladins call it...good to know.
I'll argue however that DPS's shouldn't have to worry about aggro....granted...it pays to be aware and such but your doomed regardless if the Tank isn't doing their job in majority of dungeon mobs.
DPS need to focus on one thing....doing damage...as much as possible..and as efficiently as possible. Course sometimes you have to adapt..that's a given.
Oh and avoiding taking damage as well hehe.

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Originally Posted by TarynStryker

My opinion on the matter is to flash like you're wearing a trenchcoat. Once aggro is established, you can then use your Riot Blade combo to get some MP back. When dealing with high-damage AoE dealers, it is always better to Flash every couple of combos so that you don't lose established aggro.

I'm just branching off into tanking, but I main ranged DPS. I do try to keep an eye on my aggro table, however. Anything that can help the tank do their job is good in my book. More time for me to unleash Hell.

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If you are having issues getting agro, use your Rage of Halone combo - that will definitely get you back on top. Once you get more experiance, you won't need to use it. But, there's a reason it's there, so if you are having agro issues, use it. :) good luck

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Originally Posted by Aldagrate

The class I've been playing the most on FFXIV is the paladin. For the most part, I enjoy playing as the class, but I'm not always the best at picking up adds. Specifically, if I had to pick a specific situation, it'd be the last boss of Haukke Manor, with all these bombs and the three adds she spawns near the end and stuff. I'm not able to pick them up right away, mostly due to targeting issues. I'm still trying to get the hang of targeting filters and everything, like there are times where I'm scrolling through the enmity list and there are some enemies I can't scroll over. I'm guessing that's because I'm not close enough, and there comes a time where I'm just gonna have to move closer and lob a shield at them. But I'm getting off topic. In the time I haven't gotten those mobs aggroed, they're obviously attacking my other party members. Is it generally considered a reflection on your abilities if you can't snatch mobs right away? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.

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Generally speaking for trash mobs, if another players gets aggro, they should run to the tank. It just makes it way easier for the tank to pick it up with out changing the positions of the mobs they currently have in their net. If the player stands in one spot, or runs around, it disrupts the whole pull if the tank chooses to chase it down.

Losing a mob, or letting one slip though happens from time to time for even the best tanks, and I am sure every single one appreciates when they have a supportive group that helps them out.

As far as Haukke HM goes, bomb adds don't hit for much, and are only a threat when they explode, and sometimes it's better to just let them and move out of the blast radius. The most important part of that fight is to focus down the main add before she absorbs it. If DPS is too high on the boss, you can actually push the add phase before getting a chance to DPS the adds down and wipe the group, so it is really important to switch all DPS to the adds when they spawn.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

As far as Haukke HM goes [...]

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Bet OP is talking about Haukke NM, his Gladiator just hit 42.

In these kind of situations there is always going to be a chance that healer will get agro healing you when adds spawn.
The healer needs to run to you though so you can agro the mobs.
Especially at later levels you will learn that when the tank has to chase mobs across the room while tanking a boss it leads to things like party members getting hit with aoes or cleaves.You dont want this.
If a dps or healer agro an add they should bring it you to help unless the mechanics require otherwise.This way you can just hit a flash or 2 and group all the agro together while still applying hate to main target.
If a single target does chase after a dps or healer you can always hit provoke followed by a shield lob to pull it back to you.

In these type of situations you party members can run to you to help you pick up the enemies. Also you can use sprint to move to enemies more quickly to grab them or reconfigure your targeting options to allow you to target enemies better.

TLDR: Don't feel bad. You aren't somehow failing miserably at tanking.

Low level dungeons are more forgiving so you can do just what youre doing. Learn and get comfortable with the systems. Lower dungeon monsters aren't as threatening and give you some breathing room if they hit another party member before you wrangle them in. As levels go up, so does the threat of monsters. They hit harder, but tanks become relatively tougher than their party. So the repercussions of not grabbing monsters quickly slowly escalates.

Get used to the targeting system. Try out Tab/Shift+Tab, the monster list, get a better feel for how long the range of your flash and shield lob is. Keep your camera angled in ways that allow you to see more of the room so you don't get caught off guard. Watch the agro bar in the party menu under their job icons to see who has aggro, who is close to stealing agro etc. Over time you will find what works for you so that when endgame comes around you are quick on the uptake for any troublesome adds that can 1 shot your team mates.

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Originally Posted by Aldagrate

Is it generally considered a reflection on your abilities if you can't snatch mobs right away? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question.

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Technically yes. More skillful tanks do a better and faster job of picking them up.
However, the majority of the community is, at the very least, understanding. No body expects you to be flawless or have that skillset immediately (save the most elite of douches). If someone gives you a hard time, don't let it get you. You'll get the hang of it eventually if you keep at it. Alot of players give up on tank quickly, just because they aren't instantly getting it right. But the tanks who get it right, get it right because they've practiced.

Funny thing about the bombs in Haukke that you mentioned.
If you ignore them they'll simply explode in a small, easily avoidable AOE which results in their own death. No need to bother with them honestly. As a tank there my priorities are on other things.

I feel it's also worth noting that if for whatever reason an add DOES end up on a party member, they lose the right to complain if they then proceed to run around like a headless chicken, instead of coming over to the tank so that they can grab threat off them expediently.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

I feel it's also worth noting that if for whatever reason an add DOES end up on a party member, they lose the right to complain if they then proceed to run around like a headless chicken, instead of coming over to the tank so that they can grab threat off them expediently.

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Actually that's not entirely true.

It's one thing if the DPS'er pulls aggro from an outlier monster.
It's an another if the monsteri s already focused on the tank and the DPS pulls that monster due to overwhelming DPS.
The tanks job is to not just get aggro..but to maintainn that aggro.
If you don't do regular bursts of AOE Eminity...then yes...YOU ARE at fault for failing to do your job.
Granted there's a reasonable amount of common sense in this....lately I just burn the monster down anyway....but sometimes the tanks do a poor job of "maintenance" the aggro by getting tunnel vision or sloppy/lazy work.

Yes of course the DSP/Healer should run to the Tank - but generally its not always the case.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

I feel it's also worth noting that if for whatever reason an add DOES end up on a party member, they lose the right to complain if they then proceed to run around like a headless chicken, instead of coming over to the tank so that they can grab threat off them expediently.

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Grossly OT, but an old buddy of mine used this username on another forum. Did you by any chance used to drive a boosted b16 sentra?

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Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Grossly OT, but an old buddy of mine used this username on another forum. Did you by any chance used to drive a boosted b16 sentra?

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Sorry for the late reply, but... what is that?

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

It's an another if the monsteri s already focused on the tank and the DPS pulls that monster due to overwhelming DPS.
The tanks job is to not just get aggro..but to maintainn that aggro.

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This is an indicator of a REALLY bad tank. With the current way aggro and tank stance work this should never happen. That being said your still learning and if taking 5 seconds to get an add under control is your worst problem then I'd say your probably doing fine. Learning the fights and understanding how to optimize for dps uptime and boss positioning are much bigger concerns and will come with experience and practice. Keep at it.

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Originally Posted by Kniteroad

snip

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Old tank stance used to give less enmity than today. For comparison, old reduced damage by ~20%, but you gained a 2.7x multiplicator to enmity, while Overpower had its own 10x multiplier (130x10=1300 pot enmity), Unleash a 20.6x (50x20.6=1030), while PLD only had Flash as enmity generator (1200 fixed pot enmity). Todays tank stance just has 10x multiplier to ALL skills AND abilities, so you can take adds way easier than before.
DPS ripping off aggro from tank then was them going single target which isn't an issue from the tank, but the DPS not playing properly. There is to note that tank potency =/= DPS potency, so this can still happen today if you get such stubborn DPS. (e.g. double Midare)

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Originally Posted by Aldagrate

Sorry for the late reply, but... what is that?

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A car made by Nissan apparently. Unless you mean OT, that means Off-tank (tank not currently tanking anything).

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

DPS ripping off aggro from tank then was them going single target which isn't an issue from the tank, but the DPS not playing properly. There is to note that tank potency =/= DPS potency, so this can still happen today if you get such stubborn DPS. (e.g. double Midare).

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Fair point. It’s been some time since I’ve been in a dungeon anywhere near min iLvl or under geared but there are some dps players that like to single target en route between groups and they’ll pull aggro from me on occasion. What I do (cause you can fix stupid people) is use my 1-2 aoe combo on each pack till I hit the wall and on the way I’ll watch for the health of the mobs and if one is going down quick I’ll spam lightning shot/tomahawk/shield throw on it to keep hate.

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Actually that's not entirely true.

It's one thing if the DPS'er pulls aggro from an outlier monster.
It's an another if the monsteri s already focused on the tank and the DPS pulls that monster due to overwhelming DPS.

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No, you still don't run around like a headless chicken. Yes some tanks think one aoe will do the trick, it sometimes doesn't and that's bad tanking, but how on earth is running away from that tank going to fix it and how is your running away their fault? Common sense.

If you pull agro, stand beside your tank and they never take it back, then you can blame them entirely.