The Devs claimed that all those changes to the "PvP-system" were made so its easier to balance and overall more balanced in Terms of Jobs and how they perform in PvP. Yet Astralagos is probably the most unbalanced Thing i have seen in FFXIV so far.
Ranges always had an advantage in large scale pvp but now with a lot of skills stolen from Melees its even worse. Machinists and Bards are especially overpowered since they dont even have to cast anymore. You can basically just stand there and wait to get killed as a Tank or Melee cause if you try to run: they just run behind you and can still fire at you, if you try to fight them: they kite you to a slow death. The few closeups Tanks/Melees have are just not enough. The Latencyissues in PvP dont make it better.
Today i played Healer for a bit. Im not very good at it since i dont play rated PvP anymore but i managed to survive about a minute against 5-7 DPS wich is just rediculous. (Had 10 stacks of the Buff while running around Walls and stuff.)
An Idea to fix it: Its probably time to get those specific nerfs out again like we had in Heavensward. It !MIGHT! be the case that the Feast is balanced but in order to keep people playing the other modes something needs to be done.
(I also noticed that IF Atralagos opens, its mostly the Same people playing it. So its probably safe to say that PvP shrunk back to those people who play PvP anyway regardless of changes.)
I hope they are not done with PvP as it is and reconsider some things.
Edited due to some misunderstandings.
So about Balance.
印刷プレビュー
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2017/12/29, 07:10AraxesSo about Balance.
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2017/12/29, 08:07Zojha
Fear not, SE has heard you.
Based on player feedback, they will buff https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...lance_Icon.png in one of the coming patches.
Please look forward to it! -
2017/12/29, 08:31Sunako
Why dont you play feast then? If you can heal against 7 dps, feast should be piece of cake for you.
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2017/12/29, 10:29Mirch
Balance the modes not the jobs
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2017/12/29, 11:11randoom
Play Feast, you won't survive against 2 dps. Just because 7 dumb dps can't kill you, it doesn't mean healer is overpowered.
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2017/12/29, 12:47ThirdChild_ZKI
7 dumb DPS with potencies lower than your heals that is. I mean, I'm having less and less trouble with taking down healers (likely just bandwagoners trying to ride the current imbalance), but being already at a negative on damage vs healing potency doesn't help, even if they bring numbers. Hell, just a few seconds of familiarization with the WHM kit outside of combat showed me the potential to pretty much just tank damage easily unless met with strong cc/coordinated burst.
But nah, healers are fine and there's no issues with 4.0 PvP balancing in general, right? -
2017/12/29, 14:52AraxesYou must be new. In Astralagos exists a buff that increases your healing, your damage done and decreases your damage received. I had 10 stacks of this Buff. I ran around walls and objects trying to escape. This Buff doesnt exist in the Feast. I was mostly talking about Astralagos but it seems you didnt read the entire thing or just parts of it.Quote:
引用元：Sunako
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2017/12/29, 15:07AraxesQuote:
引用元：randoom
Quote:
引用元：Araxes
People are not Reading.
Edit: BTW i DID play Feast back when it wasnt a 5 Button smash show. Multiplatinum and Top 100 (As Scholar) surely im absolutely not the best player but i think im able to say i know a thing or two. -
2017/12/29, 21:58ZojhaYou mean 2 DPS and 1 tank with up to 50% damage buff and medal vulnerability stacked against you.Quote:
引用元：randoom
Just because you can die while outnumbered 3 to 1 with mechanics dedicated to screw you over doesn't mean healer is not overpowered.
Seriously? Flamethrower aside, MCH DPS will hover around 730 if they use everything they got, Regen alone negates 500 of that. Cure I around 1080. Dodge the thrower and one button of a healer can pretty much negate an entire DPS job nigh indefinitely, as the mana equals the restore tick and the spread is only 0,7 seconds. Indefinitely, if you use your mana restore once in a while.
Bonus: A Scholar bot spamming Broil-Lustrate will do 430 DPS ON TOP of negating 1080 DPS.
If you actually *gasp* use actual resources like the rest of the mortals in your team, you can negate about 2200 damage per second for around 30 seconds and we haven't even looked at OGCDs yet, which skew it all even further. Fire IV spam alone only amounts to a measly 1200 DPS and each of them costs 2000 mana, so this can't be sustained for long. A monk that dumps everything they have can at most spike 7600 damage in one GCD, that's double weaving RoF'd Forbidden Chakra and Tornado kick on a demolish'd target and will take a good minute to repeat. A healer can sustain a burst of 5000 per GCD for over 30 seconds.
If a DPS is a 1 on the power scale, a healer is easily a 2 or 3, possibly more. They're more than twice as powerful. On the scales, they're a 2-3 pound counterweight to a 1 pound weight. They exert over twice as much force on the health bar as a DPS can. They easily negate an entire DPS without even expending noteworthy resources and got ample power to spare. You can phrase that in a myriad of ways, but the result is always the same: Healers are considerably more powerful than DPS. They are a natural counter-force to DPS, as their sole point is to undo damage that has been done, whereas the purpose of DPS is to do DPS, but the counter-force quite literally overpowers the original force by a large margin and needs to be outnumbered for any hope of success.
Take a dictionary, look up what balance means. Not this.
And before someone brings the 4 healer vs 3X and a healer case again: Make a squishy role whose sole ability is to kill itself with a casted ability to appease the blood god and thus globally buff the other team member's health and healing by 5000 million for 20 seconds and 4 of those will not perform as well as 1 of them and 3X either, because you're using your whole, ridiculously huge power to stalling the match instead of advancing it (Sound familiar?). That doesn't make it any less broken OP. Neither does the fact that you can rush the base and prevent them from suiciding via CCing them after respawn and bursting them before the skill goes through. And ensuring both teams have one as Feast does doesn't make it balanced either. And the fact this is a terribly designed, unfun role that's dreadful to play when balanced doesn't have a relevance in balance debates either.
And if you still haven't realized that I'm just regurgitating the common healer apologist arguments on a hypothetical role purposely made so broken that nobody can deny its brokenness to showcase just how stupid these arguments all are that keep being repeated, then you haven't been on healer debates much.
But hey, stay in denial.
What normal balance looks like:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...ahfkUcjBjCKyOW
What healer balance looks like:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...9MPtbqYMoxCot2
The extra bar represents the coordination of the DPS and CC you'll need to use. Or not, I got the pictures from google. It fits either way. -
2017/12/29, 23:11snipski
Machinist is really good in Rival Wings flame thrower in start of mid fight is super useful and the knockback can knock ppl out from edges that is usually a one shot move.
The only healer that needs to be tuned down abit id say is Astro good Astros are a fucking nightmare to play against. If you are a good healer in feast you wont have any problem to climb the rankings in feast because the carry potenial is so much higher then the other jobs.
Still not many ppl seem to play Healer at least on Chaos Data Center. :confused: -
2017/12/29, 23:32BloodRubyXIINo-one wants to play Feast period lol. I mean without queueing at certain times or just outright win-trading, you don't get games and 5 button smash is boring anyway. Last reset no-one in the top 10 queued. At all. There's no decay, so people don't have an incentive to queue once they have the rewards, which means it's dead after a few weeks. Why would anyone be attracted by the prospect of being a part of that? It's not just an issue on Chaos. Even the JP DCs aren't doing so well for PvP activity anymore.Quote:
引用元：snipski
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2017/12/29, 23:46snipski
I never seen wintrading in Feast i think, most ppl that plays are veterans that played earlier season and seem to take it seriously...
There is still alot of cool titles and stuff to be had, but i guess most ppl dont care about that shame really. Because feast is the only "good" pvp this game has to offer and there is not much to do when there is no new raid content out anyway. -
2017/12/30, 00:42BloodRubyXIIThere's a few who -have- wintraded, I don't know if they still do. It's usually healers, for obvious reasons being they control the queues. A ranking system alone is enough for me to play feast, I don't really care much for the actual rewards - I've never been above plat but I suddenly need gold just for the ring but there's no queues lol.Quote:
引用元：snipski
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2017/12/30, 00:51Bahati
The Feast most certainly has win trading issues that I don't believe were ever resolved so what is the point of competing? Healers don't need to be balanced so much as DPS need to learn how to take down healers. CC and timing is your friend. 6 - 7 DPS on you and you living is not a balance issue but a DPS issue.
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2017/12/30, 01:10ThirdChild_ZKI
It's a "Soaring needs retuning" issue, especially when healers have shorter casts (for example, DRG's Fang & Claw combo does 5000 potency, the same as a Cure II, but it's 5000 potency damage performed over 7 seconds vs 5000 potency healed within 1.3), can already provide 20% damage mitigation (so if Soaring is additive, that's now 40% at 10 stacks), and still even before regens and emergency heals are applied.
Let's not act like things are fine as they are, and not every DPS out there is bad, just like not every healer running around right now is good, nor every job balanced. The proof is all over this section of the forum. CC and timing is definitely paramount, but how about those melees that don't have it? -
2017/12/30, 02:22Theodric
Healers just need to be completely reworked at this point. They're the major issue with every PvP mode these days - in Rival Wings they're stacked because they're so powerful. The Feast, meanwhile, is plagued not only by win trading but fights revolving around which healer is better. The impact of other jobs feels rather minimal by comparison. I actually wish we just had some kind of 1 vs 1 PvP mode where the same jobs are pitted against each other in a completely level playing field.
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2017/12/30, 02:27AraxesA 1v1 with the same Jobs would probably the most balanced thing they could put in this Game. But this would probably also be impossible since some jobs are rarely played wich would cause those people to have rediculous Queue times _ wich we already have.Quote:
引用元：Theodric
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2017/12/30, 03:16ThirdChild_ZKI
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2017/12/30, 03:23Sunako
1v1 would need something like block/counter, guard break, punish movements, cc combo etc. We have literally nothing that involve mind gaming in 1v1 situations. Person who spam more buttons usually win there. Just play dark knight and you would win anybody 1v1. Playing against same job is not fun either.
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2017/12/30, 03:25ThirdChild_ZKIGuess what we used to have in 3.x PvP?Quote:
引用元：Sunako
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2017/12/30, 05:41FannahI have to disagree. When you kill someone as any DPS and it remains more than 50% of your life, it's far to be a who spam more buttons. When a player wins 90+% of his duels, there is another reason than spaming more buttons. There is indeed less knowledge when it comes to the new PvP comparing to the PvE, but if you don't think about it at all because you're thinking how easy it is, you will just suck and lose if you're opponent is not in the same mindset as you.Quote:
引用元：Sunako
Depends on the kind of field. If there is a ring out kind of mechanic, the machinist have chances to win by KO -> he can use the border to afraid the DRK, as it'll be his defensive tool. And if the DRK doesn't pay attention, it's an easy ring out when the machinist knows how to play with position delay.Quote:
引用元：Sunako
But yes, overall, the DRK is too powerful 1v1. Thx it's not actually a real problem in the content that matter. It even makes him a powerful solo guardian of base in the Frontline, but often, it's a given role to the DPS -> the worse defenser x) (in a way it's a good trap if you are a great duelist).
Too many people complain about how the new PvP is simple, but so few actually even tried to understand it. They think training on a dummy 5 minutes and doing some pvp maps are enough. It's not a dungeon, they are against people who will adapt. -
2017/12/30, 07:00BloodRubyXIII'm not entirely sure why you've linked those, Japanese players favored the new PvP system (strange people); all these threads are by US players. Having read the JP forums they've taken issue more with a lack of ladder decay and updates to a system that was promised more focus in this expansion. When SE doesn't even take advice from JP players then you know we're screwed; because when 4.0.6 happens they weren't happy. In terms of win-trading, the issue is worse on Chaos and Aether than it ever has been on JP DCs.Quote:
引用元：ThirdChild_ZKI
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2017/12/30, 07:36ThirdChild_ZKI
Ah, so because it's okay for the Japanese, it's okay for everyone? Or it's not a problem unless it's a problem for them too?
Now don't mistake my words as confrontational, I mean only to be thought provoking. That rhetoric however IS important in reminding people that even if SE is a Japanese company, Final Fantasy XIV is a global product, and as such, SE ought to be mindful of the diverse climates of the different global markets. Perhaps win-trading isn't an issue for them, but is it wise to wait til it IS before something is done? No. So too then is it unwise to generally be silent on sweeping matters within one of those global markets, that is, if they want to maintain a healthy market in said region. "Give us your suggestions and feedback" begins to ring quite hollow once you've read any of those threads at length, and the only thing worse than your customers complaining about problems is customers no longer complaining about those problems. Because by then, they usually aren't there anymore. -
2017/12/30, 08:20SunakoWell it is my opinion, I think we not have enough tools for 1v1 pvp mode. I have dueled with almost every single job and it get boring really fast imo. And I m not even talking about how many buttons your dps rotatio is supposed to have, but mechanical tools.Quote:
引用元：Fannah
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2017/12/30, 09:41BloodRubyXIII'm not mistaking your words as confrontational - you're not understanding what I'm saying. It's a long-running theme that SE tends to pay more attention to the JP players than they do to Western ones - hence why they think their current mess of a PvP system has largely been a success, because the JP players advocated it as such. Therefore further understand that for us to get anything, we have to ask really nicely and pray the JP players are asking for the same.Quote:
引用元：ThirdChild_ZKI
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2017/12/30, 11:49Commander_JustitiaPvp is too simple to think of other strategies in 1vs1 duels, there is no reason to wait with burst, it is better to burst in safeguard for example because the damage will be enough already. There is not much variation possible due to the skill lack.Quote:
引用元：Fannah
I have probably played now around 5-6k solo matches in feast, may let there be some training 8v8/4v4 unrated matches in them, whatever.. If there would be a wintrader for every 1000 solo matches on chaos I would say it is an exaggeration. There are maybe way more throwers and trolls, but that is not wintrade if you are not trying to get a specific person up. Premade feast had wintrader who even got rewards. But hard to track a dead mode. -
2017/12/30, 11:50Commander_Justitia
What many don't get is the fight length, in frontline a fight between two parties is over in under a minute in feast healers have to manage their MP for 8min or more, that is why it is difficult and why they are not op there.
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2017/12/30, 13:54Fannah
Well, I don't want to be annoying, I agree PvP is simple, but not to the point of not having to think of others strategy than spamming buttons (the fact you can go in Safeguard is not a lack of strategy, it's a move that makes you live longer and it does it in duels, the one not having it will feel it. It's no awesome strategy either to use it when people are coming on you). And I don't wanna look pretentious but I believe overall people (you are not an overall people with your 5-6k solo games in Feast) thinking this way tend to die if they cross my path while guarding their base or coming to mine, and knowing you can actually burst in their safeguard is true (90% of the time) and wrong at the same time. If I do that like you would, I would die when I fight a WAR with my DRG. "A War sees me, comes to me, Heavy effect on me, uses Safeguard and Thrill of War (under Defiance), in order to increase chances he uses and wasted them, I use Blood of the Dragon early enough so he thinks I'm seriously coming for him, then I just Elusive jump and wait while using walls, then I come back to show him he shouldn't "spam his buttons" and my wasted Blood of the Dragon is actually back in time. If that average WAR had thought a bit more, he would wait for having enough rage point to dash + stun on me when I Elusive jump, nor use his heavy like "hey I caught you, you won't get away from me" cause now I'm immune to Heavy effect for 10 or 15sec). And if he uses his Holmgang to get me back directly while I Elusive Jump, he will die.
Against machinist, you could do like you say and just spam buttons, but lets' say it's better if you know how to dodge his stun to remove 2k+ dmg (from Stun Gun and Between the eyes) and stun duration, and also, it's better if you know how to stun your target as MCH even if they know what to do to get high chances to dodge it.
An annoying DRK is running after you and he knows how to position to prevent being knockbacked from the cliff (knowing to do that indeed can change the result of the fight) ? Then you can actually know how to make your knockback uncounterable (it's about timing, experience, feeling, knowledge).
Some Ninjas did get how to beat you as Machinist? Great, you know you can be beated, so you learn to improve your game to know what to do.
Machinists are unfair to fight for melee dps? Great, I am able to sometimes beat kiting Machinists 1v1 as Monk. It's not working everytime, but it can.
Bard vs Bard? So you better know when to use your silence because the only thing it prevents from their kit to be used is their songs, often used after their 2nd GCD when both poisons are applied.
Playing Monk, better know you don't need to stack 3 times but 2 Greased Lightning to get a chakra stack at the end of your combos (and yes, I see a lot of dueling Monk using 3 times their greased lighthning at the beginning of the fight, I hope they don't use it 3 times when fighting in The Feast in order to go faster with Chakras, that would be a waste of time and TP).
DRK, you upgrade your chances to win when you know when they can or not use their gap closer, stun, and especially shield, so you don't use your burst at the moment he pops it. And also if you know they get a bonus if their shield is broken can help, so you know if you get better to land that last combo move to charge the energy according to your class.
Better know RDM can backflip twice the time you will try to kill them to adapt and keep your mechanics adapted to those 2 backflips.
I actually cannot tell all the exceptions and details according to situations that I can think about, but it's different than "I run straight, use GCD + oGCD between and no reason I would not win, or it was the match-up, of course". Duels in the Wolf's Den and Duels in the Front are different things implying different behaviour.
But better know what to do when you go solo to get a base.
I agree it's not very skilled. I disagree about the fact you just have to "spam buttons" and pray. -
2017/12/30, 14:31ThirdChild_ZKIThat kinda supports my statement from before. Why should we have to wait for it to be a JP problem as well before it's recognized and addressed? That's neither fair nor wise for SE to do.Quote:
引用元：BloodRubyXII
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2017/12/30, 15:04SunakoYou still do almost same skills in each situations just like in pve.Quote:
引用元：Fannah
Have you ever played game called "rock paper scissors"? If i know opponent is gonna choose rock, i should able use paper for that situation and if i know opponent swap for scissors, i should able swap rock for that moment. I think that is the thing pvp need if it is gonna be 1v1. -
2017/12/31, 01:07Fannah
Unfortunately, the thing is major part of people don't know what to do in each situations in pvp (because "too simple and better not think about it").
It's like saying "Bahamut and all Savage contents are easy, you just need to always do the same". Still with knowledge, people do mistakes. They all "know they should dodge that Titan's knockback and get at the right place of the board in Leviathan fight".
"Dead Or Alive 2" on PS2 was an amazing, dynamic and fun kind of adaptive Rock Paper Scissors game :3 But I don't believe nowadays online games can provides me such a good environment to do what I want my character to do like in a Versus fighting game. I've been too used to the amazing technology of instant reaction from my controller on a console against my friends and family.
I actually set 6 GCD in my Wildfire as MCH, but the server answer makes the 6th GCD to not count for wildfire even if even the battle logs of the game show indeed the 6th GCD hit before my Wildfire dmg (I need 2.35GCD to be sure the server has time to count it at 100%, and I have a time answer of 14ms average with neolobby06.ffxiv.com (EU server) when using "cmd").
Also, that position delay is awful because of the fact it seems you are only allowed to attack your opponent if you got the requirements on your computer, but it will only works if you actually have them on the server, and the result will be according to the server result, making it a hard task when it comes to knockbacking the right way.
I think they said they will invest in servers in order to get houses for everyone in 4.2. So maybe they will find a way later to have more reactive servers about this.
The kind of rare rock paper scissors existing are skills like Holmgang/escape moves(backflips&teleports)/samurai counter (Chiten), and CC (you have to adapt your combo and movement skills according to when you have been CC).
Btw, I agree with this, it also is my opinion :) But I am speaking about 1v1 in not-1v1 pvp mode, so like Frontlines, not like a serious real 1v1 pvp mode.Quote:
引用元：Sunako
Duels in the Wolf's Den is for training or fun (like PvP FC tournament).