DRK - My feelings towards it at this point. Slightly Dark.

Hey there,

I know there has been lots of post about this. Many in depth ones about potency and number crunching. I appreciate those.

Mine's simple. I played my WAR at i335 last night, even with my Dark. It's amazing how good it feels compared.

More cools downs, more variance, less feeling of a burden on the healer due to more cool downs. Just better feeling.

I won't create a long list but really more mitigation, less AOE choices, a variance in main rotation. (Jumping up and down with a giant sword does't feel good regardless. A powerful swing would be amazing)

I don't have to be the strongest. I don't mind being the weakest. But it'd be nice to get some of that clunk out of here.

Sorry for any specific offer making it better numbers and potency wise. Thanks.

Have you tried The Blackest Night?

Of course.

Just adding to the long list of people saying the class don't feel right. Thanks.

Yes but I believe people are blowing DRK way out of proportion. Its mitigation is fine in relevant content. Its not clunky at all bar DA C&S, & it isn't any.harder to heal than WAR(imo WAR is hardest to heal). I think people are blind to how DRK really isn't in a super bad shape(think 3.0 PLD) due to the masses saying its bad currently and a lot of people are just going with the flow.

All it's honestly missing is a small bit of dps and some kinda raidwide damage reduction or equivalent skill and it can easily replace WAR or PLD in the meta.

It sounds more like people are just taking the DRK uproar opportunity to list what people want DRK to have rather than actual fixes. Based on what you feel and not what is fact. It doesn't need less Aoe choice, it doesn't even need another main combo, neither of those would fix DRK's problems. I am not attacking you or anything, it's just my two cents(that may have been bettee to keep to myself). But this won't make Yoshi fix the class, it needs hard facts as to why it's worse and a declinIng playerbase(which I can't help with bc I love playing it too much ;_; ).

DA CnS is the one instance of DA done great IMO. I think more skills should have an augmented DA effect instead of "lol durr here's 140 potency." (Personal opinion is redo BS into being a lower potency & a DoT without being DA'd, when DA'd boost it's potency to being comparable to a Fell Cleave.)

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

It sounds more like people are just taking the DRK uproar opportunity to list what people want DRK to have rather than actual fixes. Based on what you feel and not what is fact. It doesn't need less Aoe choice, it doesn't even need another main combo, neither of those would fix DRK's problems. I am not attacking you or anything, it's just my two cents(that may have been bettee to keep to myself). But this won't make Yoshi fix the class, it needs hard facts as to why it's worse and a declinIng playerbase(which I can't help with bc I love playing it too much ;_; ).

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There's a lot of clunkiness to the job that I feel can easily be addressed. Base potency increases sure. Not adding a 3rd combo finisher I can actually get behind. Just fix either DP's potency or cost. Make Sole Survivor useful across the board. Find a way to make Living Dead less punishing to the healers compared to HG and Holm. Do something with the blood gauge and the skills related to it. etc etc

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Originally Posted by RLofOBFL

Yes but I believe people are blowing DRK way out of proportion. Its mitigation is fine in relevant content. Its not clunky at all bar DA C&S, & it isn't any.harder to heal than WAR(imo WAR is hardest to heal). I think people are blind to how DRK really isn't in a super bad shape(think 3.0 PLD) due to the masses saying its bad currently and a lot of people are just going with the flow.

All it's honestly missing is a small bit of dps and some kinda raidwide damage reduction or equivalent skill and it can easily replace WAR or PLD in the meta.

It sounds more like people are just taking the DRK uproar opportunity to list what people want DRK to have rather than actual fixes. Based on what you feel and not what is fact. It doesn't need less Aoe choice, it doesn't even need another main combo, neither of those would fix DRK's problems. I am not attacking you or anything, it's just my two cents(that may have been bettee to keep to myself). But this won't make Yoshi fix the class, it needs hard facts as to why it's worse and a declinIng playerbase(which I can't help with bc I love playing it too much ;_; ).

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Dark Knight offers little to a raid group. This isn't overblown, it just is a fact. In easy content which we overgear these differences are small, in difficult content we don't overgear these issues appear to be larger.

In current Savage the top Warrior put out 8.9% more dps than the top Dark Knight. In current Ultimate Warrior is putting out 14% more dps than the top Dark Knight. This isn't quite HW levels, but it is not trivial.

Current Savage we see a number of uses for party shields to help healers and keep party members alive. Now two out of three tanks bring one, Dark Knight doesn't, I'm willing to bet this is important during prog and speed runs if there is as frequent raid damage as their was this tier.

Dark Knight isn't that bad off with mitigation if you use TBN correctly, but the skill is lackluster imo when paladin has on demand mitigation which also procs a 150 potency oGCD. However, this status of "close enough mitigation" also depends on our tank busters staying magical in nature, I agree with others predictions that a physical tier will put dark knight at a major disadvantage but currently no content really threatens this. I dislike dark mind being less magic mitigation at base unless we dark arts it, and still feel we are missing single target selfsustain when not in tank stance.

We can quibble about more in-depth details about the design and where these things come from. But the point is that Dark Knight isn't giving a strong incentive to groups that isn't already on another tank.

At base, Dark Knight needs alittle more help with mitigation, part of that could just be adjusting the reward from TBN so it doesn't depend on crits, direct hits, and buffs to be a gain. Dark Knight also could probably use a boost to its main combo, and some oGCD enmity modifiers to match paladin and warrior. Finally Dark Knight needs a way to help with raid damage, either by group mitigation, or by a party wide regen to help healers.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

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Here's how I see it. We all know in the DPS scene, MNK is considered to be a "selfish" DPS (no raidwide utility besides weak little bortherhood). WAR is much the same way when it come to tanks, they have Shake It Off, and that's pretty much it. DRK should, just for the sake of variance have more utility than WAR, but less than PLD, in an ideal situation, while being able to keep competitive in damage. Chrono I've read all your threads and frankly, I agree with you that DRK has nothing that other tanks don't do better, and has nothing that makes people look its way, which is something that should be addressed.

I mean, why have a tank around that the other tanks perform better than? If there's no incentive for the class but looks it quickly loses its appeal to a lot of players, especially with only three tanks, variety in skillsets is a must. SE has kinda failed to make DRK noticeable compared to WAR or PLD, which sucks because there's a lot of potential there for a truly unique class, and I think a lot of people have been seeing this lately, and speaking up is what the community should do when a problem like this arises.

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Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

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I agree, but we know how SE feels about reworking skills so I feel the short term fix is to at least make dark knight really noticeable in dps since that is just number tuning.

Come 5.0 I would hope that the devs put in a serious amount of consideration into taking your advice in making all the classes have a variety of skills where each tank can shine.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I agree, but we know how SE feels about reworking skills so I feel the short term fix is to at least make dark knight really noticeable in dps since that is just number tuning.

Come 5.0 I would hope that the devs put in a serious amount of consideration into taking your advice in making all the classes have a variety of skills where each tank can shine.

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I'd really like to see debuffs on combos come back again, but be maybe something exclusive, like how Rage of Halone used to inflict Strength Down in ARR. Hell, what if it was a stacking debuff that gave the DRK more MP back on Carve and Spit, or once it reached full stacks, give the non Dark Arts MP regen to C&S, even if it has been Dark Arts enhanced? Or maybe make Dark Arts inflict some kind of debuff on Syphon Strike or something? I feel like what it does give extra on moves that use it is just, missing something, and there's plenty of ways to make DRK have a unique kit that makes it a factor of consideration for a party, or at least makes it something other than tossed away because "it's not the best."

Honestly outside of TBN the cooldowns need adjustments.

When you run any content outside of lvl 70 you can literally see and feel where DRK suffers in the mitigation department.

Hopefully our cries dont go unanswered and they make some serious adjustments in 4.2

Gonna post this here just to see if anyone feels the same. I agree that drk needs some work in the CD department. But my question for all the DRK's out there (specifically those who played it in HW) how do you guys feel about the nerf to the mp gain of Blood Price? Do you guys feel like it's ok the way it is now as opposed to what it was in HW? I ask because my biggest gripe with DRK currently is just that. Blood Price used to be incredibly satisfying to use and allowed for awesome self sustain during big pulls. And I understand that it's meant to build blood more than mp now, but are we ok with that? I'm fine with BP being locked behind grit. My problem is that compared to Blood Weapon, the mp gain from BP is nowhere near on the same level as BW. Imo, the two skills should be relatively equal in terms of the amount of mp you get from them. Any thoughts on this?

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

But my question for all the DRK's out there (specifically those who played it in HW) how do you guys feel about the nerf to the mp gain of Blood Price? Do you guys feel like it's ok the way it is now as opposed to what it was in HW?

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I feel like the MP regain nerf was to counter people who use BOTH Blood Weapon and Blood Price but Blood Price has Grit restriction(needs Grit on) like Blood Weapon(needs Grit off) and feels like they just said close enough when they applied MP nerf AND Grit restriction and in turn undertuned the skill too much, so in order to make Blood Price useful again just increase how much MP it gives OR make Blood Price like WAR's Unchained skill which ignores stance penalty, allow Blood Weapon to be used during the Blood Price window, have the Vengeance effect of dealing damage when hit, and buff Blood Weapon with Dark Arts effect of increasing damage dealt and have lifesteal/Bloodbath effect.

of course it was better in HW, but with the MP gain of Quietus it's okay.

Blood Price gives blood > use blood to get mana.

unnecessary skill bloat and clunky, but it allows for Dark Arts Abyssal Drain spam in big pulls, especilly if you use Delirium to extend the duration of Blood Price, so technically not much has changed.

but remember it was originally not planned that Quietus gives mana, it was patched in in 4.05 - wich is just another proof that the devs messed up big time with the DRK, and this is just a bandaid fix.

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

Gonna post this here just to see if anyone feels the same. I agree that drk needs some work in the CD department. But my question for all the DRK's out there (specifically those who played it in HW) how do you guys feel about the nerf to the mp gain of Blood Price?

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It's obvious why it was nerfed. It's been nerfed for the same reason that spells like Holy have reduced damage for multiple targets.

And that's why I can't be bothered to complain, because it's not going to be reverted. Devs despise the super-pull tactics, and are doing what they can to stamp it out this expansion. And it's certainly getting harder to do, but still plausible.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Devs despise the super-pull tactics, and are doing what they can to stamp it out this expansion. And it's certainly getting harder to do, but still plausible.

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all they have to do is to increase the damage of trash mobs. as long as a regen is enough to heal through a single pull, of course we will pull more...

i once pulled super big in bardam's mettle - we didn't wiped, but only because of living dead and it was all in all something i will not do again. sorry again healer, but i just had to test the limits xD

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

I feel like the MP regain nerf was to counter people who use BOTH Blood Weapon and Blood Price but Blood Price has Grit restriction(needs Grit on) like Blood Weapon(needs Grit off) and feels like they just said close enough when they applied MP nerf AND Grit restriction and in turn undertuned the skill too much, so in order to make Blood Price useful again just increase how much MP it gives OR make Blood Price like WAR's Unchained skill which ignores stance penalty, allow Blood Weapon to be used during the Blood Price window, have the Vengeance effect of dealing damage when hit, and buff Blood Weapon with Dark Arts effect of increasing damage dealt and have lifesteal/Bloodbath effect.

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I don't necessarily agree on the cause, I tend to think along the lines of abyssal spam being the reason for the giant nerf hammer. Though you may also have a point about grit locking it to prevent using both Blood Price and Blood Weapon. I love the answer to 3.x complaints about not having access to blood weapon in grit: "well now you don't have blood price out of grit... look we fixed it"

Blood Price is just such an underwhelming skill now. Single target with optimal conditions and I can expect what? 100 blood and 1 extra dark arts every 100 seconds, and I need to use delirium on that to achieve those numbers. It is super underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

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Valid point. DRK needs more resource generation to be just as good as WAR and PLD, and another combo finisher before 50 to be better than PLD for anything that isn't end game. The new Delirium is nothing more than a glorified MP regen which is supposed to generate more blood gauge but it fails due to being a 120 second cooldown AND using blood gauge. I would be okay with it IF it also recovered HP and a GCD, if it just extends 1 of 2 skills which BOTH which are locked under stance conditions, on a 120 second cooldown and costs 50 blood gauge, and to add insult to injury, TBN which only gives 50 blood gauge when it breaks, costs mana that you just got from Delirium, doesn't even break with Grit. I think it would be better for the Blood Gauge to be used for mitigation/self healing, and MP to be used for DPS/utility debuffs. Though that is just my ideal DRK at this point... that reminds me I should probably update that DRK wishlist for 4.2...

I feel like SE backed themselves into a corner with these PLD and DRK changes. DRK's whole niche in 3.x was "magic tank" whilst PLD was "physical". Well now PLD mitigates magic WAY better than DRK AND does more damage AND more utility. You could still say "well DRK has Dark mind which is free magic mitigation, while true PLD has a job gauge that is literally only for 2 defensive options, a block(magic mitigation) or a Blackest Knight on another person (10% damage reduction... practically same thing).

So you have to ask yourself, what does DRK do better than the other tanks? Their AOE is nothing to write home about, their dps is dead last, they have no raidwide utility, they have the least amount of self defensive cooldowns, no way of dealing with auto attacks (RIP Dark Dance), etc etc.

SE needs to give this class an identity, or it will continue to be the least played and worst tank job in the game (of course, unless they make it stupid overpowered which would be dumb)

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

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You mean like PLD right now?

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

SE needs to give this class an identity, or it will continue to be the least played and worst tank job in the game (of course, unless they make it stupid overpowered which would be dumb)

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This is what I have felt since early access, we lost the identity that we had since the job's introduction and got nothing in exchange for all of the skills that we once had. While all other jobs have since had their identity bolstered to some extent or another in Stormblood. Paladin is a stalwart all in one utility tank with great Damage, Mitigation and Utility. Warrior is still just the no holds barred all-or-nothing DPS tank that its always been, and Dark Knight is just.... there.

People who don't play the job and SE like to say its viable, which it is, and then claim its fine, but the problem isn't with the viability of the job and more that it feels as though it has nothing going for it.

Every job has a defining feature they bring to the table in Stormblood except for Dark Knight, and that's just wrong... I'd love for them to make us a high risk, high reward tank where good high-level play rewards ua with great damage and mitigation, but I don't know if they're capable of pulling that off at this point. Especially when the kit we have now and had in 3.X would have complimented one another exceptionally well, but instead they took our defining skills and abilities and just said "nah, you don't need that."

Like... why remove the Low Blows proc? Could it not still function if we have it cross-role? What reason was Blood Price nerfed if it was just going to be locked behind Grit? Why was Unleash nerfed when its the only AoE the job has until the late fifties? Why is Sole Survivor still completely unrewarding? Why were our MP costs homogenized to basically be the same across the board raising some of the costs to astronomical levels compared to 3.X while also limiting our ability to use said skills? Every change they've made is simply backwards.

Honestly if 4.2 goes by and they do nothing people need to be extremely vocal to the point of almost badgering them for changes, because at this point there's no excuse to keep ignoring the glaring issues that they introduced in 4.0 with all of the action pruning.

If all the forum posts that have been active for the past 5-6 months about Dark Knight's problems not indicate that there is something wrong with the class to SE, then idk what i or others can do at this point. I threw away Dark Knight and started playing Warrior 4.1 onward and the feeling is great. Raids, dungeons, even casual stuff like hunts and treasure maps where a tank is needed to hold the mobs while everyone kills em just feels great.

My advice, throw away Dark Knight and you'll feel better, remove from your job hotbars if you want, it will make you feel better in the long run if 4.2 brings more disappointment to all you tired and exhausted fans of the class, screaming to have a fix to happen.

Don't let a class ruin your experience, let SE experience the drawbacks of the players they haven't listened to.

Gotta agree with SoulSkyheart. Loved tanking as DRK in HW, but playing PLD and WAR in SB just makes the issues with DRK even more obvious. As far as identity goes: DRK right now is very linear in what it can do, old gimmicks feel hamstrung and the new ones really feel disjointed with the rest. Their "removal" of parry, and having other alternative forms of damage control (PLD's Divine Veil and WAR's vengeance) really doesn't leave a defensive position for DRK to cover. And if we consider the current "design mantra" of less utility = more damage, DRK just screams that the development team doesn't know how to apply that mantra on it.

My main problem with DRK now is that it is just so boring compared to the 3.X version to the point that it feels like a different job entirely if anything it feels more like 2.X PLD than anything else.