tl;dr while editing, please give us a pvp mode where there isn't such a huge gap between teams if they do the one single meta you've designed in the game well or not.
Been thinking about why Rival Wings is angering me so much, and I think it's because the experience really is designed for high team cohesion to succeed. Most PvP in this game is like that, where there's a pretty massive gap between teams that execute your planned strategy for how a match should go, and teams that don't or can't. I'm not saying they should win, but that the experience really sucks overall unless you discern the single way you as designers want us to play and execute it.
I don't think this should change, but I'd kind of like a lower pressure mode where there isn't really only one way to do things, and it's more of skirmishes and small battles than organized team events. I don't mean like Feast, because Feast really just has one way to do it either. Maybe it should be open world pvp or something. But as Japanese game designers, I notice you really tend to ignore the individual over the group, and focus on a group executing everything perfectly to win. The only way you change this is by making "perfect" a very low bar. But it would be nice to have a mode where it doesn't suck horribly if you fail to execute the predetermined strategy. In RW it's often 10 minutes of knowing you have lost, and in shatter it's ten minutes of staring at a huge deficit in points. Same as feast.
I guess something a bit less like savage and more like bomberman, where the fun isn't in a meta but in the chaos. PvP in this game is the exact opposite; every match as a single meta, with maybe an alternate, that you have to stick to and outperform the other team. And if you don't do this, the match is just waiting to end most of the time. I just would like a bit more free form pvp where maybe players can drive events and not react to them so much.
Please add a mode that doesn't require as much teamwork.
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11-29-2017, 04:55 PMRiyahArpPlease add a mode that doesn't require as much teamwork.
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11-29-2017, 04:58 PMAirget
I'd prefer SE give us the option to actually have premade groups. . . that can only go against other premade groups. It is a bit of a pain that the current Rival Wings, while it's 24v24 in reality it's a 4 man content that people can play together with. If you try to get others to join they will either be on the opposite side, in another instance or by luck on your team.
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11-29-2017, 05:22 PMRiyahArp
That doesn't really solve anything. Even with premades, you still have the one single timeline of the match you won't deviate from, and you still both have to follow the script. It doesn't really change much because even with premades its so tightly structured that you can stalemate quite easily if you are evenly matched. You play a ful 20 min to lose the game by 1% on the core.
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11-30-2017, 03:50 AMWintersandmanI can't think of a single pvp game/mode/etc that doesn't require Teamwork. Shatter you don't have to follow the meta. That's just the least confrontation route people follow. 24 man big ice is the best example of no actual meta holds. I have won just by capturing bases and ignoring ice, I have won by kills and ignoring ice (3 Big ice still up), I have also won by beating on ice because my team couldn't hold a base and didn't know how to kill opponents.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
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11-30-2017, 03:58 AMThirdChild_ZKI
That was the beauty and bane of Shatter. There was no one way to win it, and being able to adapt strategy on the fly made all the difference.
I beat a premade once using hit and run tactics on objectives. Since we knew they wouldn't hit ice and only go for players, we'd split up, some would cap their base, others would go for the ice. Once they were sighted, we signaled each other with macros, the team that spotted them would then scatter (since they couldn't follow everyone), and the next team would move for the next objective. It was a glorious, and pathetic moment. But a win for the "little guys".
Ah, fond memories. . . -
11-30-2017, 04:22 AMWintersandmanHaha We did this exact same thing against a premade led my Gracidea Shaymin. We saw it was her (She was the only schizo healer on Primal that would charge forth at the front of her group casting aero on everyone before her pack devoured them) and called out to our group "AVOID MAEL". We went on to whittle away at lil ice until we saw them coming and we would disperse. We ended up winning by a small margin but still won.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
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11-30-2017, 04:30 AMRiyahArpThe meta in shatter was loading up one GC with all the pvpers so the other ones had all the bots and solo players. I lost all faith in the PvP community when they did that on primal and people argued to my face it wasn't happening, even as maelstrom started tipping to absurdly high win rates, and the freelancer mode put me on flames 95% of the time as a solo player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
I guess what I mean is I'd like a mode where we can just have fun, and not have to always follow a restricting, tight meta that sets up a precise timeline for a match. Shatter was not freeform as you think, because people planned their stuff around the times ice spawned. RW is honestly horrid that way, especially if you aren't in a bot. Maybe open world stuff or something, but the whole "group precise play" thing is getting really old. The fact that in RW it's to the point where you can't even play half the jobs in the game due to the meta is ridiculous -
11-30-2017, 04:38 AMWintersandmanMaybe that occurred on Lamia but Primal it did not. I know my friends who are PvP'ers stuck with their GC. It was the sheep who went all to one GC. Mael was better on average in 72 man but in 24 when ice had less weight they were horrid and would have a losing record because they were PvE'rs in a PvP mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
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11-30-2017, 04:44 AMRiyahArpI don't know if you can still see them,but you could see the win rates for frontlines via the lodestone, and ask people their weekly stats. It wound up hardening on primal to mael being first, twin being second, and flames being third. It was really bad, and I'm glad that mode is dead now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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11-30-2017, 04:44 AMHaoNamTranslate: You just to play something that you can always win.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
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11-30-2017, 04:48 AMRiyahArpI want something to play that is fun to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaoNam
If I cared about winning, it's not that hard to do. Just be cheap in it; always play a healer, always stack your side with premade friends, follow the meta strictly, and that's that. But it's just not fun to win or lose in RW especially. Id like more emergent, free form stuff -
11-30-2017, 04:53 AMWintersandmanI am Flames and I would get a 40-50% win rate which is better than average for a 3 way match which should be 33%. Honestly the ones at the top of the page were more likely bots than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
Then we should get rid of statics but this is a game about playing with friends. It sounds like you can't find anyone to PvP with. Also in regards to your previous comment can't be on mael and be in a premade at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
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11-30-2017, 10:02 AMGuesswhat
The obvious solution would be a simple 2 team deathmatch, where you actually have to depend on your FF14 skills as a player to beat other players. But now they completely separated PvE from PvP, so even if you are good in one mode, it will not help you in the other.
Feast 8vs8 is close, but then there is the stupid medal system...
I really liked 8vs8vs8 slaughter. But even in slaughter they had to add some PvE stuff.
pls delete 4.x PvP and bring back 3.x /cry -
12-01-2017, 01:05 AMAdamZTo say nothing of the HW pvp which actually allowed tanks and ninja's to break off from groups and even solo still have a positive impact towards winning a match. Now tanks are pointless...Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
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12-01-2017, 01:10 AMThirdChild_ZKIAmen to that. PvP is where the classification of Ninja as a "Scouting" job finally made sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamZ
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12-01-2017, 06:11 AMIstaruI hated running into one of them alone in Seal Rock when everyone split up for new nodes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
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12-01-2017, 01:19 PMRiyahArp
Ninja hide had no counter save for Alert, which could only be used by a couple of classes and had a tiny range. Stealth in PvP in general is a bad idea, its a gankers move.
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12-01-2017, 07:47 PMMirch
carry harder, if you always point fingers on others you will never succeed
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12-01-2017, 07:51 PMCommander_Justitia
can rival wings get ice? and an icecrusher mech ? I need to keep my ice fflogs up2date, all this teamwork thing really hurts my rotation
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12-01-2017, 08:46 PMThirdChild_ZKII personally enjoyed watching a NIN try to hide while in sight, then dashing out to their last location and using Detect to expose them. A Dex job could stealth, and all Dex jobs had Detect, even other NINs. And considering you couldn't stay hidden and cap a base or attack an objective, nor move at normal speed, I'd call that fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
Ganking? Whatever. Stealth was no different than hiding behind one of the Allagan structure fragments or ruins on the maps and ambushing a passerby, something I've been on both the giving and receiving end of. The element of surprise has always been a powerful, strategic tool in battle. -
12-02-2017, 05:36 AMRiyahArp
Detect has problems with range and the cooldown. Like in Shatter, it was impossible to find a NIN unless you already saw them hide; the range was too small and the environments too large. And surprise, eh; the problem was even when you knew said ninja was doing that, you couldn't be prepared for stealth, because it rendered them untargetable. You can check behind pillars from a distance or just run away from obstructions. Hide was the gift that kept on giving, in other words.
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12-02-2017, 06:39 AMWintersandmanI honestly feel like 3.0 gave you a few blisters because as someone who played Nin. Yes there were times Detect was rendered useless but there were other abilities to lure them out. But also an experienced PvP'er knew how to bait/lure the ninja. If you knew the Ninja was also there it was as simple from keeping him going Stealth if you applied a DoT.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
Moving to 4.0 eliminated a lot of strategy behind the modes. -
12-02-2017, 07:55 AMThirdChild_ZKITHIS. So much this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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12-02-2017, 01:00 PMRiyahArpyes, you could use point blank aoes to try and hit them, no they had the same issues too, like small range. The easiest way to deal with them was just to tell the alliance, and then leave the base in twos. I mentioned detect mostly because it's a good example that for what people liked in a mode, there were also things that were pretty bad in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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12-02-2017, 01:53 PMDivinemightsPlease, Malestorm is really weak in 24 men and so so in 72 men before the Garo event.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
It was pretty even between 3 GC in 72 men and Flame/Adder > Malestorm in 24 men. It is until this expansion where you are getting botters chose flame or adder because of easy queue time that gave Malestorm players a false impression that they are dominating. Try Frontline now and you will see Malestorm is struggling -
12-03-2017, 07:22 AMWintersandman
Riyah, what was bad? Did you get jumped by ninjas? That was their purpose. They were meant to take out the stragglers. I have been on both sides of the coin and you don’t see me crying about how bad it was. I got outplayed. Simple as that. Now we just have crap.
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12-03-2017, 12:17 PMRiyahArpSigh. I'm not arguing this again. Look at Lodestone stats, and if you actually played shatter towards the end of 3.0, you saw it. They are struggling now because they all stopped farming shatter and its purely random who goes on at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemights
I was a healer in it, so I didn't have many issues with NIN. My point is more if you love the better tactics of 3.0, you kind of have to realize they existed because counterplay was bad or nonexistent. Nin could take out stragglers only because stragglers as a whole were at a disadvantage in counterplaying it, the same way people at a disadvantage with sleep in frontlines, or stunlocks in feast.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wintersandman
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12-03-2017, 12:49 PMThirdChild_ZKISo effectively, it really IS the skill of the players, and not the GC that makes the difference then? Otherwise Maelstrom would still be the "best" right now. . . It's like I was right all along. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
CC and DR being universal was the counterplay for a lot of things. Relying on Sleep or stunlocks too much not only makes that strategy predictable, but it only worked so long before you made the player immune. Range is, and always was a counterplay to a melee, even if they had gap closers. Healers had Attunement, though even THAT had a workaround (Hawk's Eye) and wasn't a get out of jail free card if caught unaware/alone. There's also the fact that we weren't forced to choose crucial skills like Sprint or Purify over something else. EVERYONE could sprint. EVERYONE could Purify. And even if it had a long cooldown, fact is, you never had to choose between either one or any other beneficial PvP skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
People see the button reduction and think "Oh they made it easier to pick up!" but they're missing a few important things:
- Everyone could sprint. It wasn't an optional skill.
- Everyone could Purify. Not much changed about Purify except that now it IS an optional skill that you have to consider over other things.
- PvP skills were upgradeable, and often worth it to do so. This is why there was PvP XP/ranks. They helped, but being low rank or having unupgraded skills weren't gamebreaking.
- Ranged didn't hit like melee, and even had a damage falloff at max ranges. They were still equally deadly, but didn't have nearly as much advantage as they do now.
- EVERYONE had several CC skills, most of which were quite sensible for the job that had it. In MCHs case, for having so many, they had shared cooldowns.
- Many skills that were deemed "useless" in PvE held VERY strong utility in PvP, such as Sleep, MNK's One Ilm Punch (removed buffs), binds in general
- Tanks were tanky. Healers were HEALERS. Yes, they could DPS, but it was low in potency and a far second to their primary role, which they excelled at.
- With access to the full PvE kit, and not a fixed set of abilities, however sensible or not, the individual skill of players really made a bigger difference then. This new system might promote more accessibility (perhaps as to encourage lower leveled players to get into it), but in a system where "anyone can be good", good players are still greater, and knowledge/understanding of the PvP system or the game mode still holds more weight.
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12-03-2017, 01:17 PMRiyahArpC'mon, you know Shatter is dead. Now that there's no real incentive to play or win at it, it's just that all the pvpers who packed Maelstrom just don't bother, not because it really was skill all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
As for the list, it honestly didn't really do as much as you think. Purify was just overwhelmed by all the CC, and barely useful in Feast if the DPS could manage to have excellent awareness and use it on the healer. Ranking up just meant you were gimped for a good month with lower cooldowns and less potency on some skills. The bard thing was like casters doing less on ice; it wasn't adding to skill, it was just a nerf since you didn't have zoning tools or even an indicator of distance unless you used plugins. I mean, we could go over the old days for hours. A lot of these tools you could really only use if you were pretty good, otherwise they'd be incredibly ineffective.Quote:
People see the button reduction and think "Oh they made it easier to pick up!" but they're missing a few important things:
Everyone could sprint. It wasn't an optional skill.
Everyone could Purify. Not much changed about Purify except that now it IS an optional skill that you have to consider over other things.
PvP skills were upgradeable, and often worth it to do so. This is why there was PvP XP/ranks. They helped, but being low rank or having unupgraded skills weren't gamebreaking.
Ranged didn't hit like melee, and even had a damage falloff at max ranges. They were still equally deadly, but didn't have nearly as much advantage as they do now.
EVERYONE had several CC skills, most of which were quite sensible for the job that had it. In MCHs case, for having so many, they had shared cooldowns.
Many skills that were deemed "useless" in PvE held VERY strong utility in PvP, such as Sleep, MNK's One Ilm Punch (removed buffs), binds in general
Tanks were tanky. Healers were HEALERS. Yes, they could DPS, but it was low in potency and a far second to their primary role, which they excelled at.
With access to the full PvE kit, and not a fixed set of abilities, however sensible or not, the individual skill of players really made a bigger difference then. This new system might promote more accessibility (perhaps as to encourage lower leveled players to get into it), but in a system where "anyone can be good", good players are still greater, and knowledge/understanding of the PvP system or the game mode still holds more weight.
I'd rather honestly discuss fixes that won't up the complexity a lot. I'd rather straight healer nerfs or retooling than go back to stunlocks as a means to counter them. -
12-03-2017, 01:58 PMThirdChild_ZKI
I'm pretty sure many people still didn't yet get their ADS mounts, nor were they a limited time thing, so the "incentive" as far as rewards go IS still there. But there's something newer, so people are flocking to that, of course.
I seem to also recall people saying that all the players who wanted to win went to Mael and turned off Freelancer, which, you could easily say by numbers there were bound to be skilled players there, yes? If those skilled players are off doing other things, and Maelstrom suddenly isn't doing so well, does that not just prove my point?
I mean, same thing applies to Rival Wings now. People say "red team always wins" but I've surprisingly LOST more on the Ravens than the Falcons, and certainly not for suddenly playing worse on one than the other. My ability to play well or win isn't affected by my team color at all. It never was. And it never was for anyone else. Though it should be noted - and I know people aren't going to want to hear this - that if the "red team always wins" and you're not on it when that happens, part of it can be because you've convinced yourself that that's true. The placebo effect is quite real, and more powerful subconsciously than you might think. -
12-05-2017, 03:17 AMWintersandmanThinking simplicity is going to solve the issue is foolish. People need to learn how to use skill which is what is lacking. You can make the mode one button and it still wouldn't change anything. At least the complexity makes it Dynamic and less confusing than what we have now. You can't switch between PvE and PvP and expect the skills to perform the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiyahArp
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12-06-2017, 09:03 AMEtrius
I'd ask for a mode that doesn't require healers... but that should also work.
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12-07-2017, 03:13 AMMyon88
There is only one source of completely fair, symmetrical, no randomness, no teammates required 1v1 PvP in game. It's just funny that it's a gold saucer minigame.
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12-08-2017, 07:35 AMuvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu
Team work can be fun but really depends on the team. That's why they put mechanics so everyone can contribute something. Problem is takes different stuff and ppl just follow or wants least work. There needs to be role restriction like in PvE so each has specific task, but that just ends up same, long queues for easiest mech.
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12-08-2017, 06:19 PMMirchLmao no people only need to inform, if they lazy their problemQuote:
Originally Posted by uvuvwevwevweonyetenyevweugwemu