Is it time for relics to be the same ilevel as savage weapons?

I think it is. We invest so much time on these relics and are still lower in ilevel than savage weapons.
Time and difficulty should cancel out and be the same at the end of the day in my opinion. It worked in realm reborn, it should work again.

Feels like we're waiting forever to even get relics in Stormblood.

No thanks. I don't want a replay of the Unidentifiables.

Relics usually catch up with the Savage (Raid) weapons on the last raid tier of an expansion, and are a guaranteed BIS slot.

This is already pretty generous. In my opinion the strongest weapons should have remained locked behind raids, not due to e-peen, but because raiding and clearing difficult content is also something you invest time and effort into.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

No thanks. I don't want a replay of the Unidentifiables.

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Relic is already coming back and with armor this time but it's unlikely to be dealt with the same way as ARR/HW relics.

I just want to get them at this point, we are half a year nearly into expansion and no relics still :/

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Originally Posted by Shouko

Relic is already coming back and with armor this time but it's unlikely to be dealt with the same way as ARR/HW relics.

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Well, I just don't specifically like the Unidentifiables, everything else was bearable.

Even with the relics going to the same iLv, we went same iLv a month or so prior to the next major raid patch, so they didn't last long at same iLv.

I wish they would just release the relics on time so that you could use them during the start of a raid tier. Raiders would gladly spend hours farming the relics even if they would be replaced eventually.

I don't care if they are not the strongest, I just want them to be relevant for longer than they have been.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I think it is. We invest so much time on these relics and are still lower in ilevel than savage weapons.
Time and difficulty should cancel out and be the same at the end of the day in my opinion. It worked in realm reborn, it should work again.

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The relic should be the best weapon in the game given how much effort you put into it. More than some people put into savage weapons for sure. Even Ultimate Coil only needs ONE clear to get a weapon, while the Relic takes months of grind.

It's always the best weapon by the final patch.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

The relic should be the best weapon in the game given how much effort you put into it. More than some people put into savage weapons for sure. Even Ultimate Coil only needs ONE clear to get a weapon, while the Relic takes months of grind.

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The relic grind has never compared to the amount of effort across an entire team that goes into an Ultimate Coil clear. Yes it's just one clear, but the work that goes into that clear is significantly more involving than semi afk grinding various things whilst watching netflix aka past relics.

If anything, I'm slightly disappointed the Ultimate coil weapons didn't get a small cheeky weapon damage or iLvl boost, it'd motivate more groups to actually try it for sure.

Relics should be special. I'm not for them being better than Savage Weapons but the relic grind does start with a lot of work and the product in the beginning is weaker than tome weapons for the most part. It's really a bit disappointing and one needs to get so far into a relic grind (stages) to make them worthwhile.

Let me pose this question. Would any of you do the relic grind if it gave you a simple congrats at the end and no weapon to show for it?

Of course the answer is no, now here's the real question. Does anyone else see a problem with this?

The relic weapons existed in other FF games and to obtained them, the content was challenging. It didn't feel like a grind. But make no mistake, killing Shinryu in FFV for the Spear or Ogopogo in FFIV for the katana, was a bit of an accomplishment.

The gear I can buy with tomestones is another decent example of attaining gear (if a bit simple). I actually enjoy running the dungeons in SB, and getting the reward of tomestones is icing on the cake. Why shouldn't the relic weapons follow something similar, if not a bit more complex? Running trivial content, even if its 100 times, is still trivial. The challenge should be in the content itself not the tenacity of the player to suffer through it.

And I don't want to hear this stuff about Japanese culture being different. Shigeru Miyamoto produced some excellent games that featured content that you played through simply to play. You can use the warp whistle, but sometimes you just wanted to play through worlds 2 through 7. That's good design.

Relics should be challenging, exciting, and most of all fun to do. Don't get me wrong, they should require effort. But wouldn't it be nice to complete the quest and say, "damn I wish I could do that again." Outside some of the reputation grinds that some of them had, the Epic Fabled Weapons in EQ2: Rise of Kunark were actually well done. Those quests took a few days to complete. The Artifact Weapon quests in WoW: Legion were interesting if a bit too short.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The relic grind has never compared to the amount of effort across an entire team that goes into an Ultimate Coil clear. Yes it's just one clear, but the work that goes into that clear is significantly more involving than semi afk grinding various things whilst watching netflix aka past relics.

If anything, I'm slightly disappointed the Ultimate coil weapons didn't get a small cheeky weapon damage or iLvl boost, it'd motivate more groups to actually try it for sure.

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I though the reward for ultimate was supposed to be completing difficult content, for the 1% of the 1%.

I always thought people only bothered with them for the pretty skins.... and something to do

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I always thought people only bothered with them for the pretty skins.... and something to do

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I guarantee a lot more people would be learning/clearing shinryu ex if we had the relic weapons already.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I guarantee a lot more people would be learning/clearing shinryu ex if we had the relic weapons already.

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In my experience the gear isn't the reason people are losing fights. Most people are in their 340's already and the DPS checks have so far been really forgiving if everyone has an idea of what they're doing and there's minimal 2 or fewer deaths.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I guarantee a lot more people would be learning/clearing shinryu ex if we had the relic weapons already.

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How do you figure? People honestly did the relics for the design not the weapon itself, otherwise people wouldn't be still doing them today.

I think raiders deserve the absolute best possible weapons in this game since they're the only ones who are really going to be running content that necessitates having *the* best numbers.

The relic needs to be good and it needs to be shiny. If it meets both of those qualifications I'm happy with it.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

The relic should be the best weapon in the game given how much effort you put into it. More than some people put into savage weapons for sure. Even Ultimate Coil only needs ONE clear to get a weapon, while the Relic takes months of grind.

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Time =/= effort. Relics are always a mostly mindless grind, and as long as you can 1-2-3 decently you can get one.

Only relic stage that was ever hard was killing Titan Hard at 2.0 launch...and since then, there have been no hard steps to the relic at all. They've either been a time-sink or money-sink. And neither is honestly comparable to the effort raiders make clearing raids

EDIT: If relics actually required raiding, that would be another story...and would also prevent 95% or more of the playerbase from getting them. As it is, best weapons and armor should belong to those who need them and put in the real effort to getting them.

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Originally Posted by Texa

I think raiders deserve the absolute best possible weapons in this game since they're the only ones who are really going to be running content that necessitates having *the* best numbers.

The relic needs to be good and it needs to be shiny. If it meets both of those qualifications I'm happy with it.

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But that's not an absolute, that's an opinion. You make it sound like effort and time don't cancel out each other, which they do. After you get your savage weapons you don't need it for anything else either, so that argument doesn't hold any water. Both are gotten and are used in all of the game's content which one wants to use them in and it makes any content they want to use them in easier whether it is extreme primals, dungeons, aquapolis, and alliance raids. What we use savage and relic weapons in don't need to meet a "standard" for them to be useful; it just needs to make whatever we want to run easier.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

But that's not an absolute, that's an opinion. You make it sound like effort and time don't cancel out each other, which they do. After you get your savage weapons you don't need it for anything else either, so that argument doesn't hold any water. Both are gotten and are used in all of the game's content which one wants to use them in and it makes any content they want to use them in easier whether it is extreme primals, dungeons, aquapolis, and alliance raids. What we use savage and relic weapons in don't need to meet a "standard" for them to be useful; it just needs to make whatever we want to run easier.

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Difference is raiders will use those weapons to push themselves farther; speed runs, parse runs and now Ultimate all really need the best gear you can get. The people demanding raid-level gear without putting in the effort often want to just sit and pretend they're good...just like all those lovely mentors who can barely 1-2-3 properly.

I'm really hoping relic armor will allow us escape the plague of bad itemization that's been going on lately (Namely, piety being on practically every 330+ healer piece).

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

After you get your savage weapons you don't need it for anything else either, so that argument doesn't hold any water.

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1. Ultimate
2. PUG raid farms
3. Static broke and they have to try-out for another serious hardcore static
4. Best weapon to have when the new raid tier first drops
5. Best weapon to have when new EX primals drop
6. Challenge runs

I could keep going

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I'm really hoping relic armor will allow us escape the plague of bad itemization that's been going on lately (Namely, piety being on practically every 330+ healer piece).

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SE isn't really good with change, they tend to stick to a formula that works and that's it. Bad itemization was an issue in WoW as well, I don't see it changing, unless they give us a way to change stats on gear like WoW did, but again that'll just lead to more elitism, "I see you have spell speed, you really should change that to crit". No there's already too much elitism as it is. Granted itemization is a problem but just think of it as more of a challenge to work with and we know hardcore players love their challenge lol.

Raiders only need to have the best of the patch, they could care less regarding the source. If at the end of the expansion, the relic is the best weapon they will spend time/resources for it. People who work on relics, regardless of their player quality status (because that's a thing) invest time on them at leisure.


Relics should be on par with whatever end-game raiding gear is available, because rehearsing the same dance for x amount of time still an investment of time and resources as mindlessly doing fetch quests or repeating a resource grind ad nauseam. The availability of said power is the only thing that is debatable.


Justifying you need to have the best items to do x activity is moot when at the end of the patch installment the relic is still "the bleeding edge". If the next patch (4.2) does land us the relic, the likelihood of the relic being on par with the next raid won't be until a patch later (4.3) 3 months of "bragging rights" are just enough.

Relics are welfare gear that exists purely to keep content that would not have an adequate population/long queues otherwise. SE deliberately keeps the ilvl on relics just below the current tier of raid gear in order not to alienate raiders by offering superior items (outside of at the end of the expansion) that don't require the level of skill that successful raiding groups require.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Raiders only need to have the best of the patch, they could care less regarding the source.

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They probably do when the process to get the best majorly takes away from their time for raiding and the stuff they want to do outside of that. Which the last relic and the relic before that definitely did back when they were current. We don't even know what the next one will even require yet but I wouldn't trust any prior claims that it won't revolve around repeating any old content until I see it and if Eureka is like the Diadem again I'd honestly prefer just running old content.

For the final step, sure. If you intend for the relic to always be better each tier, then absolutely not. Doing so trivializes the primary reward for clearing Savage. Sorry, but actual difficult content should always reward something better than an easy, albeit long, grind.

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Originally Posted by Texa

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With the way they spoon feed the gear, they really don't. BiS has been mostly available since Deltascape Savage landed. If by 4.1 the relic was the same i345 as the ultimate coil/deltascape savage gear, the stat weights would likely put it on the edge (if minuscule) ahead of the other two sources.


With the min-maxing, it'll put them ahead and a raider at that point would already have a Genji or Ultimate so the grind still renews.


Emphasis: I am not advocating that on launch, both relic and raid gear have the same available level because someone will cry foul. I am however, advocating for a better schedule to make the relics available to match, which would in turn favor raiders.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

I just want them to be relevant for longer than they have been.

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That most of all, even if its shiny, i dont wanna work for an wep thats pointless 80% teh time.

I wish relic armour was like my terrible looking purple armour in FFXI, I had to grab a bunch of people to help me beat open world bosses (if I remember correctly, was over 10 years ago) but remember it being quite fun to do.

No. If the relic were equal to savage weapons during that particular patch cycle, there would be no point in any EX primal weapons at all, for starters. Going by the anima weapons and how they progressed, there’s no reason to hand out BiS each patch cycle by doing the same old dungeons we’ve done for years now. The relic becoming BiS stat wise by x.55 or whatever the final patch is works fine.

Besides, 90% of the appeal of relic weapons is glamour.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

The relic grind has never compared to the amount of effort across an entire team that goes into an Ultimate Coil clear. Yes it's just one clear, but the work that goes into that clear is significantly more involving than semi afk grinding various things whilst watching netflix aka past relics.

If anything, I'm slightly disappointed the Ultimate coil weapons didn't get a small cheeky weapon damage or iLvl boost, it'd motivate more groups to actually try it for sure.

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They get 3 materia slots thats enough for me. I'll be getting one eventually now that i have a raid group to clear things with and I don't mind that at all.

And even if it doesnt compare with the TEAM effort for clearing ultimate coil, its still far more PERSONAL grind which should make it the best weapon. maybe not by very much and maybe another weapon could be similar and act as a substitute if you dont like the relic grind, but that's how it should be or no one will do the relic grind.

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I think it is. We invest so much time on these relics and are still lower in ilevel than savage weapons.
Time and difficulty should cancel out and be the same at the end of the day in my opinion. It worked in realm reborn, it should work again.

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Making relics the same ilvl as the Savage weapons will automatically negate and trivialize all Savage weapon drops, which would make putting them in Savage content borderline pointless—the only reason would be for alt jobs, even though it’s been proven that people will grind for multiple relics, or for glamour. Savage weapons would be even further negated once the relics hit the stat customization step: as it stands now, the additional weapon damage and primary stat of Genji weapons outweighs the i340 Augmented Lost Allagan unless the Genji secondaries are the absolute worst secondaries in the game for your job. Make relics the same ilvl as the Savage weapons, coupled with the customizable stats step, and what would be the point in even including the Savage weapons in the first place? Why would a BRD want a Savage Crit/Det or Crit/Skill Speed bow when they can make a relic with the same ilvl and pure Crit/D.Hit?

While farming for 20 of 4 different Unidentifiables or farming for Light are endlessly time-consuming, they can all be done doing relatively simple or mindless duties; time-consuming =/= difficult. Savage is the hardest content in the game after Ultimate, and for some it takes far more effort and time than grinding out tomes or tokens or light, so it’s more fair for the reward to be a better weapon. Besides, by the end of an expansion, relics catch up to Savage and become automatic BiS anyways. Let the Savage weapons have their period of relevancy.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

its still far more PERSONAL grind which should make it the best weapon.

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You’re grossly underestimating how much of a challenge endless is =(

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

You’re grossly underestimating how much of a challenge endless is =(

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This. And don't forget that you need all of Savage cleared and really good gear to even attempt Ultimate.

Relics are a joke in comparison.

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Originally Posted by Kazgrel

No. If the relic were equal to savage weapons during that particular patch cycle, there would be no point in any EX primal weapons at all, for starters. Going by the anima weapons and how they progressed, there’s no reason to hand out BiS each patch cycle by doing the same old dungeons we’ve done for years now. The relic becoming BiS stat wise by x.55 or whatever the final patch is works fine.

Besides, 90% of the appeal of relic weapons is glamour.

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I mean there's the fact that Relics require more playtime than some savage raiders even put into it,while you can just kill the Ex Primal of the patch and you're good to go.

Saying they're "handed out" is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Time =/= effort. Relics are always a mostly mindless grind, and as long as you can 1-2-3 decently you can get one.

EDIT: If relics actually required raiding, that would be another story...and would also prevent 95% or more of the playerbase from getting them. As it is, best weapons and armor should belong to those who need them and put in the real effort to getting them.

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DPS check + Avoid the fire check =/= Hard content.

The only "difficult" part of raids is dealing with the ego/elitism, that is why most people don't do it. Plus they know that in a few months the next ilvl gear will come out making all the time wasted in raids just that, wasted time.

Don't think that your wasted time is any better than another persons wasted time. You are just wasting your time...

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

You’re grossly underestimating how much of a challenge endless is =(

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It doesn't matter if people can clear it in less grind than a completed relic weapon. and I will see for myself after my static finishes with O4s. that's what we're doing next.

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DPS check + Avoid the fire check =/= Hard content.

The only "difficult" part of raids is dealing with the ego/elitism, that is why most people don't do it. Plus they know that in a few months the next ilvl gear will come out making all the time wasted in raids just that, wasted time.

Don't think that your wasted time is any better than another persons wasted time. You are just wasting your time...

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I disagree with this since I've done some savage and have seen how many mechanics happen at once. But I totally agree that the most difficult part of raiding is finding a group which doesn't have the jerks raiding has become famous for.

Elitism will kill raiding dead someday and those raiders who also happen to be scumbag elitists will only have themselves to blame for why MMO companies gave up on raiding
and decided to cater only to the easier to please crowd (some of the casuals who don't bother)