I'd never thought I'd be making this thread until for the first time ever, It happened to me today. I was put into a Keeper of the lake group that took over a hour. I was on dragoon, the other dps was a monk who just would not aoe despite the tank pulling multiple groups at a time, no rockbreaker, no howling fist, just single targeting 1 mob at a time in a group of 6+ every. single.pull. I was literally tp drained at the end of every single pack of mobs. I don't care what you have to do, add it into the halls of the novice and make it a mandatory quest or something, just anything because this is getting ridiculous. At least if you put something mandatory that attempts to teach players what the difference between the two types of abilities are you can at least say you tried to help these poor souls.
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11-19-2017, 02:25 PMSelovaPlease add a mandatory ST and AOE segment to the Halls of the Novice.
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11-19-2017, 05:05 PMZfz
But most classes simply don't have any AOE at level 15. It would probably have to be a special gating instanced duty at level 50. Special lesson given by Raubahn before entering the MSQ duty or something.
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11-19-2017, 05:08 PMSelova^ This. Bolded for emphasis. I'm completely fine with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zfz
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11-19-2017, 05:14 PMAstyrahi play ranged dps, but i think if back then when i first started playing, if melee had some form of gcd-aoe on the first few dungeons i probably would've tried melee more or possibly even main melee dps now. samurai, atleast, got some aoe around totorak but still....Quote:
Originally Posted by Zfz
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11-19-2017, 05:20 PMBillyKaplanThey could have it be part of the MSQ before storming the Castrums where you already have to run around Camp Bluefog and cheer up the troops. A military demonstration by the WoL to lift spirits. And it'll be so deliciously passive aggressive. Imagine the NPC overseeing it - "Now, I know you know this, but for the sake of our less experienced troops-- [proceeds to explain the basic concepts of aoe-ing down a pull]"Quote:
Originally Posted by Zfz
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11-19-2017, 05:32 PMDeaconMoore
Yes, yes let the rage flow thru you. Embrace it. Now realize even with something like this they will still only single target.
Mwhahaha
Seriously. -
11-19-2017, 05:52 PMHyoMinPark
Most classes have basic AOEs by the time they reach level 30, so I feel like an “Intermediate Hall of Novice” would be a really good addition to have for sprouts around this level. It could also serve to teach newer players about going from a class to a job, and educate them on the basics of their class’ job (perhaps have a way to tie it into the MSQ and/or class quests, to subsequently direct sprouts to the NPCs that give them their job quests, while also giving them some basics of how the job works when first starting out—I feel like this could be useful for tanks, since gladiator and marauder don’t have things like “tank stances”). As a reward, offer some nice level 30 gear, much like the original HoN does, that would last until level 35 or so (though those levels seem to just fly by anymore, don’t they?).
I always feel really sad when I see a sprout in a later dungeon without a job stone, and they say to me that they didn’t realize there was something after their level 30 class quest. Since the game no longer requires “X class to 30 and Y class to level 15”, the Intermediate HoN would be a particularly smooth transition from class to job, I think.
While also including basics for AOEing and single-targeting for DPS jobs, tank stance and mitigation for tanks, and stressing the importance of balancing healing and offensive magic for healers (and perhaps a section talking about pet usage and shields for SCH). It obviously can’t be too in-depth, but I still feel like this game needs something to at least attempt to teach people the importance of the AOE rotations. -
11-19-2017, 09:25 PMNocturniaUzuki
Players teaching players is probably already the best way to go about this. If there's a player that doesn't know how to AOE and you were trying to explain it to them, then they still didn't AOE or even try to figure it out, then they are choosing not to, in which case a new tutorial isn't going to help anyways.
We only learn if we want to learn, tutorial or no. -
11-19-2017, 10:48 PMKaethraWouldn't do any good. The monk that did that knows how to ST and AOE. They just chose not to. Its nearly impossible to fix laziness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selova
And being in Keeper of the Lake, the guy had advanced (assuming they weren't level 70) to a point to know the difference. They didn't care about you, the group, or anyone but themselves. They waited in a queue for however long it took and got a random group. They're not vested in your interest. They don't give a care what you think. They don't care about your feelings. They don't care about your time. They are getting theirs and thats all they care about. This is the nature of pugging.
Putting in trials and mandatory tutorials won't do a thing. WoW did this for its Mythics. It didn't help. They removed it because of how little of a purpose it served.
This couldn't be more true. Players that want to and can learn do. Those that don't want to or can't, don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
The ones that can't, are quite rare. They don't play FFXIV because quite simply.. they can't. The MSQ will thrust them into Dungeons they have no business being in. I've got a friend from many years ago that couldn't navigate the first telegraphed attacks that appeared in RIFT for an event. The event was easier than any dungeon in the game. They couldn't get out of the way. They just didn't have the manual dexterity for it. They could do open world quests fine, but not dungeons or group content. its a shame that I have to inform them that FFXIV would likely cause them to get stuck in the MSQ and they'd not be able to progress at all. But its the truth.
For everyone else. They ARE getting through the group Duty's and the Solo Story Duties which do have some interesting mechanics to them. So why aren't they learning? Oh they are. But like I said before, when they're doing a random queue with random strangers. They aren't going to try. Why should they? They're not vested in the group of strangers they'll never see again. No one they know is watching them. We're not allowed to 'judge' people's performance in DF. So they can get away with it. I'm surprised more of them don't simply auto follow during normal pulls (some do). And just 123 bosses (again, some do already).
This is a symptom of a problem that causes us to need a DF in the first place. A few months ago, I was playing on a EQ progression server. We had to form up groups the old fashioned way. You want to see people go crazy with DPS? You'll find it there. But there you have to impress your group. Doing so means they might invite ya again in the future. Something to be said about community buillding.
You want to see a fix? Require 4 people to be grouped when using Duty Finder for 4 mans, and 8 for the 8 mans. You'll see the most AOE-happy DPS in AOE situations you've ever seen. -
11-20-2017, 04:08 AMAomine1992
Unfortunately this would probably fix a small portion of players who do not actually understand aoes in this game.....as for others idk but I would like to touch on the fact that no dungeon actually takes over an hour even if the dps are single targeting unless you are in the lvl 50 MSQ dungeins....maybe a bit of a dramatization unless ppl were dying
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11-20-2017, 04:15 AMalimdiaIt's worth the try, many of those who disregard help from other players could probably accept it if the help isn't coming from other players.Quote:
Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki
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11-20-2017, 05:59 AMSelovaI understand what you are getting at and i agree to a extent, but i find that the "lazy, it's my sub i play how i want, ect." excuse does not apply to everyone, it's just the go-to excuse that we assume is the reason that these types of players use when we see someone with a odd play style, such as the one i mentioned in my OP. There honestly might be those out there that just don't know or just didn't read over their skill tool-tips carefully enough and they just need the knowledge. I think it would be beneficial to have a system in place that acts as a pseudo-tutorial that at least tries to teach these players the difference between aoe and single target abilities, as for if these players actually make use of the knowledge....well that's a different story entirely. Then it would fall on us, the community to try to help these players out and if at the end of the day even that isn't enough, we can all say we at least tried to help them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaethra
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11-20-2017, 02:56 PMTalraenI'd like to also propose the inverse of what the OP is asking for: some kind of training to tell tanks why mass pulling at level 15 is (depending on your DPS classes) a complete waste of time. The fact that I see this with like a monk and a dragoon in the party tells me that many tanks have no actual understanding of why mass pulling is even a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zfz
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11-20-2017, 04:15 PMShouko
That's probably a sign that the tank should slow down, people seem to think the tank controls the party, when in reality they don't, it's a group effort, the healer is usually needed to keep the party's health up, the tank is needed to keep the mobs from killing the rest of the party and the DPS is there to support and kill the mobs. Just because people don't want to AoE doesn't mean they should have to. Some people like to take it slow and aren't in a rush to get to the next dungeon, raid, or whatever.
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11-20-2017, 05:52 PMLodinnIt's not even that. Monk aoe currently is really bad. Not using rockbreaker is pretty bad (and not using oGCD Howling/Elixir is even worse) but I totally can understand MNK players who opt to aoe quite little even on huge pulls... because they don't have good means to rotationally aoe. Thanks to oGCDs, their aoe damage is still ok but comes in spikes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaethra
What I would LOVE to see is the intermediate hall of the novice like HyoMinPark mentioned but with player competing against himself. Making him to do duty with only aoe skill/combos available first and then the same but with ST rotation and telling the resulting time after. And pit him against 5-10 mobs or so.