Flexible DPS Limit Breaks

My raid group recently did a bit of restructuring and we found ourselves with no melee dps, so I changed jobs because I personally felt a lack of melee LB was a big deal. This got me thinking about the Limit break system from a dps point of view.

If in a future patch, the dev team added a way for dps to choose between Single Target, Line AoE or Circular AoE, would that be a positive change? What would it do to group compositions? Would some jobs suddenly be left out in the cold?

I'm not too sure this would ever happen, mainly because of the animations. Could you really see a BLMs Meteor doing ST damage? (They're definitely not going to create a bunch of new animations for all of the jobs, lets be real.)

If it were to be implemented, in most raid scenarios they would all just take the ST LB3, unless there's an add phase like in o3s. Then the user would be whoever it inconveniences the least. That would literally be the only change to the meta.

Edit: If you actually meant they had access to all three at the same time, then I would say it would make zero difference. No DPS jobs are selected based on their LB3, it's all down to utility and DPS numbers as usual.

I don't think they would do it because button bloat. Have to have three separate buttons just for the LB if you have one being single target, one being line AoE, and one being the normal caster circle AoE. While it is a good idea, just not practical.

easiest option here is to just have ranged LB's do damage according to how many enemies they hit. So if a ranged LB only hits one target, it does damage as if it were a single target LB. if two or more targets are in range, it does it's current damage.

Easy to code, easy to understand, no animation changes needed. Certainly, I don't think we need to give melee LB's ranged damage type options, that's hardly ever an issue.

I think the developers want to keep the LBs separate because they try to encourage diverse party compositions. The only issue I have with LBs is that the ranged one is really useless - can't remember any other significant fight where we've ever used it than Sephirot ex.

They should rework limit breaks perhaps. I've always liked the idea of each party member having their own personal limit break 1, 2 and 3; and being able to select which one they'd like to use. I'd go into more detail, but I currently have a headache and want to go sleep. XD

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Originally Posted by Taika

I think the developers want to keep the LBs separate because they try to encourage diverse party compositions. The only issue I have with LBs is that the ranged one is really useless - can't remember any other significant fight where we've ever used it than Sephirot ex.

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It was sometimes used as an oh-sh** LB when either the caster is down or when you don't have a caster in your group at all (DRG+NIN+MCH+BRD meta). The only advantage I can think of using the ranged LB, is the short animation lock compared to the caster one. But then again, it depends on the encounter and your composition.

As for the OP, I think we could have a system like the role actions, where you pick what kind of LB you can use: Either AoE, conal or single target. You can only pick one from the actions windows and you're locked until the encounter ends (wipe, clear, whatever)

I personally think the LB system needs an overhaul. The damage it does it nice, but in the end, all it does is shorten kill time by about 5-10 seconds. Heck, I've seen people refuse to LB because it hurts their personal dps.The only REALLY useful one is the healer one when you're failing hard.

I'd rather just see the system we have in PvP (everyone's LBs are separate); it would solve a lot of problems. It doesn't directly address your issue, but having a single melee LB would no longer be make-or-break. If they went this route though, they'd really need to ease up on the animation lock of LBs since everyone would probably use them more often (or make the animation spawn a clone of the player to do the long animation, while the player is still free to continue moving and hitting). We'd probably lose the ability of healer LBs to raise everyone, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I think the developers want to keep the LBs separate because they try to encourage diverse party compositions. The only issue I have with LBs is that the ranged one is really useless - can't remember any other significant fight where we've ever used it than Sephirot ex.

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And v3s unless you skip add phase.

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Originally Posted by FaileExperiment

easiest option here is to just have ranged LB's do damage according to how many enemies they hit. So if a ranged LB only hits one target, it does damage as if it were a single target LB. if two or more targets are in range, it does it's current damage.

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This would make the range LB stronger due to its versatility. I know that what we have right now isn't balanced, but that would simply flip the coin.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

And v3s unless you skip add phase.

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And a5s. And a10s if you didn't skip adds. After all, caster LB on 2 targets > melee LB on one so even caster LBing the boss+apanda on o3 would make sense if not for caster high personal dps. I can see SMN lbing there being the optimal solution in some compositions, however.
But in all cases mentioned caster LB is preferred over ranged LB. Ranged LB is harder to aim and *it deals less damage* (because they're support jobs, huh). I know BRD LB was reworked which brings me to the point...
Would it make ranged LB better if it just was damage reduction+hp/mana restore? It's still very niche but realistically ranged don't LB anyway and if it was half the tank lb mitigation and half the healer lb healing it could be useful (o4 springs to mind when sometimes after the healer death on some of the grand crosses the remaining healer has to deal with alma and heal lb usually doesn't help)?

Or the ranged could go the real support role of a buff that increases damage dealt, decreases damage received, increases movement, attack and cast speed as well as critical. Then divide the buffs strength appropriately and you have a true support limit break that depends on the players actual abilities.

That being said, I would like the limit break to be personal, though I don't think there is a reason to remove the revival from the healers limit breaks. It doubles the amount of party revivals in trials, yeah...so what?! If a party gets near-wiped twice, like that, either the healers are focusing too much on their own survival (hence why they are in the position to use them in the first place), or the party just isn't up for it and will wipe afterwards anyway. Besides, a personal limit break would also mean personal limit break gaining, and that could mean that the healers wouldn't even get to third level depending on their actions.

This would solve the issues of limit break being lost if anyone gets disconnected or leaves for whatever reason and is replaced (at least, for the party), as well as allow limit breaks in solo content...which honestly I don't know why is not allowed.

A unique limit break for every class would be nice too, but there's just so many "unique" ways of dealing damage...

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Originally Posted by Lodinn

And a5s. And a10s if you didn't skip adds. After all, caster LB on 2 targets > melee LB on one so even caster LBing the boss+apanda on o3 would make sense if not for caster high personal dps.

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We used caster LB on A5S and A10S and caster LB in OS3 is also higher DPS than ranged LB (although most groups use melee LB there anyway). Since caster LB is higher damage, it only makes sense to use ranged DPS in fights where you can't reach all targets with caster one, and the only case I can still think of is Sephirot ex... Since you could use caster one in all the examples you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I think the developers want to keep the LBs separate because they try to encourage diverse party compositions. The only issue I have with LBs is that the ranged one is really useless - can't remember any other significant fight where we've ever used it than Sephirot ex.

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Sadly, I often get ranged dps doing LB all the time when I am melee dps.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Sadly, I often get ranged dps doing LB all the time when I am melee dps.

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On SephEx? I was frankly surprised the first time i ever saw ranged LB there but i only got to do it when not relevant anymore. Also it's apparently a server-based difference, most groups from Odin i've met since would prefer melee LB, some groups from... Shiva? used notably different strats in the first part and were used to ranged LB as well.

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Originally Posted by Lodinn

On SephEx? I was frankly surprised the first time i ever saw ranged LB there but i only got to do it when not relevant anymore. Also it's apparently a server-based difference, most groups from Odin i've met since would prefer melee LB, some groups from... Shiva? used notably different strats in the first part and were used to ranged LB as well.

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Never done SephEx, was speaking in general.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I think the developers want to keep the LBs separate because they try to encourage diverse party compositions. The only issue I have with LBs is that the ranged one is really useless - can't remember any other significant fight where we've ever used it than Sephirot ex.

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I would love to see the ranged jobs get a damage buff LB. Then it would be different from caster LB.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This would make the range LB stronger due to its versatility. I know that what we have right now isn't balanced, but that would simply flip the coin.

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No, it would not be close to flipping the coin, at all. You can count the number of times a ranged/caster ever gets to use their LB with a melee in the group on one hand, so the "versatility" is hardly a noteworthy advantage. It would simply bring both ranged/caster/melee more on par with each other. Definitely more than they are now, so even if what you say is true (it isn't) it's still far better than what currently exists without complicating things unnecessarily.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Sadly, I often get ranged dps doing LB all the time when I am melee dps.

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Only question I have: Do you try to use LB when it's ready, or when the boss is at less than 5%? Because if it's being saved to kill the boss, then it's basically wasted. Since I main RDM, whenever I get paired with a melee that doesn't use the LB when it's ready, I will pop it because of the fact that most of that damage would have gone to waste using it for a killing blow(most of the time).

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Only question I have: Do you try to use LB when it's ready, or when the boss is at less than 5%? Because if it's being saved to kill the boss, then it's basically wasted. Since I main RDM, whenever I get paired with a melee that doesn't use the LB when it's ready, I will pop it because of the fact that most of that damage would have gone to waste using it for a killing blow(most of the time).

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Yes. In dungeons at least, half of the melee that use limit break use it at the very end of bosses life, and I mean really end. Many of them don't even manage to get the skills cast go off before the other three members actually kill it.

And on longer fights, not using it when it's ready (unless it is saved for a specific phase, like at Chrysalis, for the meteor), means that you won't get another limit break which could be possible otherwise (even if one-bar one).

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Only question I have: Do you try to use LB when it's ready, or when the boss is at less than 5%? Because if it's being saved to kill the boss, then it's basically wasted. Since I main RDM, whenever I get paired with a melee that doesn't use the LB when it's ready, I will pop it because of the fact that most of that damage would have gone to waste using it for a killing blow(most of the time).

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Answer: I use LB whenever it's filled and ready and (preferrably) I don't have an important part in my rotation. If I have to use LB when fully buffed it's damage wasted as well and sometimes it's possible to delay LB but hard to delay the burst. In dungeons usually I would aim for no lower than 5% of boss hp, 10% if group dps is good. When playing NIN or having a BRD/MCH I'll try to LB asap to get the boss in the execute range. Basically I treat LB as just another class ability which I should try to fit into my rotation efficiently.
That being said, caster LB on the last boss in Bardam is a thing, and sometimes LBing trash is more worth, too.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Sadly, I often get ranged dps doing LB all the time when I am melee dps.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Only question I have: Do you try to use LB when it's ready, or when the boss is at less than 5%? Because if it's being saved to kill the boss, then it's basically wasted. Since I main RDM, whenever I get paired with a melee that doesn't use the LB when it's ready, I will pop it because of the fact that most of that damage would have gone to waste using it for a killing blow(most of the time).

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In dungeons, LB should be used by an AoEer to do an obscene amount of damage on a trash pull. Meleeing a midboss with an LB is a waste.

Once at the final boss, it should be a melee LB, unless the specific boss calls for raining down destruction from the heavens (e.g., last boss of Sohm Al HM).



AoE LB1 on two targets outdamages melee LB1.
AoE LB1 on four targets outdamages melee LB2.
AoE LB1 on seven targets outdamages melee LB3.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Only question I have: Do you try to use LB when it's ready, or when the boss is at less than 5%? Because if it's being saved to kill the boss, then it's basically wasted. Since I main RDM, whenever I get paired with a melee that doesn't use the LB when it's ready, I will pop it because of the fact that most of that damage would have gone to waste using it for a killing blow(most of the time).

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Half the time they use it the instant bar fills while I am on GCD.