Streamlining Warrior Stances

I think the Warrior stances might be made simpler.

My problem with them currently is that you have to use two different commands to change stances, because there's three states once you get Deliverance:

1)Normal

2)Defiance

3)Deliverance

But for all practical situations, once you have Deliverance you don't really need to be in normal stance anymore: Deliverance has no downside, adds 5% damage, and most importantly, doesn't reset your gauge to zero.

Now, if Warrior didn't gain Deliverance and its skills after the Defiance skills, there wouldn't be a problem: just make the DPS position the basic stance, the DPS actions the basic ones, and make them turn into different skills during Defiance. In fact, since PVP doesn't have such a problem, PVP Warrior is already designed like that. Only one button to switch between stance and no stance, and no accidental gauge dropping if you press the wrong one.

I think it's definitely possible to streamline the normal Warrior like that, but which changes would have to be done to skill acquisition to make it like that?

Skill acquired after level 52, obviously, wouldn't have to change much: in fact, at level 52, we could have Deliverance be a trait that gives you a 5% passive boost to damage when not using Defiance.

The core problem are Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, and Unchained.

For Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone is simple enough to keep a setup similar to the current one:

Drop Fell Cleave to level 35 with a potency of 300, make it turn into Inner Beast when under Defiance, and make a trait at level 54 to give it an extra 200 potency.

Similarly, have Decimate at level 45, make it turn into Steel Cyclone when under Defiance, and trait it at 60 to give the extra 80 potency.

Unchained is a bit more complicated, I guess, since it has no overlapping effect with Inner Release. It would be possible however to have Inner Release at 50 with the status-nullify effects, make it turn into Unchained during Defiance, and add the Beast Gauge reduction effect at 70 as a trait.

These changes would boost Warrior a bit at lower levels (mainly between 35 and 54), but let's be honest, it's way outdated content, and there's been much greater balance changes in the past few months. Also let's be honest, playing stanceless Warrior until level 50 is a drag, it's literally just doing the same combos over and over without a gauge. Plus I'm pretty sure it's lost some DPS with the change to stat weights.

The benefits would be: no more useless stanceless position, one less button needed, no more accidents during stance change, not having to do many adjustments to your playstyle when playing in low level content, and no change at all in the overall class balance at level 70.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elfolampo

Drop Fell Cleave to level 35 with a potency of 300, make it turn into Inner Beast when under Defiance, and make a trait at level 54 to give it an extra 200 potency.

---

Personally, I think Fell Cleave could stay as it is, because as you said, 35-54 is now old content. What I would do, however, is remove Inner Beast and just make Fell Cleave absorbs HP and reduce damage taken when used under Defiance, but still be affected by the damage penalty.

This is one of those 'changes for the sake of changing' things that I'm kinda 'eh' about. Sure, Deliverance is seen as the default stance, and there is no legitimate reason to not have a stance on at all times aside from level 50, but I personally don't think that removing deliverance really does much for the job aside from just saying you got rid of the stance.

Less buttons to press. I think that's also the reason why the removed the two poisons from NIN.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DaulBan

This is one of those 'changes for the sake of changing' things that I'm kinda 'eh' about. Sure, Deliverance is seen as the default stance, and there is no legitimate reason to not have a stance on at all times aside from level 50, but I personally don't think that removing deliverance really does much for the job aside from just saying you got rid of the stance.

---

The whole point it's that it's a quality of life change, rather than a balance one. It might not do much for the job per se, but it makes things simpler for the players. From a design standpoint, too, it's better to have 2 stances and 1 button than 3 stances and 2 buttons, if a stance is useless. Considering how it works in PVP, if the class was designed today, and wasn't built in successive steps over different expansions, I'm pretty sure it would already work like this or similarly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elfolampo

Considering how it works in PVP, if the class was designed today, and wasn't built in successive steps over different expansions, I'm pretty sure it would already work like this or similarly.

---

Frankly, if macros were not slower than native GCD, they would have replaced most of my WS a long time ago so that each combo uses only one slot.

They really should give use the combo buttons as a prebuilt alternative.

Usability tweaks for Warrior were mentioned for 4.2 in the live letter, so I guess there's some hope.

You could have Deliverance just be traited instead of a button. The same could be said about Sword Oath for PLD. No reason to not be in an oath. In PvP they don't even have deliverance and FC is part of Normal Stance.

The only change that I think would be at all warranted would be to either:

1. Generate Wrath (gauge) and retain Wrath previously generated with all abilities that normally generate Wrath, even when outside of Defiance / Deliverance, but limit their spending to when in Defiance / Deliverance.
- or -
2. Retain Wrath (gauge) generated previously and allow access to Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone, but without their second additional effect (mitigation, bonus enmity). Cannot generate Wrath except when in Defiance / Deliverance.

In either case it would make more sense for Deliverance to provide no bonus damage, but for all Marauder/Warrior potencies to be increased by that 5%. Deliverance gives the ability first to generate Wrath without a damage penalty, and then provides even more damage-form abilities thereafter.

They could make deliverance a trait that is active automatically when defiance is not in use. Just an idea, not really for or against it. Personally I think WAR is in a good spot right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elfolampo

They really should give use the combo buttons as a prebuilt alternative.

---

It's called a skill ceiling for a reason, though. Look at how delighted all the Dark Knight mains were when their job got gutted into brain dead simplicity. They surely didn't write a dozen snark-filled threads complaining about how much they hated the changes, because they loved them that much. Warrior's got a brilliant play style as is. That's why I like it better than Paladin. Why mess with a good thing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Galgarion

It's called a skill ceiling for a reason, though. Look at how delighted all the Dark Knight mains were when their job got gutted into brain dead simplicity. They surely didn't write a dozen snark-filled threads complaining about how much they hated the changes, because they loved them that much. Warrior's got a brilliant play style as is. That's why I like it better than Paladin. Why mess with a good thing?

---

Button consolidation for 123 combos aren't reducing a skill ceiling, they're reducing button bloat, which in turn allows for the return / addition of new weaponskills that aren't part of combos, such as Scourge, Fracture, Mutilate, and so forth, which raises the skill ceiling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elfolampo

They really should give use the combo buttons as a prebuilt alternative.

---

I for one hope this never happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by elfolampo

They really should give use the combo buttons as a prebuilt alternative.

---

I feel like this option works for PvP because of the fact that PvP is basically a super simplified version of PvE against other players. Personally, I can see combo buttons as maybe a very specific macro for very specific classes, like BRD when you can use Pitch Perfect/Refulgent arrow, that could change to whatever situational skill you need, but otherwise does not account for a majority of decision making. Since this thread is specifically about WAR, I'll use it as an example. It has 1 starter, 2 mid combo extenders, and 3 finishers. So, to be able to use any finisher when you want to, you would still need 3 slots on an action bar. So really, would it help anything? Probably not.

That is however, just my opinion, and opinions are as varied and as different as the people who hold them. Perhaps it would help some people to make the class more usable, but I'm with Galgarion on this, part of an MMO is managing your hotbars and keybinds, and knowing your job well/knowing what you need to do at all times. That is, after all, the spirit of an MMO player who ends up progressing in Extreme/Savage/Ultimate(Abbrev. E/S/U) content versus someone who can't get past Extreme content.

TL;DR: I don't care if they're in the game, but I personally see no need for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

Since this thread is specifically about WAR, I'll use it as an example. It has 1 starter, 2 mid combo extenders, and 3 finishers. So, to be able to use any finisher when you want to, you would still need 3 slots on an action bar. So really, would it help anything? Probably not.

---

I don't see why anyone would be against reducing 6 buttons down to 3. I would certainly like to see it. I've never seen any valid argument for not doing it, aside from the ambiguous "I don't like it". So long as they don't do what PvP currently does and prevent you from setting the intermediary actions on your bar, having both options available should satisfy both parties.

With that said, this isn't really on the same topic as the OP, so I feel the need to throw in my two cents on the original topic: No thanks. Warrior stances are fine as-is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wintersandman

You could have Deliverance just be traited instead of a button. The same could be said about Sword Oath for PLD. No reason to not be in an oath. In PvP they don't even have deliverance and FC is part of Normal Stance.

---

The change to Sword Oath, turning it into a trait, would be a definite buff unlike this suggested change to Warrior stances, however -- since you can't turn Defiance off for 10 seconds after activation anyways.

Though I honestly think that would still make for a greater quality of play for Paladin and tanks in general, though Shield Oath should probably then come at higher mana cost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

I don't see why anyone would be against reducing 6 buttons down to 3.

---

One simple reason:

Muscle Memory.

If someone has learned using 6 keys at their best efficiency, purposefully lowering it to 3 keys to reduce button bloat (while I think Warrior doesn't even have that many buttons to press...) is rather damaging the efficiency of hard-trained muscle memory for the gameplay. For this simple reason I simply can't bring it over myself to PvP without putting the Rage of Halone combo key accross 1-2-3 and the Royal Authority combo key on 4-5 so I could mimic my combo how it was in PVE.

Even if the option was there, I doubt enough people would eventually use it to make this a thing. Mind you the dumbed down combo keys for PvP dont ONLY contain positive feedback for what they stand for...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raldo

I don't see why anyone would be against reducing 6 buttons down to 3. I would certainly like to see it. I've never seen any valid argument for not doing it, aside from the ambiguous "I don't like it". So long as they don't do what PvP currently does and prevent you from setting the intermediary actions on your bar, having both options available should satisfy both parties.

With that said, this isn't really on the same topic as the OP, so I feel the need to throw in my two cents on the original topic: No thanks. Warrior stances are fine as-is.

---

I agree with you on Warrior stances, the class is in a good place, they can focus on Dark Knight now that Warrior and Paladin don't need any significant changes. However, I appear to have explained my "stance"(;3c) on the PvP macros in PvE a little poorly, so I'll try to explain a little more clearly. In the end, you're still hitting all the same buttons, yes? So two of those macros are in essence the exact same two buttons, then a different finisher. Part of what I think shows mastery over a class and skill in an MMO is bar utilization and layout. It's somewhat like Reinhardt_Azureheim said, you learn based on familiarity and repetition. finding places on my hotbars or finding keybinds that work for all of the skills the class uses is part of what I find fun about MMOs.

To me, having only three buttons instead of six would be more boring, I wouldn't have to be usingmy brain nearly as much if everything was condensed down into two or three buttons for six skills. For other people, though, who don't share my feelings this could work better for them, maybe six skills was just too much space taken up and they haven't memorized their bars because they're not a perfectionist. Then the PvP style macro system would work for them better. I know it would definitely be better for console, since I find the gamepad controls very clunky and not made for smoothness of execution.

TL;DR: I wouldn't care if they were put in, and I'm not against them being put in. However my reasoning is not an ambiguous, "I don't like it" so much as it is personal preference and enjoyment.

I think just making the 2 warrior stances into one toggle button would be fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvina

I think just making the 2 warrior stances into one toggle button would be fine.

---

That's actually not a bad idea at all. It would work for PLD too, but not DRK. :(
Still, I think that making them toggle like their unique skills is actually the one thing that maybe WAR could use, even then it would prolly just be a QoL buff and therefore given low priority. SE could also make it an option if you want it to be a toggle or two different skills.

WAR already uses the least buttons of all 3 tanks, due to having 6 of our skills squeezed into 3 hotkeys. Reducing button bloat on a job with no button bloat is not worth changing how it works at lower levels. Not to mention being able to drop stances altogether is actually useful for quickly resetting beast gauge while testing rotations on a dummy.

As another WAR thread already said: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvina

I think just making the 2 warrior stances into one toggle button would be fine.

---

Second. Theres no advantage in having 2 buttons and 3 stances (Defiance, Deliverance, Nothing) when the exact same effect would work with 1 button 2 stances.

Theres no 'skill' argument.

"Im in defiance. I want to be in deliverance now" : Hit 1 button
"Im in deliverance. I want to be in defiance now" : Hit 1 button.

Its just as 'skillful' as toggling grit.

You walk into a room. Theres 2 switches. 1 turns the lights on when turned up. The other turns the SAME lights off when its turned up and forces the other down. wtf. Just have 1 switch lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

Second. Theres no advantage in having 2 buttons and 3 stances (Defiance, Deliverance, Nothing) when the exact same effect would work with 1 button 2 stances.

Theres no 'skill' argument.

"Im in defiance. I want to be in deliverance now" : Hit 1 button
"Im in deliverance. I want to be in defiance now" : Hit 1 button.

Its just as 'skillful' as toggling grit.

You walk into a room. Theres 2 switches. 1 turns the lights on when turned up. The other turns the SAME lights off when its turned up and forces the other down. wtf. Just have 1 switch lol.

---

There's the advantage of not pissing off the DRK community any further by demanding more unneeded changes. Maybe after they get the patch-up they've been asking for since Stormblood's launch, then we can ask for QoL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ekimmak

There's the advantage of not pissing off the DRK community any further by demanding more unneeded changes. Maybe after they get the patch-up they've been asking for since Stormblood's launch, then we can ask for QoL.

---

Don't be petty.

There's no 'line' for QOL requests. This isn't a 'War UP!! QQ' item while drks cast saltier earth in the corner. QOL should be supported for everyone on every class.

QoL=/=Balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Namingwayfinder

That's actually not a bad idea at all. It would work for PLD too, but not DRK. :(

---

You could have just one stance button for DRK, if it wasn't for Darksides annoying and kind of pointless restriction on MP refresh effects.

You never really need to turn Darkside off, it could literally be a trait with DRK just flicking grit on/off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

You could have just one stance button for DRK, if it wasn't for Darksides annoying and kind of pointless restriction on MP refresh effects.

You never really need to turn Darkside off, it could literally be a trait with DRK just flicking grit on/off.

---

In some fights it's usefull to drop Darkside, just for recover mana or, if you've a mage in your team like I have, to get a Mana Shift.
And I don't think DRK needs that. Our main combo is already DA-1-OGCD-2-DA-3... Even easier than the PLD, so, it's the contrary, he needs some new abilities.

Btw, I don't think WAR needs that too. I'm a main dps, and when I'm playing WAR, I just see a "easier" dps that Melee dps but with some CDs.

Reducing button bloat would really help controller users more than keyboard users. Even with macros I’m running out of space to slot in any other skills/actions/markers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StragoMagus

Reducing button bloat would really help controller users more than keyboard users. Even with macros I’m running out of space to slot in any other skills/actions/markers.

---

Yup. I would like to have access to ground markers and such on the fly. I always have to offload any mid-fight ground markers to someone on my static since they don't fit with what few number markers I can fit on my controller hotbars. Such a pain to have to go through the menu just to plop down A, B, C. I already had to move a few rarely used items to my keyboard like LB and sprint. But anything that requires camera movement like ground targets don't work with that work around taking your hands off the controller to hit a button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

You walk into a room. Theres 2 switches. 1 turns the lights on when turned up. The other turns the SAME lights off when its turned up and forces the other down. wtf. Just have 1 switch lol.

---

This isn't the best analogy to use here. I know what you are saying, but 3 and 4-way switches are a thing depending on how that room is configured. (Sorry, Electrician by trade, so it stuck out.)

I am honestly more surprised all the tanks don't already have a single stance toggle after the button reduction. In PvP we already have it working that way (Though I haven't taken a DRK in PvP so not sure how that works for them). Long-term thinking we're eventually going to get more skills right? So, making room now would plausibly be useful for keeping bloat down across the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

This isn't the best analogy to use here. I know what you are saying, but 3 and 4-way switches are a thing depending on how that room is configured. (Sorry, Electrician by trade, so it stuck out.)

I am honestly more surprised all the tanks don't already have a single stance toggle after the button reduction. In PvP we already have it working that way (Though I haven't taken a DRK in PvP so not sure how that works for them). Long-term thinking we're eventually going to get more skills right? So, making room now would plausibly be useful for keeping bloat down across the board.

---

Seconded on the PVP thing. I forgot about that. It works just fine there. The coding already exists. Copypasta prz. Drk works just like youd think. Grit. No grit. 1 button in PVP.

Lol yeah you 'can' do it, but multiple switches that work in concert are either to support 2 locations (kitchen switch when you walk in the door. Second switch for the same light leaving the kitchen 20 feet away), or they are 2 switches that are related but not the same creating a binary system. 2 switches=4 options. 0,0. 0,1. 1,0. 1,1. Maybe they are planning on giving us 4 stances to work with in the future like mudra combinations!!!! Patch 5.0. Defialiverance is coming! You heard it here 1st! :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aana

Maybe they are planning on giving us 4 stances to work with in the future like mudra combinations!!!! Patch 5.0. Defialiverance is coming! You heard it here 1st! :P

---

Hybrid stances maybe? Lol

A "mudra style" tank would be interesting, like a rune knight that mixes and matches runes? That actually sounds interesting conceptually. When a 4th tank eventually gets released, who knows what kind of gimmick that SE would give that tank. That, however, is a different thread.

I actually proposed something "similar" to this as a dark knight rework and I believe someone's comment was it would work well as a rune knight. love to know what you think. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...design-For-Fun

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Personally, I think Fell Cleave could stay as it is, because as you said, 35-54 is now old content. What I would do, however, is remove Inner Beast and just make Fell Cleave absorbs HP and reduce damage taken when used under Defiance, but still be affected by the damage penalty.

---

Remove decimate amd keep steel cyclone and do the same imo. Steel cyclone much better looking animation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

I actually proposed something "similar" to this as a dark knight rework and I believe someone's comment was it would work well as a rune knight. love to know what you think. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...design-For-Fun

---

Will do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NyneSwordz

Remove decimate amd keep steel cyclone and do the same imo. Steel cyclone much better looking animation.

---

Steel Cyclone has always been one of my favorite animations. In regards to Decimate, it does seem kind of redundant, but a big self-heal that could be spammed in Deliverance might be a hard sell.

I meant replace the animation only, but remove heals amd increase potency while in deliverance