AST Sects: Should it go both ways?

I mean really, is there any really good reason for Diurnal to be 10% and Nocturnal 15%? Why not both 15% or both 10%? Feel free to discuss how AST would be if both Sects were identical in healing potency increase.

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Originally Posted by Joe777

I mean really, is there any really good reason for Diurnal to be 10% and Nocturnal 15%? Why not both 15% or both 10%? Feel free to discuss how AST would be if both Sects were identical in healing potency increase.

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The sects are there to act like one of the other healers. The extra 5% is to simulate the extra healing the fairy provides a scholar.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

The sects are there to act like one of the other healers. The extra 5% is to simulate the extra healing the fairy provides a scholar.

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The fairy is more than 5%

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

The fairy is more than 5%

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Actually just counting embrace she is actually roughly 5-6% of our healing.

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Actually just counting embrace she is actually roughly 5-6% of our healing.

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Not true. Assuming you're not a Physick Mage, and your cohealer is healing alongside you, Embrace usually covers around 15 - 20% of our healing based on the fight. (These are values I took from my own "data" of o1-4 savage.)

So yes, the Faerie is more than 5% of our healing, however the overall healing kit of AST is also stronger than ours, so that needs to be taken into consideration. I can only assume they came up with 10% and 15% to keep the sects competitive with their counterparts, taking the entire kits of each job into account.

It was 15% for both on the preview. But a lot of people felt AST already had enough of an edge over WHM that 15% was excessive.

this is exactly why i gave up ast for this expansion....the sects were perfect before they changed it. now there's no real reason to use diurnal unless you just feel like it.

Noct is trash in comparison to Diurnal in terms of throughput. HoTs overall are stronger than shielding and can be manipulated by dilation/CO. N.Ast also falls short of sch in every way possible when they're competing for the same raid spot.

Noct was always the black sheep of the two sects throughout HW, it's still comparatively weaker now even after all the little buffs and tweaks it's received. I think it was pretty competitive for 4.0 as WHM/AST was a very safe pair of hands to be in for progression, but 4.1's SCH changes have tipped the scales back away from Noct again IMHO.

The difference in my throughput when I'm switching between Noct AST or WHM for various Ult Coil pugs is night and day though =/

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Originally Posted by bugmancer

this is exactly why i gave up ast for this expansion....the sects were perfect before they changed it. now there's no real reason to use diurnal unless you just feel like it.

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When you're the only healer then I agree, I much prefer Nocturnal. But if there is 2 AST in the party or a SCH and an AST then Diurnal should be used.

I only bother with Diurnal in stuff like dungeons, dailies and roulettes. It allows you to DPS more with the regens up. Noct is better suited for end game content imo but it really comes down to what your cohealer is.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

N.Ast also falls short of sch in every way possible when they're competing for the same raid spot.

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Except for... you know... actual mitigation and party utility.

Scholar offers more party utility and raid damage contribution than Nocturnal Astrologian. The dps discrepancy between the two classes is already anywhere from 500-800 at the 95th+ percentile, not factoring in chain stratagem, the opening fey wind, or how scholar is the only healer class that can elevate the dps of their co-healer without negatively impacting their own. A majority of the higher tiered parses on Astro are also obtained by leaning and pushing on Eos's ability to carry the brunt of the required HPS as well as scholar's OGCDs. 50% balance uptime (which is generous) for an entire party pushing 30k raid-wide dps, is only 750 + lul rng. In addition, regardless of how "big dick" Astro's shields are, they will never make up for the amount of free healing that Eos brings to a raid. Both first and second Ultimate Coil clears were with sch/whm, so obviously there's no impactful shortcomings in scholar's mitigation.

Personally, I think the devs need to choose if AST is going to focus on HoTs or mitigation, design the job around that, removing the sects, and add a new healer in the future to take up the dropped sects place.
As it stands, the balance between N.AST and SCH changes far more radically then between D.AST and WHM, with one receiving a buff and making the other inferior.
I think the sects also create a balancing issue within AST themselves because both are pretty much treated as two separate jobs in hardcore content, valuing different secondary stats and using their respective effects at different times (before or after a big hit).

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Both first and second Ultimate Coil clears were with sch/whm, so obviously there's no impactful shortcomings in scholar's mitigation.

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I agree with most of what you've said, but this point is a little silly. Two clears can hardly conclude anything, especially given the world first had a DRK in it.

Then some Japanese group will magically solo something with a N.AST and people will be in awe of it again. None of the healers are bad, including N.AST. It just doesn't outclass SCH in every way since the 4.1 buffs. I also agree with Mimilu, and actually this was a suggestion of mine way back in 3.4 or 3.5. The idea that better balance could be achieved by making AST a direct competitor with WHM and introducing a new healer to compete with SCH. Unfortunately we got no new healer, but at least they sorted out the WHM being dead issue.

I hate using outlying information to make a point as well, but the gist of it was to prove that at adequate skill levels scholar can overcome their shortcomings in raw mitigation. In my opinion they have more than enough % mitigation to make up for the paltry loss in shield potency, if not exceeding it in output. It sets precedence for content of similar intensity in the future I guess is what I was getting at, we'll see as more clears come up. Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast
would have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

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Nope, you're absolutely bang on with that assessment IMHO, I'm having to pug and cover other groups to get my coil fix and as such, more often than not I'm having to run N.AST as I didn't bother levelling SCH. Right from the get go there's plenty of occasions where an AST has a comparatively hard time getting galvs up in time for mechanics. SCH's options simply work better here.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

I hate using outlying information to make a point as well, but the gist of it was to prove that at adequate skill levels scholar can overcome their shortcomings in raw mitigation. In my opinion they have more than enough % mitigation to make up for the paltry loss in shield potency, if not exceeding it in output. It sets precedence for content of similar intensity in the future I guess is what I was getting at, we'll see as more clears come up. Personally progressing through Ultimate on SCH I see many points where I think that N.Ast have an much harder time working through, but that's from the viewpoint of someone who's a "meh" Astro on a good day

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That's not the argument you originally made, though. You said that N.AST falls short of SCH in every way, which... they don't. The fact that SCH's mitigation is potentially enough for a given fight does not negate the fact that N.AST's mitigation is objectively stronger.

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Originally Posted by Riyshn

That's not the argument you originally made, though. You said that N.AST falls short of SCH in every way, which... they don't. The fact that SCH's mitigation is potentially enough for a given fight does not negate the fact that N.AST's mitigation is objectively stronger.

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It depends on how you look at it though. If SCH can mitigate everything just fine, then AST having better shields doesn't really give it an advantage over SCH. So while you're not technically wrong, neither is Crein.

I do think Crein is right in that SCH does quite a bit better than N.AST ever since the 4.1 changes. The issue is that they can never seem to get the balance between the two shielders right, and I'd rather they not go down the route of buffing AST every fortnight.

In my opinion, the issue is simply SCHs core design. I think SCH synergizes the best with both WHM and AST, and AST just doesn't have the tools or design to do the same. They can keep buffing the healing to N.sect, but WHM doesn't require their partner to have big heals, so it's almost irrelevant. Then when we go to the DPS side, AST has the potential to boost more, but it's completely gated by RNG, and generally a SCHs DPS utility will still be better when factoring in their own higher DPS. ASTs saving grace right now is that D.AST is still very strong, and N.AST isn't trash. But in the future, it really would be good if they completely removed the sects, gave AST one focus and brought in a new healer to directly compete with what SCH brings to a healing duo.

(They've basically recreated the SMN/SCH struggle in one job if you think about it.)

Stronger is not better. Frequency available, ease of use, opportunity cost all factor into the overall scope of how x can be better than y. N.Ast lacks the output to contend with scholar right now in it's current state; that's my opinion. We can nitpick potencies and the strengths of certain abilities but I don't really care for much more than what a class can output and what it costs to drive that output.

I really do think throwing a new healer into the mix that emulates scholars strengths while being different would be super healthy for the game tho. I think it's near impossible to balance a class that has a duty to cover for two different types of play styles. Hopefully when that happens this buff-buff teeter totter thingy they have going on won't be as apparent.

@Sebazy the difference on twin alone I imagine to be night and day. Scholar can pretty much cover for 90% of the healing done without casting a single healing GCD. I enjoy it a lot haha

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Originally Posted by Miles_Maelstrom

Actually just counting embrace she is actually roughly 5-6% of our healing.

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Not to mention whispering done is the strongest HoTs

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Originally Posted by bugmancer

this is exactly why i gave up ast for this expansion....the sects were perfect before they changed it. now there's no real reason to use diurnal unless you just feel like it.

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Or you are co-healing with a SCH. D.AST have regens that don't overwrite the SCH's barriers. Or if you are with another AST and he's Noct.

In those cases, Diurnal is better for the party.

i agree that sch and whm are better at their respective abilities and now the sects just feel like a cheap imitation. whm ast was a solid combo in end game content of hw and now i think it's leaning more whm sch. sch got so many quality of life changes that ast doesn't compare to either healers as it sits now... i am mearly complaining at the lack of versatility. i main all heals and i'm used to picking and chosing based on which is stronger in the situation. stormblood additions to ast are just incredibly underwhelmimg

and to clarify my original reply was speaking in terms of healing in 4 man content. the regen counter on diurnal is just too short and the lack of spell speed makes dpsing feel hardly worth the effort. just a personal impression

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

Scholar offers more party utility

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????? How????

AST card system is literally more utility than both other healers put together. The Card system also IS part of our DPS. Raising the DPS or the entire team with balance, arrow, and spear is the reason out personal DPS skills are weaker. If we had the same power in our spells we would be obliterating the other two healers. You absolutely must take into account the card system when talking about AST DPS.

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Originally Posted by bugmancer

whm ast was a solid combo in end game content of hw and now i think it's leaning more whm sch.... stormblood additions to ast are just incredibly underwhelmimg

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No, it really wasn't. It was viable, but as of 3.3 and more so 3.4, AST/SCH was the best by far. WHM is great now, and their healing kit is a lot easier to use compared to AST, hence why we're seeing them in Ultimate groups. However once everyone knows the fight, and understands ES timings and so on, AST/SCH is still technically the better comp for pushing the most DPS, providing you don't need the amount of healing output WHM can bring.

As for your second point, I think it's all subjective. Personally I think on release WHM got the most love, AST got the AoE they needed, and SCH got gutted the most. The most recent changes have balanced everything out quite nicely, SCH might have an edge over N.AST now, but it isn't as bad as 4.0 where N.AST literally did everything better. Each healing comp is good, not just viable.

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Originally Posted by Maku

AST card system is literally more utility than both other healers put together.

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It's mainly to do with the RNG of the cards. AST has the potential to buff more significantly, but pairing Selene's Fey Wind with Chain Strategem and SCHs own better DPS, supposedly the party utility is not that different. And with SCHs tools not being gated by RNG, some would prefer it. There's a post about it on Reddit somewhere if you go and search, they go into a lot more detail and calcs etc.

i don't disagree with any of your points since you provide convincing support but i think it's just a perception i have from the later patches of hw. i once cleared a sophia ex pre-patched using nocturnal sect when my co healer was a sch and couldn't handle the aoe demand for that fight specifically. that was with minimal item level as well but if you're speaking in terms of basic toolkits and the average player i would agree that ast is still very useable.

on another personal note i really miss disable and i wish the lady card was a more reliable clutch in most cases. but considering how many other classes got healing buffs i think it all depends on the perfect, co op team to really shine.

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Originally Posted by Maku

????? How????

AST card system is literally more utility than both other healers put together. The Card system also IS part of our DPS. Raising the DPS or the entire team with balance, arrow, and spear is the reason out personal DPS skills are weaker. If we had the same power in our spells we would be obliterating the other two healers. You absolutely must take into account the card system when talking about AST DPS.

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SCH's party utility isn't just DPS buffs, ie. Chain Stratagem and opener Fey Wind. The core of SCH's utility is the GCD and resource free healing output that Eos brings. NoctAST's cards cannot match the DPS windows SCH opens not only for themselves but for the other healer as well, given that NoctAST has absolutely no sustained HoT save for Collective, and has to sacrifice a great deal of personal DPS to do the same function, both for themselves and the WHM, a job which already suffers from GCD vs oGCD efficiency "problems."

SCH not only has shields that are now very competitive (and even unparalleled, in the case of a buffed Deployment), but also brings a very significant amount of HoTs that cost absolutely no GCD or MP in the form of Embrace, Whispering Dawn and Fey Union.

To make things a bit simpler, SCH is way, way more efficient at doing their base job, which is healing, and in turn helps the other healer be way more efficient as well, regardless of what job it is. This is the reason that A12S clears that tried to go double AST for the massive Balance uptime were still slower than the clears bringing a SCH.

I personally think the utility tools both bring are pretty comparable, but in the end I feel like SCH definitely wins out due to a bunch of factors already discussed in the thread.

I was really hoping Astro would get a "Twilight" Ability in the Storm blood expansion that would allow them to execute their next Aspected Action in the opposing Sect. Being able to cast a barrier every 90 seconds in Diurnal or a HoT in Nocturnal would really solidify their healing toolkit.