SiO isn't enough.

SEnix please. WAR's are in serious trouble now. WAR's damage is still not where it needs to be, and after seeing DRK get the world first clear of UCoB it's beyond obvious that *YOU* did not do enough to bring WAR up to par. WAR needs to do more damage now more than ever if WAR's ever to clear UCoB.

WAR's changes to it's gauge cost, potencies, and the new SiO are just not enough. SE please, where's the love for the BEST tank class?

It's become clear that the most critical issue facing FFXIV's tank balance is that Fell Cleave must be boosted up to 700 potency, and have the mitigation effect from Inner Beast applied to it.

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Originally Posted by Crater

It's become clear that the most critical issue facing FFXIV's tank balance is that Fell Cleave must be boosted up to 700 potency, and have the mitigation effect from Inner Beast applied to it.

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Not only that, you're literally carving up your target with spinning death blades of ultra death! Why doesn't that generate enmity?! I know if someone hit me with a chainsaw, I'd be pretty upset.

Inner Release needs to be a self buff that doesn't fall off. Reduced costs for everyone. Cleave for days.

Wut
WAR is perfect right now.
Have you ever considered that if the player played a DRK, it's because he likes it?
Also, DRK rotation is far easier than the WAR's one.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Inner Release needs to be a self buff that doesn't fall off. Reduced costs for everyone. Cleave for days.

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I don't raid, but buffing Fell Cleave up to 1k potency and making Berserk negate %50 dmg would help the filthy casuals, like me.

Give WAR Hallowed Ground and let SiO make it AOE :3
Perfectly balanced.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Give WAR Hallowed Ground and let SiO make it AOE :3
Perfectly balanced.

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I mean, the changes to SiO were made to bring WAR up to par with PLD and DRK's party utility. If WAR still hasn't been able to clear UCoB, maybe they still need more utility as /well/ as more damage.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

I mean, the changes to SiO were made to bring WAR up to par with PLD and DRK's party utility. If WAR still hasn't been able to clear UCoB, maybe they still need more utility as /well/ as more damage.

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I assumed you were being satirical, but I have to ask. You're not serious are you?

It's simply that the groups that have WAR haven't cleared yet. And that's not because of WAR, it's because they just haven't got the fight down well enough yet while the group that happened to have the DRK did.

If we go off of your train of thought, we'd need to buff AST because World first bought WHM/SCH.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I assumed you were being satirical, but I have to ask. You're not serious are you?

It's simply that the groups that have WAR haven't cleared yet. And that's not because of WAR, it's because they just haven't got the fight down well enough yet while the group that happened to have the DRK did.

If we go off of your train of thought, we'd need to buff AST because World first bought WHM/SCH.

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((100% satire. If I really wanted to become a toxic person I could say the same thing about SMN (which the WF team dropped for BRD if what I read on reddit (lol) is tue), AST, MNK, SAM, RDM, and BLM.
This is more in response to all of those people who're turning around and saying "DRK was in WF, they're 100% viable (which was never the issue) so stfu and git gud" here and elsewhere.))

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Originally Posted by Azerhan

Wut
WAR is perfect right now.
Have you ever considered that if the player played a DRK, it's because he likes it?
Also, DRK rotation is far easier than the WAR's one.

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The joke has gone so far over your head that it's currently lost somewhere way up in space.

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Originally Posted by Vallamaria

The joke has gone so far over your head that it's currently lost somewhere way up in space.

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Ah x) I wasn't sure it was a joke, but I'm so triggered by the DRK those times...

Fell Cleave should be a multi hit skill, each strike is 700 potency. I would say having fell cleave strike ten times is fair.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

SEnix please. WAR's are in serious trouble now. WAR's damage is still not where it needs to be, and after seeing DRK get the world first clear of UCoB it's beyond obvious that *YOU* did not do enough to bring WAR up to par. WAR needs to do more damage now more than ever if WAR's ever to clear UCoB.

WAR's changes to it's gauge cost, potencies, and the new SiO are just not enough. SE please, where's the love for the BEST tank class?

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So WAR is bad just because one of the WORLD FIRST tanks prefers to play DRK over WAR? Stop smoking funny things...

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Originally Posted by Awha

Fell Cleave should be a multi hit skill, each strike is 700 potency. I would say having fell cleave strike ten times is fair.

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They should also get Barrage from Bard, so they get 28,000 potency hits every fell cleave. That's the only way I can see them fixing WAR.
Probably nerf DRKs Dark Mind too.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

SEnix please. WAR's are in serious trouble now. WAR's damage is still not where it needs to be, and after seeing DRK get the world first clear of UCoB it's beyond obvious that *YOU* did not do enough to bring WAR up to par. WAR needs to do more damage now more than ever if WAR's ever to clear UCoB.

WAR's changes to it's gauge cost, potencies, and the new SiO are just not enough. SE please, where's the love for the BEST tank class?

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I recommend warriors get a new fell cleave which does 50% of the boss's max health.

Obviously the Paladin + Warrior composition isn't effective enough even with the Shake It Off change, I think Divine Veil and Shake It Off should be able to be combined into a free tank LB3 effect that lasts 60 seconds to help facilitate Paladin and Warrior working together for the party more effectively.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Not only that, you're literally carving up your target with spinning death blades of ultra death! Why doesn't that generate enmity?! I know if someone hit me with a chainsaw, I'd be pretty upset.

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See, those mobs were upset, but then someone told them Dark Knight cleared Ultimate and Warrior didn't. Now they just feel bad for Warrior. Hit them with Carve and Spit though and they'll explode!

guys this is DANGErous to joke around about! You guys are being sooo modest... War needs some more serious buffs, take Holmgang for example, the worst tank ultimate ever. It needs the recast reduced to 60s to make up for its general badness. And you're right, SiO is just absolute garbage. I mean really SE? Make it 20% party HP shield baseline to match the Wars beastliness. Please for the love of god make Storm's Path not TRASH and buff it's HP steal to 100% maybe then they're FINALLY be equal to the rest of the jobs in game THX. Also whats this "dark night" you guys are talking about lol? Yeah duh of course the night is dark it ain't daytime.

Like how we've been complaining about DRK for months with no statements from SE. But now that WAR wasn't in WF they'll kick up a fuss and probably get a response with promises of buffs in a week or two ;_;

If i could have a change to anything,(honestly and not trolling/joking) it would be overpower into a circular aoe and no target requirements. I'm not really bothered by the lack of war clears.

After your 6th Fell Cleave you can use Fell Catastrophe which hits so hard that the enemy is forced into a different dimension and removed from the battle. Because tank balance ;)

As great of a guffaw as this thread may have given me, I intend no satire when I say that I actually would not put it past SE to buff WAR in light of this.

Given the deluge of people hyping this clear as a "change in the meta" and proof that DRK is a part of it somehow, including several streamers and youtube creators.... yeah. Call me a fear-monger, but I think the worst slaps in the face are yet to come.

Im convinced Square Enix does not read their own official forums, but when theres a thread about WAR an emergency alarm distress signal goes off in SE headquarters, lights go red, doors lock, etc. Can someone with NIN to 70 break in and (by bringing a MCH) hack the alarm so it goes off when theres a thread about DRK? The building would likely explode, but if we're lucky they *may* aknowledge DRK exists and is not a myth.

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Originally Posted by SummerScorcher

Im convinced Square Enix does not read their own official forums, but when theres a thread about WAR an emergency alarm distress signal goes off in SE headquarters, lights go red, doors lock, etc. Can someone with NIN to 70 break in and (by bringing a MCH) hack the alarm so it goes off when theres a thread about DRK? The building would likely explode, but if we're lucky they *may* aknowledge DRK exists and is not a myth.

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This post actually made me LOL. Good on you.

CRISIS AVERTED LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. A WAR WAS IN THE 2ND CLEAR OF UCoB. WAR STILL NEEDS TO BE BUFFED.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

CRISIS AVERTED LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. A WAR WAS IN THE 2ND CLEAR OF UCoB. WAR STILL NEEDS TO BE BUFFED.

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Link? curious what the rest of their comp was as well.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

Link? curious what the rest of their comp was as well.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...coils_at_1110/

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...coils_at_1110/

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What's the buff on Ruby Carbuncle? I don't recall seeing it before.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

What's the buff on Ruby Carbuncle? I don't recall seeing it before.

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looks like the phoenix buff to me

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Originally Posted by xJimmehx

If i could have a change to anything,(honestly and not trolling/joking) it would be overpower into a circular aoe and no target requirements. I'm not really bothered by the lack of war clears.

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I honestly want OP to generate 5 rage per enemy hit so you can Cyclone/Decimate more in AoE pulls. But eh whatever.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

I honestly want OP to generate 5 rage per enemy hit so you can Cyclone/Decimate more in AoE pulls. But eh whatever.

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That does sound pretty nice. I have noticed that I cant use BG skills much if im spamming OP, but never thought much about it. If they did that, war would basically be perfect imo. lol

In all reality war isn't perfect. Most of your damage comes fro. Storm path and storm eye and fell cleave isn't worth 50 beast gauge the only way it's worth it unless it's crit or crit direct

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Originally Posted by Jukebox12

In all reality war isn't perfect. Most of your damage comes fro. Storm path and storm eye and fell cleave isn't worth 50 beast gauge the only way it's worth it unless it's crit or crit direct

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Of course its worth 50 gauge. FC is always worth it (after upheaval). SE did a pretty good job streamlining the gauges to not have competing interests. The only thing you can spend gauge on is damage actions. If you had to choose between 50 gauge for vengeance or 50 gauge for FC then you could say 'FC isn't worth 50 gauge'. But the onl ything you can spend gauge on is damage. Just like Pld's is choosing defense or defense. No competing interest. Drks is damage now or (more) damage later on a 2min CD. How is using energy (gauge) to do damage 'not worth it' when the gauge's entire purpose is a battery that gives damage? That's just silly.

War certainly doesnt need MOAR damage. Changing the distribution of damage is an aesthetic preference. Some people like building up the rage beast until you can no longer contain it then blowing your inner release load all over things faces. Some don't. That's just a preference, not a balance issue. Balance wise war certainly does not need MOAR damage. Not liking how it actually does its very good damage is just an opinion. But it fits the characterization of war, so Id rather it stay than go. If you want a different play experience that's why there are different jobs with different characterization.

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Originally Posted by Aana

Of course its worth 50 gauge. FC is always worth it (after upheaval). SE did a pretty good job streamlining the gauges to not have competing interests. The only thing you can spend gauge on is damage actions. If you had to choose between 50 gauge for vengeance or 50 gauge for FC then you could say 'FC isn't worth 50 gauge'. But the onl ything you can spend gauge on is damage. Just like Pld's is choosing defense or defense. No competing interest. Drks is damage now or (more) damage later on a 2min CD. How is using energy (gauge) to do damage 'not worth it' when the gauge's entire purpose is a battery that gives damage? That's just silly.

War certainly doesnt need MOAR damage. Changing the distribution of damage is an aesthetic preference. Some people like building up the rage beast until you can no longer contain it then blowing your inner release load all over things faces. Some don't. That's just a preference, not a balance issue. Balance wise war certainly does not need MOAR damage. Not liking how it actually does its very good damage is just an opinion. But it fits the characterization of war, so Id rather it stay than go. If you want a different play experience that's why there are different jobs with different characterization.

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The ramp up is tremendous now compared to HW. Since you can hold gauge up to 100, you can "almost never" FC before the Zerk button comes off. The gauge thing is a double edged sword. On a side, you can keep and spend witouth worrying because you can actually store more than one FC, but on the other side, since you have powerfull buffs exploiting this store, you cannot really do something else than storing it because, using it outside of the zerk / zerk-ir window is a bad employment of beast gauge.

That's one of my regrets about the beast gauge extension. While I would have loved during HW a way to delay my FC usage withouth wasting abandon stacks, it endend I can only lock my FC usage now, until my main cooldowns are back.

On this specific issue, the NIN gauge is fairly best designed. Since you can store a bit, but only 25% of what a spender would cost you, pooling is impossible but delaying by a couple GCD is. (However, the nin gauge fall on the one skill every 30s rule of doom, for optimisation purposes).

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

The ramp up is tremendous now compared to HW. Since you can hold gauge up to 100, you can "almost never" FC before the Zerk button comes off. The gauge thing is a double edged sword. On a side, you can keep and spend witouth worrying because you can actually store more than one FC, but on the other side, since you have powerfull buffs exploiting this store, you cannot really do something else than storing it because, using it outside of the zerk / zerk-ir window is a bad employment of beast gauge.

That's one of my regrets about the beast gauge extension. While I would have loved during HW a way to delay my FC usage withouth wasting abandon stacks, it endend I can only lock my FC usage now, until my main cooldowns are back.

On this specific issue, the NIN gauge is fairly best designed. Since you can store a bit, but only 25% of what a spender would cost you, pooling is impossible but delaying by a couple GCD is. (However, the nin gauge fall on the one skill every 30s rule of doom, for optimisation purposes).

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They certainly doubled down on the war burst/exploding inner beast theme. But that is still a thematic/aesthetic complaint. Not a balance one. Balance would be if they did dramatically less or more damage than other tanks. War's overall power level is pretty objectively balanced (relative to the agreed 'best' tank pld if using that as the benchmark of what a tank should be). Balance is numbers. Playstyle/fun is subjective aesthetics. Don't screw up the balance to change your personal view of aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by Aana

They certainly doubled down on the war burst/exploding inner beast theme. But that is still a thematic/aesthetic complaint. Not a balance one. Balance would be if they did dramatically less or more damage than other tanks. War's overall power level is pretty objectively balanced (relative to the agreed 'best' tank pld if using that as the benchmark of what a tank should be). Balance is numbers. Playstyle/fun is subjective aesthetics. Don't screw up the balance to change your personal view of aesthetics.

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Pretty much irrelevant as I asked nothing that wasn't already the case in HW, and that nothing cannot be retuned adaptating numbers. If by some divine intervention, my thoughts would be used as a basis for anything, That wouldn't be with some number crunching I'm sure.

It doesn't seem that you can differenciate the aesthetic/thematic with the pleasure associated in gameplay flow, right ? Pressing one button per minute that does the same exact potency as the current cycle is still fairly balanced (not speaking of snapshot and such, it's and hyperbolic comparison), but ends up pretty boring right ?

That's the fairly amusing fact about FF, the low GCD and lack of procs and dynamic gameplay allow to map pretty much everything into Potency per second, or per minute, or whatever. That's the most intriguing part about : how come they don't do it while balancing jobs ?

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Pretty much irrelevant as I asked nothing that wasn't already the case in HW, and that nothing cannot be retuned adaptating numbers. If by some divine intervention, my thoughts would be used as a basis for anything, That wouldn't be with some number crunching I'm sure.

It doesn't seem that you can differenciate the aesthetic/thematic with the pleasure associated in gameplay flow, right ? Pressing one button per minute that does the same exact potency as the current cycle is still fairly balanced (not speaking of snapshot and such, it's and hyperbolic comparison), but ends up pretty boring right ?

That's the fairly amusing fact about FF, the low GCD and lack of procs and dynamic gameplay allow to map pretty much everything into Potency per second, or per minute, or whatever. That's the most intriguing part about : how come they don't do it while balancing jobs ?

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Except some people WOULD find that 'fun' and 'enjoyable'. There are people that like super passive pet army based builds in diable. Some that like high APM knifes edge, mobile glass cannon play. Why is the passive pet guy's 'fun' less important than twitchy mctwitch's 'fun'? They are both people. Those are obviously extreme examples and there comes a point where a game just might not be for you. But 14 has setup its overall 'style' with the 2.5 GCD and fairly limited 'action RPG' elements (thinks like having a 'block' button you must time within the millisecond to parry an attack, or 'aiming' all your attacks properly to hit etc). The overall framework is there. If you don't like a game built around the fundamental elements 14 is you wont like it.

To bring it back around, the jobs were all designed with a certain theme or 'feel' in mind just like 14 has some fundamentals compared to other MMO playstyles. The guys who like small, precisely planned and executed burst play might be drawn to war. The consistent DOT style tank may be attracted to the constant stream of damage Drk does. Etc. Fundamentally changing these aspects of the class will only disenfranchise those who were drawn to their current state. Essentially making the devs choose 'whos' fun is more important to focus the job on. Focus on the people who play it NOW, or the people that 'might' play it if you change it up. Theres an obvious, safe, choice there. If you want a 'new' experience to attract new players or shift the playerbase to a different role then you make a new job that plays differently than all the other ones in its role. Fundamentally rewriting jobs is just the worst of both. Instead of developing an additional experience to play (new job) you are redeveloping an old one which will turn some number of existing players away that ALREADY play it.

That's why, on the whole, I am 'resistant' to change. A good redesign is 2 steps forward and 1 step back. A poor redesign is 1 step forward 2 steps back. Just putting those efforts to a new experience all together is just 1-2 steps forward with no backlash by changing what people already like. You only give and never take away with that method. Obviously if jobs are broken beyond repair you need to redesign. *cough*2.0war*cough*. But that's a rarity. No job is THAT broken right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aana

Except some people WOULD find that 'fun' and 'enjoyable'. There are people that like super passive pet army based builds in diable. Some that like high APM knifes edge, mobile glass cannon play. Why is the passive pet guy's 'fun' less important than twitchy mctwitch's 'fun'? They are both people. Those are obviously extreme examples and there comes a point where a game just might not be for you. But 14 has setup its overall 'style' with the 2.5 GCD and fairly limited 'action RPG' elements (thinks like having a 'block' button you must time within the millisecond to parry an attack, or 'aiming' all your attacks properly to hit etc). The overall framework is there. If you don't like a game built around the fundamental elements 14 is you wont like it.

To bring it back around, the jobs were all designed with a certain theme or 'feel' in mind just like 14 has some fundamentals compared to other MMO playstyles. The guys who like small, precisely planned and executed burst play might be drawn to war. The consistent DOT style tank may be attracted to the constant stream of damage Drk does. Etc. Fundamentally changing these aspects of the class will only disenfranchise those who were drawn to their current state. Essentially making the devs choose 'whos' fun is more important to focus the job on. Focus on the people who play it NOW, or the people that 'might' play it if you change it up. Theres an obvious, safe, choice there. If you want a 'new' experience to attract new players or shift the playerbase to a different role then you make a new job that plays differently than all the other ones in its role. Fundamentally rewriting jobs is just the worst of both. Instead of developing an additional experience to play (new job) you are redeveloping an old one which will turn some number of existing players away that ALREADY play it.

That's why, on the whole, I am 'resistant' to change. A good redesign is 2 steps forward and 1 step back. A poor redesign is 1 step forward 2 steps back. Just putting those efforts to a new experience all together is just 1-2 steps forward with no backlash by changing what people already like. You only give and never take away with that method. Obviously if jobs are broken beyond repair you need to redesign. *cough*2.0war*cough*. But that's a rarity. No job is THAT broken right now.

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Did you even read anything before making up your answer based on what you had in mind that exact moment ?

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Did you even read anything before making up your answer based on what you had in mind that exact moment ?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

It doesn't seem that you can differenciate the aesthetic/thematic with the pleasure associated in gameplay flow, right ? Pressing one button per minute that does the same exact potency as the current cycle is still fairly balanced (not speaking of snapshot and such, it's and hyperbolic comparison), but ends up pretty boring right ?

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I assumed you meant that sarcastically to make your point that there is a 'fun' way and a 'not fun' way to play using an absurd example. Thus my point that (aside from the absurd extreme you took it too) that your attempt to use sarcasm to dismiss actually highlighted my point on why changing jobs fundamentally is more problematic. If you didn't mean that then oh well. That's what I read from it.