With the sprint changes, what is the point of Fist of Wind?

Topic.

Basically, monk stances are useless outside of Fist of Fire.

Fist of Wind needs to be changed to attack speed.

There isn't one.

But there was hardly a point to it even when we couldn't count on sprint, the devs just didn't want to put any time toward reworking Monk when it was arguably the job that needed it the most.

The wanted to double down on tackle mastery's "usefulness" I guess.

They didn't want to remove it cause it has arguably the best animation of all the stances

Getting around Rhalgr's Reach *slightly* faster, but not as fast as if you just switched jobs to ninja while getting around.

I used all three stances in prog during Alexander and Sophia, so I can't say that Fists of Earth and Fists of Wind are "useless". Consider jump phases that end in party-wide damage, like the jump in Susano EX after the swords... being in Fists of Earth when that attack hits is good, as is any other time you're about to take targeted damage. Fists of Wind was good when learning fights that require specific positioning or you to be in certain places to avoid mechanics, especially if sprint has already been used as is on cool down, but that's arguably something that you wouldn't need once you have a fight down. However, I would like to see Fists of Wind just moved to a passive trait. There's no reason that they can't just give monks increased movement speed considering they have to move more than any other job already.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Getting around Rhalgr's Reach *slightly* faster, but not as fast as if you just switched jobs to ninja while getting around.

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You can just ride your mount in Rhalgr's Reach.

It's useless.
Just like Riddle of wind, earth and wind tackle, one Ilm punch and, debatably, Arm of the Destroyer.

I like how Monk was one of the jobs that needed the most useless skills taken away from them, but instead they had actual useful ones taken and kept all the bad stuff.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

You can just ride your mount in Rhalgr's Reach.

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True. Getting around Kugane, then ;)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Topic.

Basically, monk stances are useless outside of Fist of Fire.

Fist of Wind needs to be changed to attack speed.

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Monk has Greased Lightning for Attack Speed, so that change would be pointless.

What's the point of making it As, you'll just pick the highest dps option anyway

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

There isn't one.

But there was hardly a point to it even when we couldn't count on sprint, the devs just didn't want to put any time toward reworking Monk when it was arguably the job that needed it the most.

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Mechanically Monks seems to be top notch. Are you talking about raid utility and desirability?

If not what is wrong with Monks?

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Originally Posted by Ashbury

Mechanically Monks seems to be top notch screwed.

What isn't wrong with Monks?

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So many things wrong with this statement I had to amend it several times over.

Our DPS is fine solely because nothing has fundamentally changed with MNK since ARR
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However, that does NOT mean the class is mechanically fine. When you have 3 skills whose entire purpose are to maintain your core mechanic (Form Shift, Perfect Balance, and Riddle of Earth) 2 skills that s*** all over that mechanic (Tornado Kick and Riddle of Fire), 2 abilities that are a DPS loss to use (Fist of Earth and Fist of Wind) a trait that's entirely existence is redundant (Tackle Mastery), 2 skills that have secondary effects gated by stances (Arm of the Destroyer's Silent and One Ilm Punch's Stun), AND are at the mercy of RNG in order to get 15-20% of your total damage (The Forbidden Chakra, Deep Meditation, Brotherhood) there is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Our DPS is fine solely because nothing has fundamentally changed with MNK since ARR.

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So the problem is SE made monk work incredibly good in ARR and changing anything would break the class. So they kept everything as it was on HW, and it still the same in SB.

Since they had to add new skills as a reward for leveling up, they made a few quality of life skills (Form Shift and arguably Tornado Kick) and filled the rest with useless noise that are situational at best.

Mechanically the job is working as intended, can we agree on that? The form changes and the kicks and the damage. The core of the Job is working as intended.

But the class is basically the same as ARR with some bells and whistles, but none of those whistles offer raid utility. Is that's what the problem with monk?

How about you drop the condescending tone and have a conversation with me? I am asking because I want to learn what the problem is, not to have tard rage with you.

They added SOME raid utility, but it's not much. Brotherhood is only good if you have enough people in your party doing physical damage since that's all it buffs. As such, the buff is sub par compared to similar utility from ninjas and dragoons. Our Mantra buff has now become job exclusive, but no content requires such intense healing as to make taking a monk that much better over other jobs. Also the quality of life improvements to maintain our core job mechanic don't always work. Such as you can't use riddle of earth to maintain greased lightning if you don't take any damage during a jump phase, or if the jump phase is so long that you lose your stacks before you take damage (Susano was an ironic example of this since you get Riddle of Earth around the time you'd fight him, but his jump phase is so long that even if you use riddle of earth, you'll have lost your stacks before he does the raid-wide damage)

Additionally, as was pointed out, Monk has a lot of skills that were marginally useful at best that should have been taken out with the skill pruning of this expansion that were left in and still are just as useless as they ever were, plus... Tackle Mastery.... more useless skills to add onto what we already had.

Also, I'll point out, that monk was literally the only battle class in the game not to get a single new attack in this expansion.

I guess another problem is Dragon Kick supply Blunt resistance down but only monks deal blunt damage, which is kinda weird. I remember in HW Dragon Kick Int debuff was a valid thing to take into consideration.

What if instead of bringing more raid damage Monk would be a 'defensive' dps? If a group a could choose to bring a monk in lieu of a Paladin to supplement defensive cooldowns to the raid. It probably wouldn't fly because people usually don't value defensive cooldowns as much as offensive ones.

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Originally Posted by Ashbury

I guess another problem is Dragon Kick supply Blunt resistance down but only monks deal blunt damage, which is kinda weird. I remember in HW Dragon Kick Int debuff was a valid thing to take into consideration.

What if instead of bringing more raid damage Monk would be a 'defensive' dps? If a group a could choose to bring a monk in lieu of a Paladin to supplement defensive cooldowns to the raid. It probably wouldn't fly because people usually don't value defensive cooldowns as much as offensive ones.

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Provided we keep viable damage output compared to what we'd offer as utility, this is actually a unique step they could take to give monk Identity. I actually like it, but it would depend how it was implemented!

This is not to say, there are many things that still need fixing in what they gave us in Stormblood. HW abilities were very nice because they complemented what we had in ARR. In my opinion, SB should have expanded a lot more the chakra system. Kinda like how crits felt really nice and the rng felt nice, to me, in WoW Fire Mage! That's just me though, I never minded the RNG system if it's fun and well done! They should have added more to it... That's my opinion, instead of all the redundant and counterdicting and useless things that we got for the class.

In my opinion, the job doesn't need THAT much in terms of tweaks in order to make the job enjoyable and more viable.

Couple thoughts I've had:

Purification: remove the chakra requirement. 60 second cooldown, removes a single detrimental effect from all nearby party members.
Riddle of Earth: Applies Fists of Earth and Earth's Reply upon activation. Greased Lightning timer resets every time the monk takes damage while Earth's Reply is active.
Riddle of Fire: Increases damage dealt by 20%, no reduction in skill speed.
Brotherhood: Increases damage dealt by nearby party members by 5%, also grants a 30% chance of opening a chakra whenever a party member executes a spell or weapon skill.
Deep Meditation: Grants 100% chance of opening a chakra whenever you critical hit with a weaponskill.
Replace Tackle Mastery with a trait that reduces the cooldown of Perfect Balance.

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Originally Posted by Ashbury

Mechanically Monks seems to be top notch. Are you talking about raid utility and desirability?

If not what is wrong with Monks?

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I would agree on Heavensward Monk. It was mechanically excellent. The combos were fluid and Touch of Death/Fracture gave you a degree of control to your combo progression and allowed you to delay things to save ticks on Demolish. Stormblood Monk has removed the control and depth that came from being able to manipulate your combos with those skills while many of the additions in Stormblood have a number of issues with them.

1. Brotherhood/Riddle of Fire. The unpopularity of Riddle of Fire is well known and it should have been completely expected by the devs, they took the class where the most requested feature was a fourth stack of a haste buff and they made it slow down instead. At first glance they obviously wanted to pair the slow from RoF with Brotherhood so we wouldn't actually feel the slow because of how much oGCD weaving we'd be doing. The problem is even with optimal compositions you only really average 2 Forbidden Chakras from Brotherhood and Monk doesn't have the massive suite of oGCDs needed to fill the time created by the slow so you just dump everything and feel really sluggish. It's a bad feeling and absolutely not what I wanted from playing Monk. Brotherhood has a separate issue where it's hyper reliant on party composition to provide a mediocre number of Forbidden Chakras, so it basically is guaranteed to whiff in any 4-mans where the absolute best case scenario is having half as many physical DPS as you actually need. I would love it if this skill just removed the requirement to spend Chakras on Forbidden Chakra for its duration so Monk actually felt decent to play in dungeons, but I doubt they'll make such a change.

2. Monk's tools for maintaining Greased Lightning are incredibly situational, usually on long cooldowns, and outright worse than the tools other jobs have for maintaining similar Buffs. Examples: Enochian. It's as essential to BLM as GL3 is to MNK, it has a Relatively long duration, and through the preexisting Transpose and the Enochian oGCD, they can maintain the buff throughout the entire fight indefinitely without losing their Umbral Heart stacks. If they do lose it they can regain it instantly every 30 seconds because Enochian's cooldown is short. Ninja, similarly has an incredibly long duration on Huton and refreshing it is fast with Armor Crush. Dragoon has a long duration on Blood of the Dragon and that can instantly be extended by hitting a button they already had and if its lost the button to regain it is still on a short cooldown. They lose Dragon Eyes but with the recent rework the loss of the Life of the Dragon Phase is Mitigated.

Monk, comparatively, has the shortest buff in the game, and rather than having the tools we already have improved to maintain it we received a new action; Riddle of Earth, which already puts us behind BLM and DRG. Unlike the tools that BLM, DRG and Ninja which work entirely on the Players ability, Riddle of Earth's refresh only procs off enemy damage which when coupled with Greased Lightning's incredibly short duration can make your stacks fall off before you actually receive damage depending on where you are in the combo (Final Boss of Ala Mhigo, Final Boss of Shisui of the Violet Tides, Shinryu's charges in Normal and Extreme). It also can require Monk to eat AOEs it normally shouldn't, many of which grant vulnerability stacks (Shinryu Charges, Several Rabanastre Bosses). Worse, this ability is on a 60 second cooldown and there are several fights where you will need to refresh your stacks because of an invulnerability phase where you can't because the ability is still on cooldown (3rd Boss of Rabanastre comes to mind). This ability should not exist at all. If Monk had received equivalent care during the action rework, it would have received a change like Form Shift Automatically refreshing Greased Lightning if you went from Coeurl Form to Opo Opo form to make GL3 Management as Easy for Monk as Enochian or Blood of the Dragon Management is for Dragoon. Instead we got a hyper situational ability that sometimes can't even be relied upon because of its cooldown. Compounding this is Perfect Balance. While Enochian and Blood of the Dragon are on 30 second cooldowns. Ninjutsu is on a 20 second cooldown. Perfect Balance's cooldown is nowhere close to that, it's 3 minutes long. 6 times as long as the next equivalent buff.

All this together just screws Monk in content where other Jobs have less issues comparatively.

3. Monk has an enormous number of highly circumstantial actions that see so little use that they may as well be useless or actions that are actually useless. On the topic of this thread are the Fist Stances. Fists of Wind and Earth currently serve no purpose ever. It is actively more detrimental to use them than it is to remain in fire eternally. Tackle Mastery by extension is a useless trait. One Ilm Punch's form requirement prevents it from ever being used to stun anything, as does Arm of the Destroyer's requirement make it difficult to stun anything. Tornado Kick's cost is so massive that it is rarely justified to ever use it outside of the boss being at <.5% health, and because we need to at least try and save our stacks it's often better to just ignore it or use Riddle of Earth. Our TP sustain is infinite now, even without Riddle of Fire's slow, so there's no need for Purification in single Target and Monk's AOE sustain is so strong it often isn't needed in AOE situations especially if your co-DPS is actually AOEing or brings Goad/Tactitian. Arm of the Destroyer's AOE damage is massively weak for how much TP it costs, it takes Five Targets to barely beat Bootshine in potency for almost three times the TP cost. Outside of super massive pulls that rarely occur in dungeons, Arm of the Destroyer sees no use.

4. Monk lacks a lot of basic quality of life things other Jobs have. It doesn't get a ranged GCD at low levels for single mob pulls. Monk's mobility is terrible, we only have one mobility cooldown and we have to use it on cooldown to deal our maximum damage. Ninja and Samurai never have to use their gap closers to achieve Max Damage. Dragoon, while it does need to use its jumps to achieve Max Damage and build eyes for Life of the Dragon, also has Elusive Jump which allows a great amount of Free Movement at no cost. We don't have an AOE chakra dump, so we have to dump Forbidden Chakras on single targets in AOE situations. The previously mentioned comparative difficulties in maintaining Greased Lightning through both its skills and the long cooldown on Perfect Balance compared to similar skills would also fit under this. Our Aggro generation is insane and while Diversion is useful in limiting it, it's cooldown is too long to be effective, we could very much use an aggro 1/2 Skill. Overall there's a lot of changes that Monk has been waiting on for a long time that it should have gotten in Stormblood that it just didn't get.

This list of complaints also isn't all inclusive but they were the ones I could think of at the time of writing. I have certainly made other points in other posts I have made on the subject of Stormblood Monk that I failed to mention here.

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Originally Posted by Ashbury

So the problem is SE made monk work incredibly good in ARR and changing anything would break the class. So they kept everything as it was on HW, and it still the same in SB.

Since they had to add new skills as a reward for leveling up, they made a few quality of life skills (Form Shift and arguably Tornado Kick) and filled the rest with useless noise that are situational at best.

Mechanically the job is working as intended, can we agree on that? The form changes and the kicks and the damage. The core of the Job is working as intended.

But the class is basically the same as ARR with some bells and whistles, but none of those whistles offer raid utility. Is that's what the problem with monk?

How about you drop the condescending tone and have a conversation with me? I am asking because I want to learn what the problem is, not to have tard rage with you.

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Even if Monk had a solid design in ARR, there's been nothing done to expand upon it which is what many people have been annoyed about. The finest meal in the world will really quickly lose its appeal if its all you've eaten for a long stretch of time and Monk is the same way. It's been identical for far too long, and to a certain extent there's a degree of jealousy towards other Jobs as well. While we're doing the same things we've always done, Dragoons now have Nastrond and Life of the Dragon, Ninja's have a Frog/Ninki Nuke, Machinists are Flipping around like they're in a John Wu movie, Bards have the gate of Babylon, Black Mages have Foul, and Summoners can literally summon Bahamut. I want to do new things, I want some new way to punch enemies, or launch Ki-blasts.

The most recent action we got that we can actually be really enthusiastic about was gained at level 54 with Elixir Field and it doesn't truly change how Monk functions, it just kinda slides between what was already there. There's a desire for something new with Monk and a large number of long standing complaints that we were hyped up to believe would be addressed with the action rework that just didn't get addressed at all. It feels like they've gotten to the point where them being completely unwilling to touch the core of the class is a problem, not an asset. In Heavensward even if most of what Monk got was Quality of Life, it was good Quality of Life and we also got Elixir Field to sweeten the deal. Form Shift? Awesome for maintaining stacks in short downtime phases. Meditation and Tornado Kick? Great for mitigating damage loss when you lose your stacks. Purification was the only skill that was kind of lack luster. In Stormblood we didn't get anything new or even anything all that exciting. We got more Quality of Life but it was decidedly worse than what other Jobs got and it took an extra skill slot to do it(Riddle of Earth), promises of fixes to many longstanding complaints that didn't get addressed (the action rework that was the main selling point of the expansion), a trait that doubles down on a long standing design issue with Monk (Tackle Mastery), a skill that literally replaced a skill we used to have in Cross Classes with an effect that's damn near universally reviled (Riddle of Fire), and a raid buff with a personal DPS interaction that while a good idea in concept really doesn't feel that great in practice (Brotheerhood and Deep Meditation to an extent).

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

words.

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I feel like while the other dps classes also got their dots taken away, they got something else to replace it. Like Ninja ninki, Dragoon got further changes to their rotation Samurai have their gage.

Monks got, well, nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tigerlilley

I feel like while the other dps classes also got their dots taken away, they got something else to replace it. Like Ninja ninki, Dragoon got further changes to their rotation Samurai have their gage.

Monks got, well, nothing.

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Monks got increased potencies across the board to bake for the "loss" of DoTs. It's more or less the same across the board because realistically, DoTs didn't really add much depth to their gameplay the were they are (specifically abilties like lead shot, phletomoize, fracture and ToD). Mind you that DRG was still considered undertuned until they further buffed their 5th combo hits, samurai didn't "have their dots taken away" since they were a new class, and rotation wise, MCH is largely unchanged even with the removal of lead shot.

Not arguing that MNK is well designed, there's still a few outliers that shows they clearly ran out of ideas for MNK (and a few other job abilties) and instead went the other way.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

The most recent action we got that we can actually be really enthusiastic about was gained at level 54 with Elixir Field and it doesn't truly change how Monk functions, it just kinda slides between what was already there. There's a desire for something new with Monk and a large number of long standing complaints that we were hyped up to believe would be addressed with the action rework that just didn't get addressed at all. It feels like they've gotten to the point where them being completely unwilling to touch the core of the class is a problem, not an asset.

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Quality of life abilties such as form shift and chakra are buffs to MNK's kit, since now they have the ability to maintain their DPS during downtime compared to having a ranged attack that interrupts combo sequences. However, the nature of GL3 does become a hindrance when they are unwilling to allow a fourth stack; all that really does is increase the dps discprendency of a monk who can maintain GL4 and those who couldn't, as well as their relative dps since now it's balance around being at GL4 the majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

-Wrong information about potencies and stuff I already said about the good Quality of Life in Heavensward-

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This is incorrect, Monk did not have increased potencies across the board, Monk had all of its potencies reduced by 10 or more. Every other job saw all of their potencies increased and gained new GCDs to compensate for the loss of a DoT except Monk.

Also Touch of Death added more depth to Monk compared to other jobs since it had a very real interaction with Demolish's timer which was fun to manage, especially at higher skill speed builds where you could use both Touch of Death and Fracture to delay your dot ticksw. What actually did replace it was Deep Meditation which really just feels like nothing, the double layered RNG nature of the skill means you get an extra forbidden Chakra every 50-80 seconds. We didn't even get an extra GCD in our standard combos to replace Touch of Death like Ninja and Dragoon both got.

As for what I said about Quality of Life, I didn't say that the Quality of Life skills we got in Heavensward are bad. They aren't, they're very very good and I legitimately don't understand how you can have Monk at lower levels without something like Form Shift, it's the single most essential of the job. My point was that the Quality of Life we got in Stormblood is bad. Riddle of Earth doesn't allow for flexible maintanence of GL3 like Transpose does for BLM, it's extremely rigid and can only be used in very specific situations because it requires the boss to hit you. Coupled with how short GL3 is it makes the ability incredibly unreliable outside of literally one fight (O4S phase 1), and then it can't be relied on to be up for the same situation again.

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We didn't even get an extra GCD in our standard combos to replace Touch of Death like Ninja and Dragoon both got.

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Why nin ? Only drg got extra long chains of combos.

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Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil

Why nin ? Only drg got extra long chains of combos.

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It got an extra Gust Slash added into it's combo rotation between Spinning Edge and Shadow Fang to compensate for the loss of Mutilate.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

This is incorrect, Monk did not have increased potencies across the board, Monk had all of its potencies reduced by 10 or more. Every other job saw all of their potencies increased and gained new GCDs to compensate for the loss of a DoT except Monk.
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I could have worded it better; Twin snakes got an increase in the damage buff, which also affects auto attacks and oGCDs.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

We didn't even get an extra GCD in our standard combos to replace Touch of Death like Ninja and Dragoon both got.

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NIN doesn't get any new GCDs as far as I'm aware. DRG did get a 5th GCD in their combo as far as gameplay is concerned, but I was making a point in that alone didn't make up for the apparent dps loss of a DoT, or that it did but it wasn't enough since they were relatively underperforming that it needed a buff to begin with.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I could have worded it better; Twin snakes got an increase in the damage buff, which also affects auto attacks and oGCDs.





NIN doesn't get any new GCDs as far as I'm aware. DRG did get a 5th GCD in their combo as far as gameplay is concerned, but I was making a point in that alone didn't make up for the apparent dps loss of a DoT, or that it did but it wasn't enough since they were relatively underperforming that it needed a buff to begin with.

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Twin Snakes didn't get a buff, it just had the old Trait: Enhanced Twin Snakes folded into the Base Action. It was a 10% buff in Heavensward and ARR and that has not changed.

Ninja got another Gust Slash added between Spinning Edge and Shadow Fang. It wasn't much, but it's more than what Monk got.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Twin Snakes didn't get a buff, it just had the old Trait: Enhanced Twin Snakes folded into the Base Action. It was a 10% buff in Heavensward and ARR and that has not changed.

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Ok then.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

Ninja got another Gust Slash added between Spinning Edge and Shadow Fang. It wasn't much, but it's more than what Monk got.

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If you're coming from the perspective that monk hasn't gotten in extra ability to use in their rotation, then yes. Though it's not very clear cut since NIN essentially had the DoT from shadow fang baked into Dancing Edge and made into a third combo; all that really did was lower their effective dps gain if there was already a warrior (or if this change wasn't made, a samurai) in the group, in the end they're still doing less AE combos compared to before.

As far as speaking damage is concerned, this is a non-issue since adding an extra GCD/combo does not necessarily mean more dps as we saw with DRG, at least when it's not tuned right. Despite the above that MNK did effectively get lower potencies, it's it doesn't necessarily mean that it's underperforming as opposed to undesired or poorly designed. I was primarily arguing the former to someone else (thus if this is not the point you're making, everything we talked about in regards to potency above isn't relevant), since I do agree that as far as design is concerned, MNK definitely could have been done better because they effectively ran out of ideas if they have to add things like tackle mastery and improved chakra.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

It got an extra Gust Slash added into it's combo rotation between Spinning Edge and Shadow Fang to compensate for the loss of Mutilate.

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Not entirely accurate, ninja got Shadow Fang combined with Dancing Edge. So the combo is now the Dancing Edge combo + DOT. The slashing debuff is, arguably, more important in the ninja rotation than the DOT. Ninjas now have fewer GCDs than they did in Heavensward. Stormblood added OGCDs for Ninja, all based around the Ninki gauge.