Right now, I'm forced to use Lightspeed in my opener to have everything up before trick without clipping. I was thinking that if AST were to receive a version of Stella back at something like 180-190 potency or something, that was instant cast, it would greatly solve the clipping problem the job has overall. Most of their OGCD require at least 2 animations or 2 uses: Draw/Use, Draw/Minor/Use, Draw/Spread, Lucid/CO and so on. Their only free spot at the moment is Combust II every 30 seconds. Aspected Benefic can be used for weaving, but only when the tank requires health (and depends on the Sect). This is just something I feel would make the job much smoother overall.
Please give AST an instant cast damage spell
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10-30-2017, 05:22 AMIllyaPrismaPlease give AST an instant cast damage spell
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10-30-2017, 06:28 AMMintnHoney
Most arguments which compel for the addition of DPS abilities for AST would be angrily flared upon by the forums due to ASTs ability to chaotically buff the DPS potential of the party. Further, most will also point out and sneer due to the possibility of Minor Arcana as a DPS tool.
That being said, having something that's not quite so random would be nice, but in lieu of that, I'd personally rather they bring the PvP version of Minor Arcana to PvE. -
10-30-2017, 10:25 AMRisvertasashiMinor Arcana is oGCD; sounds like the OP wants a GCD instant.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
But, I mean, despite the tone of your post a point would remain: Would other healers get a GCD instant besides 1 DoT? Why exactly should only AST get that, and not the other healers?
Giving such a tool to any healer is a very significant buff. -
10-30-2017, 10:46 AMbasketofseals
They could always make break instant cast. It's a pretty worthless skill at the moment.
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10-30-2017, 10:58 AMGhishlainI actually kinda really like this, the ability to weave at the cost of a cross role. Would at least make the selection more interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by basketofseals
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10-30-2017, 11:22 AMIllyaPrismaI hope you realize SCH received this in the form of Miasma II, and already had Ruin II if necessary. WHM has significantly less OGCD to weave than AST, and so does SCH for that matter. WHM also gets a window for weaving every 18 seconds, compared to AST who gets one every 30 seconds. The job as a whole should be able to function smoothly without always (literally always) needing to clip. It's not meant to act as a "significant buff" when the burst hit is lower than Malefic III, but since you said it, Miasma II was a significant increase to SCHs damage. SOOOO your question should not be "why only AST get that?" when SCH already has it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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10-30-2017, 11:28 AMRisvertasashiRuin II and Miasma II are 100 potency. M2 is a short range pbaoe, limiting its actual use for movement/weave casting. Moreover, SCH does not have an instant shield/regen a la AST and WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma
Also have to disagree, SCH has very substantial oGCD weaving. Lustrate/ED are 3 things you need to weave right there. WHM has less, but it still clips. You can't wait for aero 2 every time you need to pop an oGCD. -
10-30-2017, 11:47 AMRawrzAST always gets the low MP cost treatment. They are SPECSHIAL in their own right. Yes, it does suck that you have to clip the GCD every time you want to use your cards, but honestly you have so many short OGCD interactions (draw, spread, RR, Shuffle, arcana etc.) that you can't really expect to get SUCH A HIGH POTENCY GCD skill. I could see giving stella or break an instant cast 100 potency to be tied with ruin II, but thats it really. It would need a decent MP cost though, since it adds heavy.Quote:
Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma
ON THE NOTE OF SCH: Miasma II is both restrictive and MP drain from hell. WIth this logic, SCHs make a thread that says "SCH needs an instant cast GCD heal. Something like 350-500 potency, so that we can weave and heal, because WHM gets Regen and AST gets Aspected benefic." -
10-30-2017, 12:22 PMRisvertasashiWhile more reasonable, I still don't think it's particularly reasonable. This isn't a QoL change, it's a hard buff. To a class that's already performing very strongly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
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10-30-2017, 12:26 PMMintnHoneyIt's good to see that the "tone" of my post wasn't misplaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
To be clear, you're not trying to imply that all of the healer jobs only have 1 GCD DoT available to them, right?
I see your point, but I think your request would have been better if you said SCH needed a hard CC of some kind because AST has a 2m CD stun and WHM can spam Holy, because at least that's something SCH truly lacks compared to the other two jobs. To my knowledge, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
About Sch's Miasma II: MP drainage is kind of something that happens across the board for all healer AoE attack spells and therefore not exactly something to be thrown out as if it were something uniquely cumbersome to the job (well, ok, Aero III is sort of an exception). If we really want to split hairs, Miasma II is actually less of an MP cost than Gravity, and since the DoT is required to fully realize the spells damage potential, it's inadvisable to spam it.
It's an.. interesting decision to make it centered around the SCH, however that's the same logic that seemed to have been thrown from WHM AoE Stun into AST AoE Stun (but at least you can spam your AoE, if you so choose (though I wouldn't recommend it)).
...Anyway, I don't really think WHM has any instant cast attack spells either, right? I think the instant cast GCDs are strictly SCH territory, but I can't see why an OGCD would be so off-limits, role-ability or otherwise. But I couldn't see it being much stronger, if at all, than Ruin 2. I suppose a weaker Ruin 2 -like spell would be something, but then, at 100 potency, anything less than that, who's really touching that? Thus, I think, if we're trying to add in additional decisions to an already decision-intensive job, bringing more to the Minor Arcana would be the best way to go so that we're not just introducing more spells to jobs. -
10-30-2017, 12:37 PMKabzyTherein lies the issue though. Yes it is our AoE attack but due to its overall potency and instant cast, it's a direct upgrade to Ruin II (Single Target weaving / movement) at the cost of range and MP. In most scenarios, SCH can get away with using Miasma II for weaving, but depending on the length of the fight as well as other factors, you can often times find yourself having to make active decisions on whether or not you can afford to use more Miasma II for weaving. That as well as positioning sometimes preventing you from being in melee range all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
The move is great, but it has its drawbacks. If AST were to get an instant GCD to weave, there would need to be a similar penalty as no other healers have this linked to their DPS. Simply making Malefic III instant would be a little overkill to an already well performing job. -
10-30-2017, 12:38 PMRisvertasashiWell, so let's revisit that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
Yes. And if you suggested a substantial buff to Samurai's DPS (even with reasoning like 'to make it flow better'), you also probably wouldn't find much support. That doesn't mean the masses are conspiring against you to keep the job down. Maybe, just maybe, you do have to factor in a job's current strength before you can find support for strong buffs to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
Instant GCD DoT, thus allowing oGCD weaving. SCH has two, as noted, but one of them is highly situational. In a regular, single target rotation -- this is exactly right. Each healer has one GCD instant-cast DoT.Quote:
Originally Posted by MintnHoney
But on the healing side, WHM and AST also have an instant GCD heal that sees regular use, so there's also that opportunity to weave. Nonetheless, the ultimate point is this: All healers GCD clip. It's not a problem that is somehow unique to AST. OP is asking for this problem to be solved for AST only, in a way that would also substantially buff its overall performance.
SCH is a good example because of the sheer number of oGCDs. 6 in the first minute, 3 every minute after that. Aetherflow is also an oGCD instant, so make that 4 per minute instead. And that's just stuff from 2.0. Then add in all the oGCDs from HW/SB ability additions... Yeah, there's a lot. -
10-30-2017, 03:08 PMIllyaPrismaMiasma II is very much apart of SCH single target rotation. You are losing 30 potency for the space to use ED/150 Potency. I'm not sure how you choose to play SCH, but if you are not minimizing your Ruin II count, you are probably doing subpar DPS. SCH also has the best MP sustainability of the 3 healers by miles, and as long as you coordinate with your BRD/MCH, Miasma II is not that harmful to your MP. AST also has the most cooldowns to weave (yes, more than SCH) with the least amount of space. I'd be perfectly fine with WHM getting something for weaving as well, but the issue is most prevalent with AST. SCH is already dominating the other 2 in terms of total DPS contribution (yes it averages more than AST), so this type of addition for weaving really wouldn't be that ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
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10-30-2017, 03:13 PMRawrzMiasma II should be compared to Aero III, except that the MP cost just isn't fair in a single target fight. The MP cost of Aero III is the same as Broil II, which costs 20% more than Malefic III and Stone IV. Miasma II costs 233% more than Aero III, but must be applied TWICE as often to be completely DPS optimal, assuming you have relevant OGCDS to weave. SCH is naturally at a disadvantage for MP. The "free" Mp from aetherflow with Energy Drain/healing is just an invisible part of their MP pool, which is still VERY costly. Healing spells cost more. DPS spells cost more. The inadvertent buff to dissipation last patch, from reducing MP cost of Summon/Summon III, is finally giving SCH some breathing room again.Quote:
Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma
AST is the support healer of this game. The shift from AST being the 2nd highest nuke, to the weakest, indicates that plainly. Their dps contribution is their cards above all, and should be viewed as their personal DPS towards the group. I hate the clunkiness of AST's cards too, but Makani is right, it would really increase the DPS of AST and warp the balance, unless AST wanted to a weaker Malefic III out of the deal. -
10-30-2017, 03:37 PMIllyaPrismaAlright, apparently I need hard numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/ZvRXJ...ebuffs=1000829
I contributed (roughly) an additional 632 DPS on top of 2244. 12,656 DPS was done under Balance, so we can attribute 5% of that to me. My total would be 2876.
SCH at 99th Percentile:
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17...set=99&boss=43
Their personal is 2948, already higher than my contribution WITHOUT factoring in Chain Strategem, and I had 41% Balance uptime.
You can't "Warp the balance" when healer balance in terms of DPS is already warped. And I am not even asking for some substantial DPS increase because personally, I feel Healers are fine right now regardless of how much damage SCH contributes. I'm asking for a way to avoid hard clipping my GCD. -
10-30-2017, 04:32 PMRawrzWhich i answered by saying that yes, you could have a spell like stella or break be instant cast, but the overall DPS potency of Malefic III would be nerfed to keep AST exactly where they are DPS wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma
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10-30-2017, 07:26 PMKurando
Going back to the original post, please don't waste Lightspeed so you can insta-cast Malefic or any other damage spell. LS itself reduces damage output whilst active, not to mention you might need it for other healing things in a pinch. (That's how i read it anyway, unless you meant to LS Support stuff).
The thing with AST is although it might not have major DPS potential like WHM and SCH, they have the means to affect the output of everyone else in the party with the cards. Essentially your insta cast actions will come from your allies and not the AST in a sense. -
10-30-2017, 08:38 PMRisvertasashi
Way to completely go off track with a strawman. Yes, M2 has situational uses. At best, this puts it on par with WHM and AST, which have the benefit of their regen/shield being an instant GCD, but that's still not the point.
A high potency instant nuke every 2.44s or so is a significant buff to AST (and would be a big buff to any caster). You seem to think AST is somehow lacking or falling behind the other healers. It's not; On account of its strength, it gets a slot guaranteed far, far more than the other two.
Oh, it's not topping the DPS charts on FFlogs? That's the price you pay for the abilities to give out crit and damage buffs, among other things, and this is called 'balance' -- when a job maybe isn't the best at one thing because it's very good at another thing. If you want higher personal DPS, play another healer. They don't need indirect nerfs. (if anything, as pointed out, perhaps M2 could do with a bit of a cost cut). If you really want GCD clipping reduced, there's no reason AST should get special treatment over the other healers. -
10-30-2017, 08:48 PMIllyaPrismaLightspeed is optimal for the AST opener. Malefic III goes down to 165 potency, but you can fit 5 in before trick. Without Lightspeed, you can only get 3 in at full potency. If you don’t feel like using LS, you could potentially use this http://ffxivrotations.com/11zw, but it’s a potency loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurando
Lightspeed is not some panic button that you should only use for healing situations. Just like tanking invulns, you need to plan it’s use strategically so that you will see the most value. -
10-30-2017, 10:22 PMIllyaPrismaThis is incorrect. SCH is not on par with WHM, it’s beating WHM in every instance currently while still having raid buffs. SCH is head and shoulders above the other 2 in terms of damage contribution. And for the last time, Miasma II is not situational. It should be used whenever possible for weaving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/jN2Xh...one&source=606
You see this top SCH? He has 26 Miasma II casts, compared to 5 Ruin II casts. It is better to minimize Ruin II count because Miasma II is such an impactful gain. -
10-31-2017, 02:58 AMRisvertasashiOk, fair point about M2. But when I said 'on par' I wasn't talking about DPS levels. But there's more to the healer jobs than the DPS levels. On that same FFlogs source you link (and the top spot for any job on the site)... you notice how they're being fed arrows and balances? And if you go below the #1 spots, it even includes expanded arrows/balances.Quote:
Originally Posted by IllyaPrisma
And that is AST's strength. It makes other jobs shine; people love being buffed. But, your own DPS won't be so great.
Now, for SCH vs WHM... we saw all 3 healers used in o4s progression. We're seeing all 3 healers used in Unending Coil progression. But if SCH is so far ahead, why is this?
Granted, I'm interested to see what will happen in 4.2. If a healer falls behind then, then I think that may be the time to ask for buffs. But right now, people are picking healers for reasons other than top DPS contribution. -
10-31-2017, 03:46 AMIllyaPrismaFor prog sure. AST/WHM would be preferable during ultimate prog. This game is all about DPS though. The current tier is on farm now and SCH is essential to optimize a raid group. It still has its spot, and in trade for how amazing it’s raid oriented kit is, it struggles to maintain raid health alone. You can look at those logs I posted and determine that the AST is still not meeting the total DPS value that the SCH is providing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Risvertasashi
Also, if you are now all of sudden acknowledging Miasma II, there is no reason AST and WHM shouldn’t receive some alleviation with clipping too. SCH uses the least amount of GCD for healing, and has the greatest number of opportunities to weave. I have 12+ cooldowns to weave in my opener, and all I get is swiftcast and Combust II. Miasma II is 30 potency less than Broil II. I’d be happy with 180 or even 170 potency on an instant cast Stella. -
10-31-2017, 03:54 AMKDSilver
I wish they could add another instant damage spell as well.
Not for extra dps, but definitly for weaving oGCD.
I hate all that clipping with the new AST.
(Even if this would mean nerfing Combus II and Malefic III) -
11-03-2017, 06:33 AMSaraphin
ok, some points:
- nstant WHM DoT? Yes, Aero 2. Not 3, the base one. it's an instant, but things go on CD for your GCD. WHM has two DoTs.
- as for instant Regens...Yes, there is Regen itself, at a hefty 840 MP on a single target and incurs the GCD timer on the next spell. The AOE HoT has a cast, PI can be "lumped" into this as a "get everyone up".
- DB...is a 60 second Lily gated Shield. you have to plan your oGCDs around it if you know something is coming.
- On Paper, WHM has the highest DPS output, in actual progress, as it's been said, not so much.
- Let's just wait and see what happens. then start asking for things.
- nstant WHM DoT? Yes, Aero 2. Not 3, the base one. it's an instant, but things go on CD for your GCD. WHM has two DoTs.
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11-03-2017, 07:44 AMDruakH
My only astro wish would be for Earthly Star to explode and place a DoT on all the mobs. I dislike not having an AoE dot like the other healers