Command Mission Healer Bug or bad design?

So far I have run twice as a tank, twice as a healer, and many times as a DPS.
When I wasn't the healer, I noticed something strange. The healer is 'passable' outside of boss fights, but during boss fights the healer REFUSES to heal herself.

My healer ended up dropping to 60 HP due to the fact that she stood in a puddle of acid until I had to force her out by disengaging the final boss and trigger her to walk toward me.
Then I re-engaged. She stayed where she was and continued healing the tank and everyone else. but she remained at 60HP (with only the small default regeneration bringing her any higher) for the rest of the fight, which was a good 1 to 2 more minutes.

She is now set up with 4 defensive stance and 4 independent... I had her on Defensive But she STILL has this problem. The last run I did, she died to the end boss because she refused to heal herself even ONCE during the boss fight.

WHAT IS GOING ON?!?! WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?!? Anyone else see this garbage?!?

The AI is dumb as a bag of rocks.

DPS AI is pretty damn good.

Healer and tank AI needs a lot of work.

All the AI needs some work. They are nothing like the very good higher level AI in job quests. As a tank, it was a regular thing for the ranged DPS to target the mob I did NOT attack, not to mention...they attacking any mobs in range whether or not I even plan on doing that.

In the Wanderers Palace, they went for the Treasure Hunters. No matter how much I tried to pull them away, drawing them to myself and using Engage on further mobs, the moment the mob I ordered them to attack was down, they went for the Treasure Hunters that were a room away instead of the mobs right next to the one they just killed. Treasure Hunters which they shouldn't even ever attack...

The game really needs more commands and better AI. I think that their AI sucks like this simply because the developers wanted a "base" that could be made better with time, all the while not being too good, to make standard runs with other players still preferred. Cause, yeah, there is really no difficulty in making an AI that would work wonders in nearly all of dungeons with just one set of general commands, then make a unique one here or there for every dungeon with a special mechanic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

DPS AI is pretty damn good.

Healer and tank AI needs a lot of work.

---

I'll mostly agree.

I think players are trying to do the command missions like they would with experienced players. So if you normally play Tank or Healer, the party feels a little too stupid. Like if you are playing healer in these parties, it takes WAY too much time because the tank doesn't engage a target like a real player would. A real player would (if they're not a noob) grab the mobs and then have the DPS attack the mobs from the rear/side. What happens so far with the AI, is that the tank does nothing until you either tell them to, or (faster) run into the mobs yourself. In the case of Halitali and Brayflox Longstop, guess what the AI does? Stand in bad. In Stone Vigil the AI players are following Isgebind while in the air, so they always end up stepping in bad.

On the plus side the AI players aren't squishy. So they can stand in bad and last a while, but this is where the AI's dumbness comes to light. If you're playing Tank, and retreat to not step in bad, the DPS AND Healer will stand in bad.

I think the developers intentionally picked the dungeons with the "step in bad" mechanics on purpose so that otherwise solo players would have to compensate for the AI. At least the command missions aren't as punitive when you die, it just sends you back automatically instead of waiting for the AI to die slowly.

I somewhat disagree, Kisai. Both the tank and the healer AI need some work. For instance:

-Tank: The major offender is the mob backtracking. Let's say you click on "engage". The DPS (if you have ranged) will start attacking them, however the tank will move where the mob WAS, while said thing is already attacking the DPS. In places like Wanderer's, the tank would go back to attack the adventurers fightning the Wandering Tonberry.

-Healer: It seems like they don't enjoy healing themselves upon taking damage. The healing is scrambled, as it uses medica II even when the fight is over. On big pulls, they would let you die but granted... big pulls is not "playing as intended", and the healer potentially has a "gambit" that would heal you upon reaching certain threshold of your HP.

Their resistance depends on their selected tactics. If you go full offensive, both the DPS and healer will be a bit squishy. Specially when they step in the bad.

I'd believe that the DPS are working as intended because well... they just attack things. They don't interact as much as a healer or tank, as they have a different playstyle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

All the AI needs some work. They are nothing like the very good higher level AI in job quests. As a tank, it was a regular thing for the ranged DPS to target the mob I did NOT attack, not to mention...they attacking any mobs in range whether or not I even plan on doing that.

---

Use the Engage command. They'll have trouble even recognizing anything else exists. But obviously you need to do it every time the engaged target dies, or they fall back on their "No target, kill everything" strategy.

Healers, idk. Maybe they just forgot to code them to recognize themselves as a priority. Using the gambit analogy, they put the Self: HP<40% gambit below the enemy: attack gambit.

Disclaimer: I've only run as healer so far. So haven't experienced major problems myself. But, problems nonetheless. The tank obviously never succeeds at getting aggro on everything at the start, which makes for a sloppy grouping since they can't position very well. And dps seem to love throwing out random AoE attacks, which on top of the poor aggro, means they pull hate half the time. Until/unless we get some finer controls on each individual member, and/or use of signs/waymarks, it's going to be a bit rough.

My advice: run with an ACN. They've got Physick, and they'll use it if needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Use the Engage command. They'll have trouble even recognizing anything else exists. But obviously you need to do it every time the engaged target dies, or they fall back on their "No target, kill everything" strategy.

Healers, idk. Maybe they just forgot to code them to recognize themselves as a priority. Using the gambit analogy, they put the Self: HP<40% gambit below the enemy: attack gambit.

Disclaimer: I've only run as healer so far. So haven't experienced major problems myself. But, problems nonetheless. The tank obviously never succeeds at getting aggro on everything at the start, which makes for a sloppy grouping since they can't position very well. And dps seem to love throwing out random AoE attacks, which on top of the poor aggro, means they pull hate half the time. Until/unless we get some finer controls on each individual member, and/or use of signs/waymarks, it's going to be a bit rough.

My advice: run with an ACN. They've got Physick, and they'll use it if needed.

---

Using Engage doesn't work, the tank will simply whack the target you ordered Engage on once, and then go back to the other targets if they're not attacking the tank. This is blatant in Wanderer's Palace, and has already been mentioned above: they want those Treasure Hunters dead. You can be in the room around the beetles and they'll still run back to those treasure hunters. This will also happen on the final boss in there. You will be utterly spamming Engage to make them attack the targets attacking the party instead of going after targets NOT attacking the party. And I'm really doubting it's working as intended given that spamming Engage makes the archer go into turbo fire mode with unlimited Barrage.

Engage needs changed to "I am your commander. I ordered you to attack this. So attack this, and don't disobey me." If we die because I gave a poor Engage order with it working like that, then that's on me at that point. But currently Engage for the tank is just a suggestion. Even Arcanist pets are smarter than these fools. I "get" that they're designed to pick up enemies on the aggro list that are currently not attacking them, but when if your commanding officer gives you an order, you follow it.

And yes I've noticed the Arcanist heals more than the conjurer does. Though it's about as powerful as ours. Still, healing some is better none at all , I guess. /stare Cecily

I mean, I did edit out the WP parts on purpose. I assumed the part of the user's post that I picked out was more of a different issue of squad just getting distracted; it's something I have seen, but Engage tends to keep them on task.

WP is more of a special situation where all those examples still come up on the aggro table, so squad is coded to deal with them same as anything else. Tank still makes an effort to ensure all aggro is on them. But, anecdotal, I feel tanks are the only ones this problem hits hard. Engage will still typically keep dps on the target specified, but tank follows different rules. And, in the case of the hunters, if they're the only things left on the table, of course squad is going to read that as "mobs that are still a threat."

But, also again, I haven't run WP yet with them, so, my assumptions could be pretty far off the mark. I might also be running these differently than most; I'm ok with taking things slow, with a little patience. As such, I don't see the glaring issues as much, I think.

The DPS just focusing down one thing with Engage is an indirect problem when the tank is being its usual self and no longer tanking what the DPS are attacking because they're going to pull hate, and they're going to get hurt. So once the tank comes back from its jaunt across the dungeon to Ultimatum the offending enemy, it'll just run along to the next target not attacking it. Then compound onto that the complete unreliability of the healer and we have ourselves as vicious cycle. You don't have to pull big for this to happen. It happens in Halatali and Toto-rak too when the adds spawn, it's just less pronounced there because the mobs have so little health and the squads are very powerful. When the DPS pull hate on the boss when it decides to Everyone's Grudge and your healer just stands there like "what?" then we have a problem.

I'm okay with the having to order them to attack adds, I've been doing that for over three years now on Arcanist, but having one command for every role is not working. It seems that the battle styles only change their damage/mitigation and not their actual behavior, which is a missed opportunity. The healer is unreliable, the tank is a moron, and the DPS have to be handheld. Micromanagement is probably not the answer here, gods know the hotbar mess that'd be, but right now this is not working. They've shown us they can code the AI to respond to mechanics, before these squads even came out. We need it. Not singling anyone out with this, but having people say "Go in as tank or healer and you won't have this problem" is just telling people to circumvent poor design choices, and we really shouldn't be okay with that.

And I'd like to say we really shouldn't have to order people to not stand in death but then you do Dun Scaith and you realize that you just have to accept some people are special.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rhindas

And I'd like to say we really shouldn't have to order people to not stand in death but then you do Dun Scaith and you realize that you just have to accept some people are special.

---

In the case of AI, it's really too much to ask for the AI "party members" to be scripted for the dungeon. Like I could maybe see the AI players being programmed on a per-dungeon case so they know not to step in bad, actually yell out hints when the player is making a mistake, etc. But at the same time it feels like playing with PUG's or players that leveled in POTD that have never step foot in the dungeon before.

For the most part I'm not sure where Square-Enix is going with this. If the intent was to have a party in the similar vein as the FFXI Adventuring Fellow, people won't bother forming parties for anything the AI player can do. And to be fair, Halitali and Stone Vigil are some of the most over-queued dungeons when you do leveling queue under level 50. So if this gives players (particularly DPS) another option, that's perfectly fine. But I somehow doubt we will see any real improvements to the AI without there being AI-player specific content. I just hope we never see them on the overworld.

So its not just my healer doing that stuff..(or doing nothing). I was lucky that she only died towards the end of the last boss fight in stone vigil. I was barely hurt and she healed me (while she was standing in her spot directly next to the tank too..) and never healed herself and then she died. I will truly just do these dungeons as a healer myself..the AI is just too bad.

Also the tank need some rework too. The last boss in stone vigil really shows this. First he attacks it right and the boss is turned away from us, but as soon as the boss flew once, the tank will tank him towards the group, always cleaving us hard. I can go behind the boss but somehow my DD dont care about this and just stand there with the tank. Calling them back does nothing because they all come back and they all just attack him the same way again.

We truly need better AI and more buttons where we can at least let the tank tank alone or where we can give people ways to position themselves better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

For the most part I'm not sure where Square-Enix is going with this.

---

Thats honestly something that I question too. I cant see them being able to clear the harder dungeons if they dont change their AI. So if they are only available for certain dungeons you cant even truly use them to farm stuff. Also if you have a job at 70 you can easily just solo these dungeons if you want to run them for certain things. Its faster and less annoying. So the only good thing right now is the exp, which is only more than the palace if you use quite the bit of exp boost and manage to run them under 10 minutes. (Which you seemingly can if you just spam engage all the time without doing anything yourself..which does not feel like that is intended) So if the exp was the only reason, then why was it necessary to put resources into a new system that is also not really that good thanks to their AI, if you could just simply give us exp while doing the dungeon unsynch?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alleo

We truly need better AI and more buttons where we can at least let the tank tank alone or where we can give people ways to position themselves better.

---

Ran into this today....DPS AI should by default be set to go behind the mob, as with healers (who should also learn to heal themselves)....

Also watching the WHM Aero for aggro and the tank running to Ul'dah and back before he engages...it feels very much like SE said 'buff Archer damage to max and who cares about any other AI?'

Thats honestly something that I question too. I cant see them being able to clear the harder dungeons if they dont change their AI. So if they are only available for certain dungeons you cant even truly use them to farm stuff. Also if you have a job at 70 you can easily just solo these dungeons if you want to run them for certain things. Its faster and less annoying. So the only good thing right now is the exp, which is only more than the palace if you use quite the bit of exp boost and manage to run them under 10 minutes. (Which you seemingly can if you just spam engage all the time without doing anything yourself..which does not feel like that is intended) So if the exp was the only reason, then why was it necessary to put resources into a new system that is also not really that good thanks to their AI, if you could just simply give us exp while doing the dungeon unsynch?[/QUOTE]

Just to see how much less squishy the AI is, I ran Stone Vigil as Scholar and let the fairy heal everything. I only invoked the party heal once, and that was right at the beginning of Isgebind because they all managed to get whacked by the first attack and the fairy needed time to recover. Under WHM or AST, you can probably get away with it too if you don't rush directly into danger (because let's be honest, the healer is always squishy.)

Also the difference between Normal, Defense, Offence and Balanced appears to be very little. The only thing that seems to have changed is the distance at which the rangers stand if you give them defensive, but otherwise I think it's just a stat boost and nothing more. In theory maybe "defensive" might make them try to avoid stepping in bad, but I'm thinking it's just a side-effect of having two rangers and lalafells are just smaller so it looks like they're closer.

Yeah I think you are right on that one. The strategy only affects their stats and nothing else. I really haven't noticed any difference behavior-wise.

when can i change my squadron healer to eos? uhm... i mean scholar?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hasrat

Use the Engage command. They'll have trouble even recognizing anything else exists. But obviously you need to do it every time the engaged target dies, or they fall back on their "No target, kill everything" strategy.

---

Well...duh...I assure you, I can read. And I did say that I had to use Engage in Wanderers Palace, so I clearly know about its existence.

The problem is that the AI doesn't need to be super smart, but it shouldn't be super dumb either. If I tank and I attack the closest mob, why on earth would the archer attack the mob further away?! The system for deciding the closer enemy (TAB targeting) is wholly messed up (TAB almost always picks something far away before it targets something close to me, no matter which mode), and these AI may use the same worthless code to decide what to attack. I should not need to use Engage for that. I should use Engage only if I want them to attack a different mob, like a random spawn that pops up. Except if the boss becomes invincible (Halatali second and third boss), then they should change targets on their own as well, without me having to use Engage.

The AI needs to be changed to be halfway decent on their own, and the command system should be there to make that halfway decent party into elite of the elite. Right now, it's neither. I don't need to be taught how to circumvent the flaws in the system as I know how to do that. I just pointed out what those flaws are.

Yea it drives me nuts seeing my healer cast Cure II on someone with 85% hp... but when they are at 10% hp they think Stone II is the way to go.

Mostly just hate how DPS AI auto-attacks the first mob they come across even if they're in Disengage mode the entire time :<

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Just to see how much less squishy the AI is, I ran Stone Vigil as Scholar and let the fairy heal everything. I only invoked the party heal once, and that was right at the beginning of Isgebind because they all managed to get whacked by the first attack and the fairy needed time to recover. Under WHM or AST, you can probably get away with it too if you don't rush directly into danger (because let's be honest, the healer is always squishy.)

Also the difference between Normal, Defense, Offence and Balanced appears to be very little. The only thing that seems to have changed is the distance at which the rangers stand if you give them defensive, but otherwise I think it's just a stat boost and nothing more. In theory maybe "defensive" might make them try to avoid stepping in bad, but I'm thinking it's just a side-effect of having two rangers and lalafells are just smaller so it looks like they're closer.

---

Funny how people defended their behavior and said that it would get better with more stats but it seems it does nothing for the AI. It just feels bad when those NPCs are doing things that I did not even see randoms do in dungeon.

Someone even said that the best way to do these dungeon is to go into this as a healer with two archers and stand back and just spam Engage every second because they will just go through their opener with that thus have immense DPS..I mean that does not sound much fun for me. I wish we gotten at least some new instances with them so it does not feel boring to just go through all those old dungeons again and again. I will do as much as I need for those emotions but otherwise I will not do more. There is nothing fun in that for me and I kinda wished that they used their time for something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nicodemus_Mercy

Yea it drives me nuts seeing my healer cast Cure II on someone with 85% hp... but when they are at 10% hp they think Stone II is the way to go.

---

Healers you see in DF are doing so much different?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

DPS AI is pretty damn good.

---

Archer pulls with barrage, then runs away from group after getting hate. Seems pretty dead on to me.

Well, the patch notes went live and there was nothing addressing the un-ending barrage spam. However:

Quote:

---

An issue wherein conjurer squadron members would not cast Cure II or Esuna on themselves during battle.

---

Reference: Here

I ran the dungeons on white mage to shamelessly get any exp, even though it was 60, while doing them for the emotes. For an overgeared healer that doesn't care if they made everything mad and getting hit for it, at first glance it doesn't look like there's any problems to be had. However the only issues I had are the tank running to where a mob was at the time aggro triggered is a little annoying, the tank dropping everything currently slapping his or my face to save our souls from a spider web I start casting on to open the way is pretty sad, but the absolute worst offender is the Tonberry King fight. The tank is no longer a tank. He is now a Mister Rogers zipping around the room to welcome every single damn tonberry to the neighborhood.

I knew he would do it because an fc member mentioned their tank doing it and they "died laughing watching him bounce around the room", but I did not know it was bad enough to cause a wipe the first go at it because there was so many stabbings and the king getting pissed that his subjects were dying to the squad going gung go on taking them out. After seeing that chaotic defeat I spent 99%u0025 of round two rapidly clicking on the engage to keep the squad in line and get the king down while quickly targeting whoever that needs healing with a regen and go back to targeting the king and spam engage before they screwed up again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Healers you see in DF are doing so much different?

---

I'm not sure I've ever seen a player healer have a complete disregard for their own survival. But then I am usually the healer in my dungeons and I have a strong sense of self preservation. :P I've mostly been using the squadron dungeon runs to level low lvl dps jobs I don't really enjoy and am not very good at so as not to impose my badness on actual people in the duty finder. >_>

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lilseph

Well, the patch notes went live and there was nothing addressing the un-ending barrage spam. However:



Reference: Here

---

ZOMG THANK YOU!