My idea for Black Mage is pretty simple. Reward the party simply for having them in your party and doing what they already do - melt faces.
Meltdown is a spell that's been around since FFVI, and it's come in many incarnations. For FFXIV, I'm thinking it can be a bit like the FFVIII version, but still maintaining its Fire aspect.
Meltdown - Level 62 Trait
Fire IV inflicts target with a stack of Meltdown. Meltdown stacks increase damage taken by 1%. All Meltdown stacks are lost when target is hit by Blizzard I, II, III, and IV and Freeze.
It plays on the idea that you're literally melting the targets defenses. This gives BLMs much needed utility, and most importantly offensive utility. Over a typical F4x6 Rotation, it'd be a 2.17% party damage increase.
It doesn't change the core of the job. It's not making them something BLM shouldn't be by adding a Raise. It just rewards them and their parties for doing what they already do.
Black Mage Idea - Meltdown
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10-14-2017, 12:15 PMAshenspireBlack Mage Idea - Meltdown
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10-14-2017, 12:27 PMRawrzDoing something like that would be fine, but it would be at the cost of lowering their personal DPS. You can't be the SAM caster, if you are padding everyone else's numbers. It is a pretty cool idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
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10-14-2017, 12:45 PMAshenspire
Summoner is now roughly equal to, if not pulling ahead of BLM and they have utility BLM does not. There's no need to adjust BLM's personal DPS at this point with a utility buff.
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10-14-2017, 12:48 PMRawrzSummoner isn't the only class that BLM gets compared to. The concept is called power creep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
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10-14-2017, 12:54 PMAshenspire
They're the closest comparison, and the one that should be made.
Summoners are ranged magical that are now pulling the same kind of DPS numbers as Black Mage while offering utility on top of it. Ranged magical are unattractive enough as is. If two of them do identical damage, but one brings all this other stuff as well, there's literally no reason to play the other.
It'd be like if Ninja pulled the same personal numbers as Samurai on top of all the other stuff they bring. -
10-14-2017, 12:57 PMRawrzIf that's true, you would nerf SMN, before you buffed BLM. BLM is directly compared to SAM for top DPS. If it brings the utility of a NIN and the DPS of a SAM... Then it's exactly the same hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
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10-14-2017, 01:01 PMAshenspire
But they're not going to nerf SMN after having just buffed them. Let's not kid ourselves.
I'm aware BLM and SAM are compared in terms of the numbers they produce, but they wouldn't typically be competing for the same spot. You'd compare what they bring to the table to other ranged DPS. -
10-14-2017, 01:34 PMSunako
That suggestion would make blm stronger than mch. It seems like you wanna make blm new meta class.
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10-14-2017, 01:43 PMKabooaAbout the only job that isn't exceeding Black Mage's DPS total to the Raid is Red Mage and even then it's close. Everyone else, all things considered, is doing the same or exceeding, and that's without considering non-damage tools they bring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawrz
The only notable place Black mage pulls ahead is on Halicarnassus, but that's from scumbagging the Ninjas, most likely. -
10-14-2017, 01:50 PMAshenspireIn a perfect world, Sam/mnk/blm/rdm would be just as attractive as drg/nin/brd/mch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
I'm not trying to make them the new meta class. I just want to see them with a purpose for existing, as they have no real identity currently in raid environments. -
10-14-2017, 02:11 PMGrimoire-M
I have a few SMN nerfs in mind tbh. Remove the Tri-Disaster reset. Remove Rouse. Nerf the potency on Ruin II back to 80. Make Bahamut only proc on spells. Half of those things fix some of the problems with SMN atm too.
For BLM the only thing you can really buff is Fire IV. Lower it and Blizzard IV's GCD to 2.5, add 10-20 potency, and see how the numbers play out. Any buffs anywhere else benefit the ARR rotation more, which we're trying to discourage atm. -
10-14-2017, 02:15 PMAshenspire
F4 and B4 currently have a 2.5s gcd. Think you mean cast time.
Potency buffs are boring. No reason we can't think outside the box.
This is directly tied to F4, further distancing the SB rotation from the ARR rotation. -
10-14-2017, 04:55 PMFerrinus
I would specifically tie a stacking on-hit debuff to every enemy hit by a fire spell whose mp cost is discounted by an umbral heart. That way using Fire 2 to soften up enemies before you Flare can come back into vogue.
And, I would make the debuff interact specifically with your other actions - maybe it’s vuln to your next Foul spell, for instance - rather than buff other players. Otherwise there’s be an incentive not to wipe/consume it for others’ sakes. -
10-14-2017, 07:05 PMWalielF2 is already worth it at 6 or more mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferrinus
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10-15-2017, 12:04 AMAshenspire7, not 6.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waliel
I thought about putting it on all Fire based spells, but you don't use an aoe ice spell in aoe situations, so everything that isn't your primary target would just keep stacking. -
10-15-2017, 12:51 AMSunako
Buff foul potency 700 - 800 and blm would be fine. Purpose of the job is EXPLOSION!
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10-15-2017, 01:01 AMPenceThey have an identity: Caster turret. Giving them support skills just lets them steal SMNs identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
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10-15-2017, 01:16 AMLlugen
As a BLM who is extremely concerned with the awful place that the job is in single target right now, I firmly approve. I'd also propose Blizzard IV adding +10% magic vulnerability for 45 seconds. This is "utility" for PLD and healer damage (and Raiton) as well as other casters (SMNs will always use Sicfrit now with the way Ruin IV works) without being over the top.
Many factors add together into BLM being weak in practice. It is extremely poor at handling movement/progression, meaning its "damage as utility" is already moot on that point. Consider SAM, which is the samurai of... samurai..... and how it is significantly easier to play than the other melee AND has great mobility AND does high damage with low utility. This alone is a massive problem for BLM.
All "utility" means is damage that isn't the target's own. Trick Attack is party damage, Battle Litany is party damage, even things like Troubadour theoretically mean that healers have to work less hard and can, you guessed it, add damage. With this in mind, party utility classes and the way they work together with other utilities (hypercharge, stratagem, trick attack, and foe requiem all being up together) is VASTLY superior to anything that any "selfish DPS" job can contribute. -
10-15-2017, 01:24 AMKabooaIt needs more than .66 to 4 more potency per second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
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10-15-2017, 02:00 AMLlugen
Refer to the other massive BLM thread for a list of suggestions that I have for the class, but tl;dr, the damage that it has right now WOULD be mostly fine (still could use a little buff) if its mobility wasn't such a significant loss. Compare to RDM which can move every other cast not to mention melee combo and other instant casts (Verflare/holy and Swiftcast) and SMN which has a loss of -30 potency for using Ruin II over Ruin III (and can also utilize Ruin IV procs for this).
"Turret DPS" is just plain and simple NOT OK when your mechanics are like Blizzard in Exdeath and Shinryu Ballad where you have to constantly move for 3-4 seconds, among others. In light of this, buffs/quality of life for mobility would go further than flat potency increases of any kind. For example, Thundercloud refreshing your Astral/Umbral timer would mean not having to lose a Fire IV from movement. -
10-15-2017, 03:15 AMFerrinusIIRC that’s if you don’t take T4 into account. Once you do, it ends up more economical to avoid F2 until you’ve got like eleven or twelve mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waliel
All that said I’d like it to be worthwhile to go F2 F2 Flare in “standard” aoe situations, like if there’s just four or five targets. You know, whenever the total potency on Fire2 exceeds the total on Fire4. -
10-15-2017, 03:24 AMLlugen
Even with 3 targets, F2 is almost as strong as F4, but the refresh of astral fire and "spread" of damage (rather than letting something die faster than other things) is "worth" it, to me. At 4 targets, it is stronger (320 base potency vs 260). Besides, when are you only going to pull 3 mobs..?
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10-15-2017, 03:48 AMFerrinus
The question isn’t how F2 compares to F4 but how it compares to Flare. If you have a group of enemies, should you go F2 F2 Flare Flare, or just skip straight to Flare? Turns out it’s mostly the latter, especially since you have Thunder 4 to fill some of Transpose’s cooldown.
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10-15-2017, 04:03 AMLlugen
I'd say if you get the proc then yes and if you don't then no, but that makes sense and is valid, yeah.
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10-15-2017, 04:59 AMAshenspireCaster turret isn't their identity in raid environments, as that identity is detrimental as they bring nothing but raw dps that can easily be ruined due to mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pence
With my proposed change, their identity is still caster turret, they just bring a little bit of raid identity by giving little phases of extra oomph to everyone because they're literally melting faces. -
10-15-2017, 05:42 AMKarshanI like the idea, but too many stacks (2.17% permanent buff ? With a 24 000 group DPS it's 520 raid DPS, way too much for just one guy to bring).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
What could be would be that Ice IV has two effects : 3 umbral hearts for you, and three umbral stacks on the boss, that would work kinda like embolden but in debuff and for all kind of damage.
3 stacks, each stack is a 1% vulne and one stack fades off every 3 seconds (3% > 2% > 1%), so it would be something like 2% average debuff on what, 30% uptime (9sec every 30), which is a 0,6% raid buff (2.5 times more than devotion)
Plus it would adress the problem of gong back to arr rotation, since it would be on Ice 4 -
10-15-2017, 06:10 AMDualgunner
"BLM can't get any utilities or buffs, it'd steal SMN's identity!"
SMN stole BLM's identity as the SAM of casters tbh if you look at the numbers.
(using 75th percentiles)
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=42 <-SMN beats BLM at V1S
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=43 <-SMN beats BLM at V2S
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=44 <-SMN not only beats BLM, but beats SAM at V3S.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=45 <-SMN not only beats BLM, but beats SAM at ExFaust.
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#boss=46 <-SMN beats BLM at Neo "The One" Exdeath
There isn't a single fight in the 75th percentile of the logs where BLM beats SMN. There are two where SMN beats SAM. And on top of that SMN has utility it brings too.
So this imaginary OP super BLM that is SAM and utility...already exists. It's called SMN. -
10-16-2017, 02:48 AMAshenspireQuote:
Originally Posted by Karshan
A ~2% raid increase isn't too much for one guy. Ninja brings more that with Trick Attack alone, not to mention the enmity tools and slash resist for the tanks to do more dps. -
10-16-2017, 07:45 AMKarshan
What I meant was that it would be like an equivalent of +500 to BLM damage, while 500 is the whole span between jobs at 95% on O1S
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10-16-2017, 08:45 AMShiroe^ this might fix blmQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
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10-16-2017, 09:31 AMChaozK2% is actually insane and would be more than nin or brd. The idea sounds fun but you would definitely need to make it a cd instead of a permanent trait. Else its just broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
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10-16-2017, 12:11 PMSunakoSummoner devotion is 2% with 1/8 uptime average 0.25% damage buffQuote:
Originally Posted by Ashenspire
Radiant shield is 2% with 1/3 uptime average 0.67% physical damage taken buff
Contagion is 10% with 1/4 uptime average 2.5% magical damage taken buff
Monk brotherhood is 5% with 1/6 uptime average 0.83% physical damage buff
RDM embolden is average 6% with 1/6 uptime average 1% physical damage taken buff
MCH hypercharge is 6% with 1/4 uptime average 1.5% damage taken buff
Ninja trick attack is 10% with 1/6 uptime average 1.67% damage taken buff
2.17% is huge damage buff for whole party. -
10-16-2017, 11:15 PMSylvain
I'd rather have them buff the BLM dmg to be on par with SAM (if not more when fight is advantageous for the BLM such as os2)
Oh and, a fusion of Ley Line / Between the Lines and FireIV/IceIV. -
10-17-2017, 01:42 AMSpeckledBurd
It'd probably be healthier for the game as a whole if we see Summoner, Machinist, Ninja and Bard's damage come down than see one job at a time come up as SE tries to balance things honestly. That improves Monk, Samurai and Black Mage's viability rather than just Black Mage's and it avoids the constant counter buffing that created the double ranged physical comp.
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10-18-2017, 04:57 AMAshenspireConsidering how burst phases are centered around Trick Attack, it ends up being more than 1.67%. While this could be optimized around, it wouldn't be beyond maybe the openerQuote:
Originally Posted by Sunako
Like I said, could easily cap it at 3 stacks, which drops it to ~1%.
Straight Potency buffs are boring, and won\\'t work well with the game in terms of group attractiveness. Offensive utility is king in this game. -
10-18-2017, 11:12 PMLlugen
Finally someone who agrees with me about straight potency buffs being boring/band-aids!!
To balance it, they could just make it a proc chance or yeah cap it at 3. This, coupled with some of my suggestions regarding movement and the astral/umbral timer and thunder dot timers could really fix the class in a great way. -
10-19-2017, 11:53 AMFrizze
I mean, if the problem is what percentage of a boost it ends up being to the party you can change the numbers until the math works out the way you want it to. I would be in favor of some sort of buff like this.
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10-20-2017, 02:57 AMSandpark
Reward the party simply for having them in your party and doing what they already do - melt faces.
AfterMath - Level 50 Trait
Fire & Ice Spells inflicts a dot of embers or frost. Aftermath last 9 seconds or until the next fire or ice spell lands then is refreshed.
This gives BLM damage in between long cast and movement.
It doesn't change the core of the job.
BLM shouldn't have a raise, they should have a personal buff based off the party situation.
Wrath Of The Sorceror - Level 62 Trait
Anytime a party member falls below 20% health. Cast speed and critical damage is increased by 5% for 9 seconds.
Anytime a party member dies. Cast Speed and critical damage is increased by 10% for 9 seconds.
These don't stack. If two black mages are present, each blm can only have one scenario in effect at one time. -
10-20-2017, 04:03 AMLlugen
I would still argue for a BLM raise off-gcd for the sake of class balance, but someone suggested in one of the threads instead of having a raise on a target giving the job the ability to raise itself if it dies. This could fit possibly.
I don't like the idea of other party members dying/hurting giving any job buffs. This alludes strongly to grief play or deliberate damage taking which has ominous implications for the duty finder, and my guess is that SE would agree with me on that. Additional dots for strength might not be "bad" per se, but it might fly in the face of their "button bloat reduction" that they gave the rest of the jobs by removing lots of dots, so I doubt that would be a solution they would gravitate toward, either.