Veteran rewards....

Does this mean my time subscribed is no longer worth anything? Can we at least get like achievement points for how long we've subscribed? I no longer see the motivation to stay subscribed because there are no more rewards....

You only ever stayed subscribed for some bonus items?
Not for, like, the game itself?

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Originally Posted by Bakabridget

Does this mean my time subscribed is no longer worth anything? Can we at least get like achievement points for how long we've subscribed? I no longer see the motivation to stay subscribed because there are no more rewards....

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Eh? Playing the game is not worth your sub?

I stay subscribed because I was too lazy to unsubscribe and/or forgot. But dammit, I want atleast something out of that accidental wasted subscription time/money!

All I want, in regards to this:

1) Better timing so in a couple months I would get the Firion minion and not have to spend anything for it.
1b) Or, at least, have the sort of shop be more like "Oh, you've reached this many achievement points. Here, have any of these now-available certificates to trade in for the thing you want."
2) The ability to return or delete unwanted items in my mail, so I can turn down the outfits I'm about to get and do not want, rather than HAVING to accept the items to make room for crafting requests I get, HAVING to go through inventory or armory, and then deleting the unwanted items that way along with HAVING to select through the extra "Are you sure?" prompt every single time.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

1b) Or, at least, have the sort of shop be more like "Oh, you've reached this many achievement points. Here, have any of these now-available certificates to trade in for the thing you want."

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That sounds like what we're getting:

"Starting in Patch 4.1, players will be able to use their achievement points to purchase achievement certificates by speaking with Jonathas in Old Gridania ( X:10.6 Y:6.3). Certificates can then be used to purchase rewards of your choosing."

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

2) The ability to return or delete unwanted items in my mail, so I can turn down the outfits I'm about to get and do not want, rather than HAVING to accept the items to make room for crafting requests I get, HAVING to go through inventory or armory, and then deleting the unwanted items that way along with HAVING to select through the extra "Are you sure?" prompt every single time.

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Or just dump them all in your armoire and ignore the ones you don't care about. It's not like they have to take up space (though I suppose they clutter your armoire list a bit if you're really never going to want them).

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Originally Posted by Bakabridget

I stay subscribed because I was too lazy to unsubscribe and/or forgot. But dammit, I want atleast something out of that accidental wasted subscription time/money!

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If you consider your time played in this game wasted, perhaps you should stop playing then. If you have been paying monthly for vanity items in a game that you seem to play rather rarely, subbed or not, then you have been subscribing for the entirely wrong reasons.

Wasted money due to your own laziness to unsubscribe is no one’s fault but your own.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

That sounds like what we're getting:

"Starting in Patch 4.1, players will be able to use their achievement points to purchase achievement certificates by speaking with Jonathas in Old Gridania ( X:10.6 Y:6.3). Certificates can then be used to purchase rewards of your choosing."

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What it sounds like, to me, is we have to spend our achievement points to get the missing rewards we want. Perhaps some clarity is or was in order.

This isn't like in City of Heroes/Villains where each sub time achievement had a button on it we could click to receive our rewards, or just let the button sit there if the rewards don't interest us. I don't expect ever for FFXIV to follow the same suit.

What I do expect is some contrived system, because Squeenix.

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Or just dump them all in your armoire and ignore the ones you don't care about. It's not like they have to take up space (though I suppose they clutter your armoire list a bit if you're really never going to want them).

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Or they could make the outfits follow the same rules as the minions and other items now relegated to this new shop, and save me the trouble either way. Because yes, I could go to the Armoire just a few feet further and save the one "Are you sure?" step on each item, you're absolutely right, but the nuisance remains, regardless of whether I want those last two outfits in there or not.

And there's the problem, really, is that the free items that we know are remaining free are being given to us whether we want them or not, the items I know I do want are being moved to a shop when the last one was a stone's throw away (not to mention the above point where it's unclear whether we're spending the points or just requiring them), and the vet reward system has been turned into campaigns that are timed so as to keep people paying for a sub in the month or three before the next content patch (additionally leaving some vets feeling more jilted than others) when chances are that a good number of people might have wanted to save their money for a month or two and have to suddenly make that choice.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

What it sounds like, to me, is we have to spend our achievement points to get the missing rewards we want. Perhaps some clarity is or was in order.

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What remains unclear about that part? It explicitly stated that we SPEND the certificates, and that we can choose which rewards to get for them. You can trade them in for whichever things you want, which seems exactly like what you asked for there.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

... and the vet reward system has been turned into campaigns that are timed so as to keep people paying for a sub in the month or three before the next content patch (additionally leaving some vets feeling more jilted than others)

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No, they did that before (with the falcon mount), but it sounds like this new system is taking its place. I wouldn't expect any more timed campaigns like that.

In fact, the one thing that does remain unclear is whether the falcon mount is included. They did say that "all items no longer available as veteran rewards can now be obtained through in-game means." And the falcon mount campaign was a type of veteran reward. It was, in fact, SE's first attempt to change the vet rewards program to have shorter timeframes. It seems they've abandoned that idea now, and are going with this achievement certificates version instead.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

What remains unclear about that part? It explicitly stated that we SPEND the certificates, and that we can choose which rewards to get for them. You can trade them in for whichever things you want, which seems exactly like what you asked for there.

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I'm going to let you scroll back up to your own post and look at what you read before this one. Self-contradictions are silly.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

Self-contradictions are silly.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

have the sort of shop be more like "Oh, you've reached this many achievement points. Here, have any of these now-available certificates to trade in for the thing you want."

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

What it sounds like, to me, is we have to spend our achievement points to get the missing rewards we want.

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players will be able to use their achievement points to purchase achievement certificates by speaking with Jonathas... Certificates can then be used to purchase rewards of your choosing.

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You get certificates that you can then trade in for the things you want. And that's exactly the way you said you wanted it to work. Where's the confusion in that?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Exactly.





You get certificates that you can then trade in for the things you want. And that's exactly the way you said you wanted it to work. Where's the confusion in that?

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No, it's not.

What I said I wanted:

"You have achieved a fine status with all of these trophies. Here, have this thing at no cost to you."

The thing it looks like we're getting:

"These are some nice trophies you're getting. Remember that thing you were getting for free anyways in a couple months? It's going to cost you some of those trophies instead."

If anyone here is confused, it's you.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

What I said I wanted:

"You have achieved a fine status with all of these trophies. Here, have this thing at no cost to you."

The thing it looks like we're getting:

"These are some nice trophies you're getting. Remember that thing you were getting for free anyways in a couple months? It's going to cost you some of those trophies instead."

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It's not costing any trophies. This doesn't make any change to those. But besides any direct achievement rewards (like we get now), you'll also be getting certificates based on the number of (up to now useless) points you get for achievements. Then you can take those certificates and get your choice of rewards for them.

I don't know what sort of thresholds we need to meet to earn those certificates, but the basic pattern described in the announcement is exactly what you were asking for.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

It's not costing any trophies. This doesn't make any change to those. But besides any direct achievement rewards (like we get now), you'll also be getting certificates based on the number of (up to now useless) points you get for achievements. Then you can take those certificates and get your choice of rewards for them.

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Then that's not really spending, is it?

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

Then that's not really spending, is it?

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It's not spending anything that you can get now, though it's adding something new that you can spend.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

It's not spending anything that you can get now, though it's adding something new that you can spend.

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Then you're missing the point. I'm not talking about spending the certificates, at all.

Again, I was referring to HOW to get those certificates, and the way the wording has been used to describe it. The way it describes the process is that we spend our achievement points, with some little room for interpretation for not spending them in order to get the certificates. My original post, and what I have been saying all along, is that I am hoping that instead the game looks at what we have and just hands us those items, even if it's the certificate for that item we have to redeem elsewhere for that item (which is another subject I don't even want to get into here).

Meanwhile, you word your counter arguments in a way that contradict your previous counter-arguments. That's something I generally only see in forums by a user just trying to troll others, only to end up looking like a moron in the process. I don't know you, but I get the sneaking suspicion you're not a moron, even if this whole argument we're having is mindblowingly stupid. So are you still having a problem with what I'm trying to say here, or are you only here attempting to troll others because that's your primary source of entertainment? I'm trying to work with you here so you understand the basic concepts of what in blazes I'm even talking about, which, one last time, is about the acquisition of the items (or certificates) using our numerous achievement points that have been there for show since before this game even used them (versus simply getting these things for meeting requirements)? If you're just going to blow off my explanations with more unnecessary tomfoolery, then that too would be nice to know.

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

I was referring to HOW to get those certificates, and the way the wording has been used to describe it. The way it describes the process is that we spend our achievement points, with some little room for interpretation for not spending them in order to get the certificates. My original post, and what I have been saying all along, is that I am hoping that instead the game looks at what we have and just hands us those items, even if it's the certificate for that item we have to redeem elsewhere for that item (which is another subject I don't even want to get into here).

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So is your whole issue really just about the difference between (using bogus example numbers):

A) When you pass a threshold of 500 points you're given a certificate. When you pass a threshold of 1000 points you're given another certificate. When you pass a threshold of 1500 points you're given another certificate. And so on at each 500 point interval.

B) Whenever you have more than 500 points, you can trade those points for a certificate.

But those two are functionally identical. Either way, earning 1000 points gets you two certificates, or earning 2000 points gets you four certificates, and so on. They're the exact same thing. You had talked earlier about it costing you something that we're getting now, and it's not. Currently we get nothing. Soon we'll be getting achievement certificates (and then, in turn, gear/mounts/minions).

You mentioned getting the achievement certificates would cost you trophies, but those have nothing to do with points. There are things you can get for various individual achievements, but none that pertain to how many points you have.

(At least none of the current trophies have anything to do with points. If SE is going with pattern "A", though, they'd likely do it by just adding a new series of achievements for amassing points, with a reward for reaching each threshold along the way. It would have the advantage that giving out the certificates would then match what Jonathas already does now, which might be simpler at their end compared to adding a trade in function.)

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

Meanwhile, you word your counter arguments in a way that contradict your previous counter-arguments.

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No, nothing I've said has contradicted anything else I've said. If you think it did, that just means that you misconstrued what I was saying at some point, though I really don't see how you could have. If you'd let me know what it was you didn't understand, I could try to make it clearer.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

You mentioned getting the achievement certificates would cost you trophies, but those have nothing to do with points. There are things you can get for various individual achievements, but none that pertain to how many points you have.

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Yes, those are rewards for specific achievements, such as the three Garo mounts for winning PVP so many times with a related title on, the Parade Chocobo for reaching a few thousand commendations on that character, or any of the hideous crowns (I've yet to see anyone wear, btw) that come with getting current combat classes/jobs all to the level cap (one at 50, 60 and 70 each). On a side note, you go to the same NPC and get the item, instead of a certificate to go get the item. No one's arguing against this that I can see. This actually has little, if anything, to do with what we're talking about here.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

So is your whole issue really just about the difference between (using bogus example numbers):

A) When you pass a threshold of 500 points you're given a certificate. When you pass a threshold of 1000 points you're given another certificate. When you pass a threshold of 1500 points you're given another certificate. And so on at each 500 point interval.

B) Whenever you have more than 500 points, you can trade those points for a certificate.

But those two are functionally identical. Either way, earning 1000 points gets you two certificates, or earning 2000 points gets you four certificates, and so on. They're the exact same thing. You had talked earlier about it costing you something that we're getting now, and it's not. Currently we get nothing. Soon we'll be getting achievement certificates (and then, in turn, gear/mounts/minions).

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I either know a good deal of people, or know OF a great many more, who could tell you otherwise if they bothered with the forums. These are not functionally the same.

One just requires and rewards you with the item, albeit with the extra step of the certificate you will be handed. This method allows achievement hunters to keep their points--hence the similarity I drew to trophies earlier--and show them off via linkshells or XIVDB (or possibly other means). There's no real choice to make here other than whether or not to go to Gridania so they can get their things, still for free (certificates/vouchers not really counted as a currency). Going back into random numbers, SE would estimate how many points a character might have on average in a span of one to three months, so let's say having 6000 points grants you a Firion minion (currently 960 day), or 150 for the Wind-up Cursor (currently 30-day).

The other looks at your points like a currency, and those same hunters would be left with the choice between the items they're missing or keeping their points that, I'm sure, so many common players simply don't care about, but THEY do. If they choose to keep the points then they miss out on those things that were once free and coming to them before this change came along, because the items become no longer free if the points become a currency. This way, you might spend 150 points you'll never see again on that same Wind-up Cursor, or a few thousand on the Firion minion.

Not. Functionally. Similar. If you want to compare the two then you might as well do the same between a stationary exercise bike, that's hooked up to a quality, gas-powered electric generator, and a motorcycle that is leaking fuel. Or, compare a plastic slice of apple pie, that is only there for display purposes, versus a homemade apple pie. They work differently, I guarantee it.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

No, nothing I've said has contradicted anything else I've said. If you think it did, that just means that you misconstrued what I was saying at some point, though I really don't see how you could have. If you'd let me know what it was you didn't understand, I could try to make it clearer.

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Oh no?

*Looks through your posts in this topic and sees the specific use of "certificates" (where we trade them in) in just about every one that she didn't see there before*

Curious. Then why in the Ascians' unwashed undies did you deem it necessary to keep arguing rather than simply point out, from the start, that I might have been missing that one detail? I normally don't miss this sort of thing. On the other hand, I have been pointing out through this whole thread that I have been talking about the wording that SE has chosen for how these purchases are handled, and you chose to practically jump in place shouting "Yes, we are getting certificates just like you're suggesting!" with no proof that we're going the requisite route instead of the currency one.

Why, in the unspoken hells of Titan's butt crack after a taco Tuesday, did you try pounding that one point home, about us trading in certificates, when my concern and expression were in regards to how we get those certificates? See, because you were so adamant about something I wasn't even talking about at the get-go, regardless of whether your usage of certificate was there the whole time or not (and I'm not doubting that it was, btw, but only how odd it is that I would have missed that one minute detail), we ended up in this stupid argument that got us nowhere fast when all that would have sufficed was that you ask for a little clarity in regards to what my concern was about. If it actually does turn out that we're going the requisite route, then that would be great news.

What other tiny things do you try driving home that only leaves people feeling unhappy?

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Now that we are finally back to where we started, here is what I desire in regards to the Vet Reward changes:

1) Better timing so in a couple months I would get the Firion minion and not have to spend any tangible for it.
1b) Or, at least, have the sort of shop be more like "Oh, you've reached this many achievement points. Here, have any of these now-available certificates to trade in for the thing you want." Better than that WOULD be to just get the items directly, like to you with most Vet Rewards already, save for the swimsuit tokens, but I can accept walking to the right NPC the next time I'm in the neighborhood, which can be quite often. Please, SE, don't go turning things into currencies that have no right being turned into currencies.
2) The ability to return or delete unwanted items in my mail, so I can turn down the outfits I'm about to get and do not want, rather than HAVING to accept the items to make room for crafting requests I get, HAVING to go through inventory or armory, and then deleting the unwanted items that way along with HAVING to select through the extra "Are you sure?" prompt every single time (or even HAVING to walk to the Armoire to dump it all in there and try to forget I had that stuff in hand).

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Originally Posted by Aster_E

"These are some nice trophies you're getting. Remember that thing you were getting for free anyways in a couple months? It's going to cost you some of those trophies instead."

If anyone here is confused, it's you.

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Going to single this out for a brief second, but you do realize that none of what you were getting was free, right? Veteran Rewards were never free and they never will be, they were tied to subscription time which is something you paid for with real money. That means none of what you received as ever free, and did in fact have a monetary value.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

Going to single this out for a brief second, but you do realize that none of what you were getting was free, right? Veteran Rewards were never free and they never will be, they were tied to subscription time which is something you paid for with real money. That means none of what you received as ever free, and did in fact have a monetary value.

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Incorrect. You're paying real money for your subscription, and the Vet Rewards were both a bonus and an incentive at no extra cost. You're not paying for those items with game time applied as a free bonus, nor did the subscription include the items in its pricing or else we would officially be getting gypped the moment patch goes live and the full sub price goes to the sub and sub alone.

It's like if ever ever do business buying from somewhere, and they throw in a bonus item at no cost to you. The only real reason you might be thinking you're paying for that small item you may or may not care for is to justify the pricetag on all that you're actually setting out to buy when, in fact, you're just buying everything but the bonus item.

Yowza, you love to drop walls on someone for simple statements huh? Regardless, veteran rewards were promised for continued subscription time, this is not the same as being given something else at no cost. They were/are an incentive to keep subscribing. Thus, whether you want to believe it or not, you were in fact paying for those items as you had to reach that amount of days subscribed; and thus the required monetary investment, to receive them. Its not like walking into a store and being given a freebie no matter how much you pay on a transaction, it's not a special sale with a bonus item that is being provided for no cost. There was a pre-determined monetary value involved which was chosen specifically for that tier, if that doesn't count as "paying" for an item, then I'm not sure what else would.

Regardless though, I won't argue semantics with you any further so feel free to reply to this but I won't.

Why are we talking achievements and trophies? They have nothing to do with veterans rewards... my understanding is that instead of getting a set minion/mount/gear for subscribing for x amount of time you gain certificates which you take to johnathas to trade in for items of your choosing.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

Why are we talking achievements and trophies? They have nothing to do with veterans rewards... my understanding is that instead of getting a set minion/mount/gear for subscribing for x amount of time you gain certificates which you take to johnathas to trade in for items of your choosing.

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That's just it. I'm trying to find clarity in where we're getting the certificates. The thing says we're using achievement points to purchase certificates, and that's as far as it says without noting if we're spending those points like a currency or using them like a requirement. That's why we were talking about achievements. =p

So now we know for sure how this works, and I approve to a bemused degree.

It doesn't cost you your points; instead it rewards you for your efforts. For every 50 Achievement Points you earn, that's another certificate given to you (on your achievement window, not the currency one). The once-vet rewards are cheap in terms of how many certificates they cost. It would cost a total of 25 or 27 certificates to get one of each of everything--27 because of two cascade vouchers for the two pieces of black swimsuit--so 6350 achievement points would be enough for all of the old rewards up to, and including, the Firion minion.

I had thrown in 6000 as a number before, as the case for getting the last item listed. This way, however? You can get those old rewards in any order, and only pick up the ones you want, as opposed to having a separate certificate per reward based on reaching tiers on the achievement points. So yay, none of that; just do content and pick up the items you desire.