Tanks Letting DPS Die

For the past 2 or 3 weeks, I've ran into this kind of tanks at least once a week, and I usually only spend 1 or 2 days in DF to get weeklies done. They'd sit in their DPS stance, make no effort to get aggro when lost, and let their DPS party members die when they pulled off. This is pretty obvious since the DPS that pulled usually ends up tanking the boss for a good 10 to 15 seconds before dying. All of these tanks would mention using Diversion in party chat, so its not like they're a new tank who doesn't know what's going on, but they're favoring their own personal performance over the party's performance just to push their numbers. So, I've looked up the tanks that have behaved this way, and every one of them were posting big numbers and cleared Omega Savage.

So, is this something you've encountered? What can be done to discourage this kind of behavior? Or, should it just simply be use DF with people you know? Or, maybe I've just been unlucky.

Well, I personally just use diversion in that case. Shadewalker too, if I'm on NIN. If diversion doesn't work, I tell them diversion doesn't work and ask them to throw an extra aggro combo because I've done everything I could at that point except purposely holding back DPS.

I have yet to run into any tanks that act this way. Usually, when I take aggro it's either the tank being new and not knowing how to maintain aggro properly or my own mistakes (bad timing on diversion, attacking the wrong thing, etc.). If it's my fault then I apologize for it, if it's the tank's fault then usually the entire party notices and everyone gives them advice on how to maintain aggro better, and I lower my own DPS output to make their lives easier even if it results in the battle taking longer.

Of course, proper use of Diversion and your enmity tools as a DPS is important to ensure you do your part as well but if you're already doing your part then communication's important to let your tank know they need to push up their enmity generation a bit to adjust, or lower your personal DPS output in case they simply cannot keep up assuming that you holding back won't cause even more trouble to the run.

Could be a number of things really. You could be doing a single target rotation on a pack, dps during a pull, not using your aggro reduction. Or your tank had a bad day. Tanks catch crap for all sorts of issues. He might have let you die cause of a troublesome dps in his last dungeon. It gets to a point where a tank just stops carring and finds it satisfying to watch a dps die.

Ummm Lucid Dream, Diversion, shadewalker, smokescreen, refresh, and tactician all exist.

Personally I never lose aggro but if i did and the dps didn't even bother using aggro reduction then...I wanna say I'll let them die but that wouldn't really accomplish anything really...so uhh I'd be very frustrated. But it wouldn't ever come to that bc I'd pop on tank stance if aggro got that close....and be very salty.

Aggro is a group effort. Not just the tank. You're literally making the fight take longer for no reason. And don't blame this on the dps stance, blame it on the bad tank. That's like blaming the car in a car accident lol. /endrant

I never have issues with aggro on mobs. Even at expert roulettes. Usually what I'll do is stay in tank stance for most pulls to help better mitigate damage. Once I have established well enough hate on 2-3 hate combo rotations, I'll switch to DPS stance and go ham. For PLD though, man, the amount of tears of healers who like to dps and worry less about healing the tank, they love me. Clemency ftmfw baby!

I'm probably in the minority, but I'm a tank that gets involved in the content (granted my weakness is dropping tank stance).

Even if a DPS player pulls, I simply grab it off him.
Even if a WHM casts Medica II pre-pull, I just go the extra mile to use more enmity.

I generally don't care how others play, unless it's breaking me as a tank. An example of this is the WHM spamming dps and relying on Benediction or Largese + healing spells only to keep me alive, then dislikes that I use Clemency.

Aggro management is a party commitment, not only the tank's.

Sure, it's primarily the tank job to hold aggro, but all the DPSs are given tools to help him do it and they should be using them. If they are not, then those DPSs are just as well favoring their own laziness over a tank's performance, who most likely is trying to pull good numbers to help clear the instance faster.

At the end of the day, communication is the key. Talk to your tank, ask him to use a little more enmity on the next pull and let him know you are already doing the minimal, which is using your aggro management skills. You'd be surprised at how many of them will listen to you once they know you too are putting in the effort.

If I notice a dps is pulling aggro or if someone runs off to pull more i just follow/aggro what they pull. Theres no reason to be a dick and just let them die, be a team player and pick it up. If you don't want to pull more just be upfront easy as that.

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Originally Posted by Hookla

Theres no reason to be a dick and just let them die...

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If it happens in real life your a dick, if it happens in a game it's funny.

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Originally Posted by Sakagami

So, is this something you've encountered? What can be done to discourage this kind of behavior? Or, should it just simply be use DF with people you know? Or, maybe I've just been unlucky.

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We can fix it by the DPS actually using their enmity management tools, which hardly any do?

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Originally Posted by Sakagami

.... All of these tanks would mention using Diversion in party chat, so its not like they're a new tank who doesn't know what's going on, but they're favoring their own personal performance over the party's performance just to push their numbers. So, I've looked up the tanks that have behaved this way, and every one of them were posting big numbers and cleared Omega Savage.....

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No. It costs you NO dps to use diversion/lucid dreaming, but it costs the tank to use their weakest rotation AND/OR forcing them back int tank stance. So No. YOU are the one favouring your own damn performance over everyone elses. Use diversion FFS. It's an oGCD that indirectly boosts the tanks DPS with no costs to your own. I let the DPS die when they think it's funny to burst me or just flat out never use it then when they rip aggro, they magically have it on their hotbars. It's so satisfying. lmao. Yeah, i'm petty, but idc.

If tanks get shit for not using their CDs, then why can't the dps get shit for not using their utility? too much lazy and clueless people in that role, I swear.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

No. It costs you NO dps to use diversion/lucid dreaming, but it costs the tank to use their weakest rotation AND/OR forcing them back int tank stance. So No. YOU are the one favouring your own damn performance over everyone elses. Use diversion FFS. It's an oGCD that indirectly boosts the tanks DPS with no costs to your own. I let the DPS die when they think it's funny to burst me or just flat out never use it then when they rip aggro, they magically have it on their hotbars. It's so satisfying. lmao. Yeah, i'm petty, but idc.

If tanks get shit for not using their CDs, then why can't the dps get shit for not using their utility? too much lazy people in that role, I swear.

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This, SOOOOO much this.

I play both Dps and Tank, and since I play tank, I always take something to down my enmity when I play dps.
Tanks are not here to spam Flash or something like this all during the dungeon, I sometime have players that make mono-target dps during big pull, and they take the aggro very quickly. I'm already busy to survive with the heal, I don't need someone to make my job more harder.
I guess that's one of the reasons tanks are fewer and fewer in the game.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

No. It costs you NO dps to use diversion/lucid dreaming, but it costs the tank to use their weakest rotation AND/OR forcing them back int tank stance. So No. YOU are the one favouring your own damn performance over everyone elses. Use diversion FFS. It's an oGCD that indirectly boosts the tanks DPS with no costs to your own. I let the DPS die when they think it's funny to burst me or just flat out never use it then when they rip aggro, they magically have it on their hotbars. It's so satisfying. lmao. Yeah, i'm petty, but idc.

If tanks get shit for not using their CDs, then why can't the dps get shit for not using their utility? too much lazy people in that role, I swear.

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Sure thing.
But when diversion and lucid have been used properly, and still the caster has two mobs on him because they weren't taken properly in the first place ("oh, two unprovoked, what a surprise that the heal/caster gets them on his spine the first action he does"), open your f*ing eyes, see a mob is out, and get it back.
I mean I play tank as well and I'm sick of those not making sure they have aggro on all before going for the next pack.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

Sure thing.
I mean I play tank as well and I'm sick of those not making sure they have aggro on all before going for the next pack.

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Well, that usually happens when dps start attacking while the tank is still pulling. If you're a smn and you use tri-disaster->bane->painflare while the tank's still pulling mobs you deserve to die. Same if you're a blm and swiftcast foul during a chain pull.
Of course if the tank failed to properly hit some mobs with flash/overpower etc. and is still running to the next pack it's his fault, but I've seen way too many dps that just start throwing everything they have at the mobs without even making sure whether the tank is going to pull another pack or not.

Oh, rdm that start a boss fight with CaC->melee combo without using diversion deserve to die as well.

I have never encountered this issue before unless I'm on SMN and I'm being an idiot I.e. using bahamut and my stacks with no diversion or lucid which is noone fault but my own.....DPS need to be held accountable for their enmity as well I see it to many times

Unless you're playing SAM or MNK, you have plenty of enmity management tools available. DPS never goad during AoE pulls, they never manashift healers, they never use their free enmity management; DPS are spoiled by the fact that nobody expects anything out of them.

When threat starts throttling DPS, it's the tanks responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

Sure thing.
But when diversion and lucid have been used properly, and still the caster has two mobs on him because they weren't taken properly in the first place ("oh, two unprovoked, what a surprise that the heal/caster gets them on his spine the first action he does"), open your f*ing eyes, see a mob is out, and get it back.
I mean I play tank as well and I'm sick of those not making sure they have aggro on all before going for the next pack.

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Nice strawman. If I'm doing a big pull and I miss a mob, obviously I'll run back and get it, how is that the DPS's fault? oh, but i'll tell you what IS the DPS's fault, if I'm doing a big pull or still in the process of pulling mobs and they go crazy on one enemy and rip aggro or when I'm still pulling and you get that (are, but it's hapened to me) BLM/SMN that uses their AOE burst whilst I'm still pulling causing a bunch of mobs to aggo on them, making me have to interupt he run, and run back, picking them up.

This is interesting to see posts from healers and tanks saying they voluntarily let their team members die... When I started playing this game as a tank when the DPS start to overdo it I just took it as a challenge. I just gotta work harder but that's what being a tank is to me.. yes we do have our own play style so of course I can't expect everyone to play like me but I do feel tanks should hold their pride! Which of course means holding hate ... yes of course I understand there are silly people out there who don't cooperate.. I've been there but I speak up. I am not going to stop trying to play my role as The Savior!
Thank you for reading, that is my 2cent!
Happy Gaming ✌

And here you're lucky you never ran into the tank who purposely turns the boss in Ala Mhigo around so it would cleave and kill you, lol.

On topic, I'm actually pretty happy with the tanks I normally encounter. Apart from the occasional wipe cause pulled too much they usually notice when they lose hate on one mob during aoe and get it right back.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

Nice strawman. If I'm doing a big pull and I miss a mob, obviously I'll run back and get it, how is that the DPS's fault? oh, but i'll tell you what IS the DPS's fault, if I'm doing a big pull or still in the process of pulling mobs and they go crazy on one enemy and rip aggro or when I'm still pulling and you get that (are, but it's hapened to me) BLM/SMN that uses their AOE burst whilst I'm still pulling causing a bunch of mobs to aggo on them, making me have to interupt he run, and run back, picking them up.

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And don't misunderstand me, while I'm a SMN loving AOEs, I hate that as well to see some go berserk the moment they see the targeting arrow of the tank going on the first mob, like some sort of bloodthirsty grizzly bear. I just react to the fact that, while the blame on the tank often isn't deserved, it sometimes is and being tank or heal doesn't give a special status regarding complaints.

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Originally Posted by Karshan

... I just react to the fact that, while the blame on the tank often isn't deserved, it sometimes is and being tank or heal doesn't give a special status regarding complaints.

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Where did I imply the contrary?

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Originally Posted by Ichirai

This is interesting to see posts from healers and tanks saying they voluntarily let their team members die... When I started playing this game as a tank when the DPS start to overdo it I just took it as a challenge. I just gotta work harder but that's what being a tank is to me.. yes we do have our own play style so of course I can't expect everyone to play like me but I do feel tanks should hold their pride! Which of course means holding hate ... yes of course I understand there are silly people out there who don't cooperate.. I've been there but I speak up. I am not going to stop trying to play my role as The Savior!
Thank you for reading, that is my 2cent!
Happy Gaming ✌

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When I started playing the rule was "You pull it, you tank it." Cause brds were jumping around pulling everything.

blame the current meta :P tank stances are so gimpy and not needed on bosses. sometimes you do lose aggro and ussually i just voke and do my aggro combo. doesnt always do the trick if they keep going balls deep and dont use their anti-aggro abilities. i dont tank as a main tho and i do use grit on trash ussually. i probably just suck. it only happens once in a blue moon tho. oh well

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Well, that usually happens when dps start attacking while the tank is still pulling. If you're a smn and you use tri-disaster->bane->painflare while the tank's still pulling mobs you deserve to die.

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If some dots and one attack is enough to pull off of you during the process of a chain pull then you're clearly not doing it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

If some dots and one attack is enough to pull off of you during the process of a chain pull then you're clearly not doing it correctly.

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It's not an in depth process. Run up to mobs, aoe threat skill, run to next pack. There is literally nothing else to it. If you are pulling threat mid pull, you are messing up the processe, not the tank.

So what is the purpose of the tank if aggro does get lost to dps regardless though?:
is this like a feels bad man coz the dps arent using their cooldowns and tanks don't want to stance dance again to recover or?:

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Originally Posted by Gravton

It's not an in depth process. Run up to mobs, aoe threat skill, run to next pack. There is literally nothing else to it. If you are pulling threat mid pull, you are messing up the processe, not the tank.

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You're right it's not an in depth process. Which is why if you're losing hate to some dots and a painflare, your aoe skill isn't hitting everything or the summoner wildly outgears you for some reason. Not that a good SMN will bane a pull that's still in the process of being pulled in the first place, but I digress.

I'm always diversion if the aggro bar starting to get ugly.
But even with diversion if the tank stayed in attack stance then its only the matter of times before healer or me get aggro again.
And if healer got aggro I'll help them because I don't believe any tank in attack stance can save anyone.

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Originally Posted by Venoshock

Where did I imply the contrary?

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You did not (not directly), it's just some people swarmed as if it was a rant topic about tanks losing hate. In which case I agree dds are not held responsible enough while hate tools exist.
But OP is not complaining about a tank losing hate, he is complaining about tanks who, when it happens, just do nothing to save the poor guy.

I heal as well so I know healing both the tank and the dd can be tricky, so here the thing to do is voke. And sometimes when I have a mob on me (don't blame the tank, with AOE it happens) I run to the tank and I'll be damned, he lets him on me until it dies (Or until I do). Fortunately I have a bursting class so when it happens I go burst mode, but I could have used that burst on the pack (or could I not ? Might have gained hate from more).

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Originally Posted by Karshan

But OP is not complaining about a tank losing hate, he is complaining about tanks who, when it happens, just do nothing to save the poor guy.

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The OP is complaining about tanks who lose hate to a DPS, because the DPS didin't use their cooldowns. That's the dps's fault. It's up to the tank whther they want to voke back, or let the DPS get what they deserve (Personally I'd chose the latter and then laugh). The DPS can't complain, which is what the OP is doing here. I'm not being considerate to some brainless DPS if they didn't consider me when it literally takes no effort. It's an oGCD ffs. Like....why aren't they using it? maybe I should pull big and not use any CDs, die then come to the forums and bitch that the healers are letting me die whilst being totally unaware of how stupid I'd look.

In his initial post (didn't bother if he posted anything in the other pages) he says the tank call for "diversion" but he doesn't say he didn't use it. He just says :
Tank pull boss (btw I only notice now he was talking about boss, not mobs)
Tank loses hate
DPS gets hit
Tank remains in DPS stance and makes apparently no voke or so
DPS dies.

My reaction as a DPS would simply be to :
- be careful if I start with a burst, can happen in dungeon, happens less in raid
- If enmity gained, try and stop attacking for a while just to let him gain enmity back, and pray the healer sees right away I'm the one getting hit for now
Tank has nothing to apologize for, but if his reaction simply is autotrad "diversion" (I used it) while in DPS stance doing RA like combos, boy I'm not gonna go easy on him and remind him, by my playstyle, he might need his tank stance, maybe only 10 seconds for the pull ;)

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.
The flip side of this is that the tank is absolutely at fault for capping the group dps and should readjust their play accordingly.

The one exception here is if you're a healer doing no overhealing, used enmity control and are still grabbing aggro. Then that's on the tank.

If the tank did that after using lucid and diversion they would have no right to complain if everything dies slowly afterwards.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.
The flip side of this is that the tank is absolutely at fault for capping the group dps and should readjust their play accordingly.

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I will strongly disagree with all the underlined sections. As a DPS, yes, I need to watch my agro generation, and appropriately use my Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/etc, BUT, it is also on the tank to be aware of what everyone's agro meter is at so that they can use their agro combo if needed, even in DPS stance. I keep a constant eye on that when I tank, so that my DPS do NOT have to stop DPSing, and can continue to bust out their entire combo as quickly as they can. I have rarely lost agro, even from the initial burst on a boss.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I will strongly disagree with all the underlined sections. As a DPS, yes, I need to watch my agro generation, and appropriately use my Diversion/Lucid Dreaming/etc, BUT, it is also on the tank to be aware of what everyone's agro meter is at so that they can use their agro combo if needed, even in DPS stance. I keep a constant eye on that when I tank, so that my DPS do NOT have to stop DPSing, and can continue to bust out their entire combo as quickly as they can. I have rarely lost agro, even from the initial burst on a boss.

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I don't see how that's a rebuttal of what I said. You're essentially saying that as a tank you do your best not to cap the group DPS because of enmity issues. We're agreeing.

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Originally Posted by Hookla

If I notice a dps is pulling aggro or if someone runs off to pull more i just follow/aggro what they pull. Theres no reason to be a dick and just let them die, be a team player and pick it up.

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It's a dick move to pull for the tank in the first place be a team member and follow the tanks lead.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks). As a dps you're the only person who can control your enmity. If you're close to getting aggro and used all your enmity cooldowns, then stop dpsing.
The flip side of this is that the tank is absolutely at fault for capping the group dps and should readjust their play accordingly.

The one exception here is if you're a healer doing no overhealing, used enmity control and are still grabbing aggro. Then that's on the tank.

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Pulling in DPS stance = not doing everything in his power to keep enmity, so If I did (lucid + diversion) sorry but it's on him. I have a job to do and a rotation to maintain, the jobs are designed to be ok if things are done correctly. He wanna go permanent DPS stance ? Fine by me, might he be well stuffed and/or well skilled, otherwise refrain.

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

It's a dick move to pull for the tank in the first place be a team member and follow the tanks lead.

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That however, I agree with. Clearly the DPS/heal is at fault here, the tank knows his limits, they don't, so they are NOT in charge of pulling.
They just should be able to start their rotation right away once the pack / boss is settled.