Shouldn't Virus be a healer debuff again?

The main problem by asking this is something I noticed in general.
Of course there are some good players arounds, melee or casters who used these spells. But, mostly, it isn't. Of course, I guess there also are DPS who like being able to participate to mitigation. BUT...

This is mostly never done. Unless you run content with people you know and have talked about it, these abilites are completely forgotten.

It is understandable in some way. The first members in the party who care about everyone's life and mitigation of aoe damages are healers. DPS too, but far less than them cause it's not the primary fonction of their job. And because of that, a lot/too many dps seems to completely forget they have this utility.

And this is the sad part of it. As a healer, you knew you had this before, you had the control of Virus, and when you see you can't do it anymore but those you can don't, it's frustrating.

So yes, of course, you can can heal without a prob almost everything (almost I say cause you feel the difference if you have no mitigation on O4S). But still, Virus still exists and is completely forgotten.

Shouldn't healer get this skill back, even a weaker version of it since they are the first concerned about incoming damages? (Virus was super strong, it was 15%, and right now with the current system, it would be overpowered, so that's why I'm saying a weaker version of it. Ast had Disable at 10% and worked with Virus).

Without removing it from dps of course.
I'm not only talking about savage content however, but any type of 8 man trial or more.

Well you know, Virus was an Arcanist skill, and Arcanist is a DPS. It technically never was a "healer" skill.

Healers just were able to use it due to SCH being able to use it, which was only because of their ACN heritage.

Like the above reason, it stemmed from a DPS base class. Only SCH had the good version (of the healers).

Most content that a majority of players run don't need these skills at all. You'll only find them as make-or-break in savage- not even extreme primals really need their use (and the last primal that arguably needed it was Thordan's Reign).

AST's Disable was gutted as ability bloat and is now relegated to their PVP debuff. Pre-Stormblood Disable was a joke, post-Stormblood Disable saves lives.

I don't really see how giving it (back) to specifically healers benefits parties more than it does having a DPS caster handle it. It was never a necessary skill in anything but bleeding edge content, anyway, and if you're on that level, you'd probably be discussing your strategy on when to use it with your party.

I never really liked Virus as a "mitigation" tool, since healers mitigate almost entirely by buffing/shielding party members, so Virus, at first glance, felt like it was supposed to fit in with the ACN DOTs, despite not technically being one. It's just an awkward skill. Besides, I think the combination of Chain Strategem and Excog comfortably replace and outpace anything Virus offered to the table.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Well you know, Virus was an Arcanist skill, and Arcanist is a DPS. It technically never was a "healer" skill.

Healers just were able to use it due to SCH being able to use it, which was only because of their ACN heritage.

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Arcanist has healer skills especially for Scholar and dps skills especially for Summoner. Arcanist wasn't designed to only become a Summoner, wich also means that Scholar wasn't an afterthought. I would say DDs were able to use it because of Scholar ^^

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Originally Posted by Tint

Arcanist has healer skills especially for Scholar and dps skills especially for Summoner.

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One healing skill, and that doesn't change that ACN is a DPS class and virus was an ACN skill.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

One healing skill, and that doesn't change that ACN is a DPS class and virus was an ACN skill.

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actually ACN had a heal, a raise, and virus.

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Originally Posted by Tint

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Technically, yes, but I feel SE taking it away from healers while simultaneously lowering the utility of SMN's few "healer skills" (...sustain...) indicates it was intended for Virus to be a DPS skill from the start.

If anything, if Virus was more popularly used by healers, then this is another instance to how jacked up the SCH/SMN split is and the weird things that design decision did to the balancing of both jobs.

Problem with giving it to healers again is that they already have too many role skill that are considered mandatory as it is. It would get used even less cause healers just can't fit it in their bar anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Problem with giving it to healers again is that they already have too many role skill that are considered mandatory as it is. It would get used even less cause healers just can't fit it in their bar anymore.

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Oh Jesus, this too, so much. We're already seeing healers building macros to swap their skills around between pulls. If it's suddenly required for healers to have Virus, what do we give up? Protect? Swiftcast??

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Oh Jesus, this too, so much. We're already seeing healers building macros to swap their skills around between pulls. If it's suddenly required for healers to have Virus, what do we give up? Protect? Swiftcast??

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Protect and Esuna should just be part of AST/WHM/SCH job skills. Every healer has those two skills on their hotbar, I reckon it would be better to make remove those skills from the Role Skills.

One could also say that Protect is a skill that every group needs, so why not make it a passive trait for healers? When someone joins a group with a WHM/SCH/AST, they too get this passive trait.

With all changements, I not see how I could we use it if they add it back :/

My healers jobs all are full. So there is not place available :/

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Protect and Esuna should just be part of AST/WHM/SCH job skills. Every healer has those two skills on their hotbar, I reckon it would be better to make remove those skills from the Role Skills.

One could also say that Protect is a skill that every group needs, so why not make it a passive trait for healers? When someone joins a group with a WHM/SCH/AST, they too get this passive trait.

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What's messed up is Protect was supposed to be cut in SB as ability bloat, but knew players would get loud without it, despite being able to simply tweak baddies in new content to work under the idea we lack that little buff. We really never require the skill, but since it's there and DOES help, every healer has it and everyone expects to play with it up!

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

What's messed up is Protect was supposed to be cut in SB as ability bloat, but knew players would get loud without it, despite being able to simply tweak baddies in new content to work under the idea we lack that little buff. We really never require the skill, but since it's there and DOES help, every healer has it and everyone expects to play with it up!

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the real problem is... i play tank. when i don't get a protect at the start of an instance, i don't know what to do. when i just run off without it the healer will probably get mad, because he wanted to cast it. i don't want to wait forever for a buff i maybe will never get. and i don't want to ask the healer every single time if he wants to use protect or not: i mean i don't care. it's a buff to make his life easier, not mine...

To be honest, I never liked the other healers being able to access it originally to begin with. Aside from SCH/SMN because of ACN heritage and the trait bonus, Virus was always better suited as a DPS action.

More of a rant but it used to annoy me to no end when I'd know a big attack was coming from the boss and would ready Virus (as SMN) but then a WHM throws it out of nowhere, not only without the trait bonus but also blocking me out for using it again on the target for a period of time.

Well anyway, it's all moot since Virus got broke in to two versions and split between the DPS jobs...

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Originally Posted by Tint

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That's fine,and I understand that you don't want to rude but are aware that it's an odd situation but that's not what we're saying. Protect is technically unnecessary, but since it's in our kits and has utility that we can use, and we learn it very early on, it ends up being the thing we learn after "this button hurts baddies" and "this button heals goodies." But, the role system just doesn't work well on healers.

If Virus were given to healers as a -required- skill, Protect would likely be the one to go despite how jarring that idea is. The only option is Esuna which is FAR more dangerous to lose in certain instances. Or, that final personal slot that does vary healer by healer; Largesse, Cleric Stance, or Eye for an Eye.

But look. Healers have 5 slots for role skills, and only ONE is free for us to slap what we want in there to operate at an expected minimum.

Protect, Swiftcast, Lucid Dreaming, Esuna. No healer wants to lose these 4 skills, and I don't think a tank or DPS would be in the right to try to force their healer to. Worth mentioning the vast majority of us take Largesse in that last slot as it's our heal potency buff, and was a vital tool to WHM's original kit. SCH and AST kept their versions of this skill, Rouse and Lightspeed, so technically, a WHM doesn't have any free role slots.

This is actually an issue with the role system healers have been salty about since SB. It's pretty useless to have so many role skills when we all REQUIRE the same ones!

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

This is actually an issue with the role system healers have been salty about since SB. It's pretty useless to have so many role skills when we all REQUIRE the same ones!

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it's not that different for tanks ^^ and my opinion is that Darkside is in a similar spot like Protect (activate it once and then remove it from your hotbar), but at least i don't have to use a role action slot for it >.>

however, i wanted to further point out that even if you WANT to remove protect from your cross-action slots, you simply can't because everyone will expect you to cast it at the start of an instance and you have to explain yourself everytime single time for not using it.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

Protect and Esuna should just be part of AST/WHM/SCH job skills. Every healer has those two skills on their hotbar, I reckon it would be better to make remove those skills from the Role Skills.

One could also say that Protect is a skill that every group needs, so why not make it a passive trait for healers? When someone joins a group with a WHM/SCH/AST, they too get this passive trait.

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I'm not sure why they cut Leeches and Exalted Detriment to consolidate everything under Esuna. The result was just another mandatory healer job action.

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Oh Jesus, this too, so much. We're already seeing healers building macros to swap their skills around between pulls. If it's suddenly required for healers to have Virus, what do we give up? Protect? Swiftcast??

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IMO Virus was practically useless outside of savage/"world 1st!" content anyway. No fights outside of those produce tank busters that hit so hard that you needed Virus just to reasonably survive, which is really about the only time such an ability proved particularly useful.

With the megapulling mentality usually adopted in typical 4-man content, how is a 10% reduction on damage on a single mob for 10 seconds going to help in any significant way?

My question isn't to know to who it suits the most.

But the fact that being in DPS role action system right now and that most of them don't use it.

Fynlar : I'm not talking about 4-man content if you read all my post
I'm talking about 8-man content.
And no, this isn't useless. Mitigation is never useless. And no you don't need to do savage race to be efficient et want to use everyskill you have.
Cause if we go further in that opinion, every kind of mitigation skill in this game would useless : reprisal, troubadour...
Back in HW, some classes like War hard a damages reducer on his rotation (-10%), same for monk & Dk (for magic damages), paladin (physical damages).
Today, it has been removed, and the only to mitigate is using Reprisal, Addle, Feint and such.
If we have those, it isn't to just sit on our toolbar for nothing.

If you're not a healer, you probably never had the occasion to watch en encounter and its proper damage and how to handle it.
Or, people were just simply mitigating it without you noticing it and you just thought "lol, it doesn't hurt"
Also, maybe you never went on Extreme trials with pretty bad gears because it's totally new (aren't the best example since they were quite easy, even if their aoe hurt at the beginning)
If you think damages in this game are just healers doing the job on their own, you had it all wrong. This is about teamwork and everyclass has thing to help eachother.

So now please. This thread is an open debate indeed, but don't dare commenting if you don't know what you're talking about.
Thank you.

Nah, I'm used to having Stoneskin or Hallowed Ground/Holmgang/Living Dead in those nightmare tankbuster scenarios in which Virus could be a third heavy mitigation option.

Excognition exists now to soften blows of that ferocity, too, on top of a Galvanize. Although, admittedly you need to survive the tank buster for that to work. I guess Divine Benison to a certain extent, too. I guess ASTs just pray for a Bole and Noct Sheild.


Think of it this way; if Virus is that good, and Healers are needed with or without it (completely setting the role skill crunch factor aside), wouldn't giving Virus to casters improve their overall raid utility and encourage more players to handle those jobs and invite them into statics?

I mean, now it seems like the argument is less, "Why can't healers still use Virus?" and instead, "Why aren't casters taking advantage of Virus?"

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And no, this isn't useless. Mitigation is never useless. And no you don't need to do savage race to be efficient et want to use everyskill you have.

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The whole point of Virus is to take an unsurvivable attack and make it into something survivable. If it's not doing that, it's pointless to have around as a skill in favor of other things, and it was barely even worth using pre-4.0 too. I am not a raider, and I pretty much always forgot it was there because it was too insignificant to matter.

I say it again, but you don't need to be an active raider to use what's on your toolkit.
No, Virus and every type of mitigation isn't only use to unsurvivable attacks.
Unless you're doing content unsync, as long as you can mitigate by pressing a single button,it's better doing it, and i'm not talking about Virus only here.
Everyone doing all what they can to make runs smoother is much appreciated.

If we have those things on our hotbars, on the cross role system and stuff, better to be used.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I'm talking about 8-man content.
And no, this isn't useless. Mitigation is never useless. And no you don't need to do savage race to be efficient et want to use everyskill you have.
Cause if we go further in that opinion, every kind of mitigation skill in this game would useless : reprisal, troubadour...

Or, people were just simply mitigating it without you noticing it and you just thought "lol, it doesn't hurt"
Also, maybe you never went on Extreme trials with pretty bad gears because it's totally new (aren't the best example since they were quite easy, even if their aoe hurt at the beginning)
If you think damages in this game are just healers doing the job on their own, you had it all wrong.

So now please. This thread is an open debate indeed, but don't dare commenting if you don't know what you're talking about.

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The more you stack mitigation, the less of an effect it has overall. Outside of savage, using mitigation outside of generic healer shields and tank cooldowns is more than enough even at minimum required level. Anything else is a bonus, and if it's actually needed, things had already started to go south before using said mitigation (like healers sleeping on the job or forgetting some raid-wide AoE is about to happen and non-tanks are sitting at half HP; seen this a lot in Sophia, as well as Susano and Lakshmi).

The only time I've ever uttered anything close to "lol it doesn't hurt" is a scholar popping a critlo and spreading it. Then it's a "lol wut damage?" ('cause most fights are designed for having 20k+ HP mitigation on the raid).

Hypothetically, if you could use something like Feint and not need a tank mitigation, using both means one is wasted.

Basically, outside of savage raids, you only need these things to compensate for mistakes.

Also, do you even know there was damage you simply could not mitigate? Anything that came up as "darkness damage" could not be mitigated by skills like Virus, but shields and Disable did work. While I have not gone back and looked to see if there has been any more of this type of damage in Stormblood, this damage would be immune to stat reduction mitigation.

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Everyone doing all what they can to make runs smoother is much appreciated.

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For the overwhelming majority of non-raid content (and even in most raid content), healers accomplish this by adding in nukes, not Virus.

Mitigation on a single enemy is just very rarely useful in this game. Dungeons get mass pulled and bosses are typically no threat as long as your healer isn't asleep. A number of bosses can even be soloed by a tank without any other support.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

For the overwhelming majority of non-raid content (and even in most raid content), healers accomplish this by adding in nukes, not Virus.

Mitigation on a single enemy is just very rarely useful in this game. Dungeons get mass pulled and bosses are typically no threat as long as your healer isn't asleep. A number of bosses can even be soloed by a tank without any other support.

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In before they say they aren't talking about 4 man content, and thus dungeons, I would like to interject and point out to OP that for a large portion of the playerbase, their majority of time is spent in said 4 man content, leading to just a... less than useful skill for them. Possibly why the game is mostly balanced around savage raiding, and like a friend has said, if you aren't savage raiding, you aren't really playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Nah, I'm used to having Stoneskin

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:(

I wouldn't mind getting Virus or something like it on WHM, for those times where nobody needs healing to let me DPS a tiny bit more aggressively. Basically, for something extra to do, since the toolkit is so ludicrously simple now aside from juggling resources and Benison isn't always up or easily made available in advance of damage if you're unlucky (or make a mistake). Don't really need it on AST/SCH as my bars are full enough now, though I would 100% support changes to Esuna/Protect for all healers to give us more opportunities for interesting play.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

like a friend has said, if you aren't savage raiding, you aren't really playing the game.

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Like the majority of people playing the game who aren't really playing the game, I find there are things we can do for extra challenge that aren't necessarily running the latest Savage raids, and that's rather rude (even if I do understand what you're saying, in that pushing the very edge of your throughput isn't needed for the easy content we do every day). For example, my idea of fun is to grab some friends and do content at minimum ilv sync with the bare minimum of players, which can be eye-wateringly rough to solo heal sometimes, especially when you have to think of creative solutions to mechanical problems which wouldn't ever exist if you had the correct number of people. Is it as hard as current Savage raiding? Probably not, it's certainly not going to win me any respect. Is it hard, and do I need to know every skill inside and out? Personally, I think so, and I'd really appreciate having more options to allow us to mess around even more, since we find pushing ourselves as a small team rather fun. Since it's a game. And there's barely any lowman hard content at all unless we create it ourselves.

We have plenty of situational stuff already (Fluid Aura, Repose) and it's not as though WHM is struggling with an excess of buttons to press these days, especially in advance of incoming damage, so I'd personally rather like a few more options to make the gameplay feel more involved. Stone is great and all, but I did originally pick WHM to heal and a few interesting alternatives in between the relentless Stone spam would help me feel engaged.

I miss my AST having Disable :'(

It was pretty

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Originally Posted by TristanBlane

I miss my AST having Disable :'(

It was pretty

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It is in PVP. It's very useful there, being a 25% decrease in your opponent's attack power for a few seconds.

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Originally Posted by Serilda

Like the majority of people playing the game who aren't really playing the game, I find there are things we can do for extra challenge that aren't necessarily running the latest Savage raids, and that's rather rude (even if I do understand what you're saying, in that pushing the very edge of your throughput isn't needed for the easy content we do every day).

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Originally Posted by A Friend

By not playing the game, I mean playing the game at a level where their opinions about mechanics and balance are uninformed. You can pick up any game and mash buttons, but that doesn't mean your opinion on it is valid.

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