Some adjustments to the loot system?

Do you think there should be some adjustments to the Loot System for ffxiv, even if minor? Example: If someone rolls a 99 Need, that person automatically gets it, whether or not everyone rolled (or greed if using the greed only/lootmaster rules). Asking this mostly because some people tend to wait on the loot drops until the countdown is nearly over, expecting everyone to give up and leave so they an get it (which usually doesn't work a lot, at least not on my pov).

Yea or something like that. If they think I'm gonna leave if they don't roll early they're wrong

Or reduce the amount of time loot can stay up. I feel that 5 minutes is way too long. Something closer to 2 minutes is better.

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Originally Posted by Mocita

Or reduce the amount of time loot can stay up. I feel that 5 minutes is way too long. Something closer to 2 minutes is better.

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I disagree. While of course once in a while you will meet a troll who make you wait on purpose, I feel 5 minutes is a good trade-off. It gives a chance for someone who lagged out, to reconnect, pass a potential login queue and be back to roll on the loot.

However what I would like to see implemented is to be able to easily see who has not rolled on an item yet. For example by selecting a loot item, it would display a popup list similar to a Ready Check.
So when noticing a played purposely idling and not rolling, he can be added to the blacklist.

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Originally Posted by EorzeaHero69

....If someone rolls a 99 Need, that person automatically gets it, whether or not everyone rolled (or greed if using the greed only/lootmaster rules). Asking this mostly because some people tend to wait on the loot drops until the countdown is nearly over....

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More than one player can roll 99 on the same item. It happened to me few days ago. I did not know it was possible. And it was a NEED roll.
I just had rolled 99 and I was happy to get the loot, then I noticed the loot being given to another player (O.O).
So I scrolled back the rolling log and indeed that player had also rolled 99 on the same item.
I don't know how the game then chose who to give the item too. Maybe first who rolled? Alphabetical Order? Bonus Hidden roll? Hidden character ID order?....

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

More than one player can roll 99 on the same item. It happened to me few days ago.

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Sorry, but no they can't. It's always more advantageous to roll earlier because of the chance of getting the higher numbers first so no one else can.

Were you perhaps in Omega and multiple of the same loot was dropped so you were actually rolling on different pieces? (or I appreciate what you said, but maybe you did just roll greed by mistake)

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

More than one player can roll 99 on the same item. It happened to me few days ago.

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Not possible. Maybe you hit greed when you thought you hit need.

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Originally Posted by Mocita

Or reduce the amount of time loot can stay up. I feel that 5 minutes is way too long. Something closer to 2 minutes is better.

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No, the time is fine. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally sucks when you get locked out from a disconnect and raid loot, you know, that weekly loot lock-out, is running down. FFXIV really needs a forced log-off; I've seen far too much hard earned savage loot drop to the ground or to the wrong person because of an ill-timed disconnect. You really feel those seconds counting down in those situations.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

However what I would like to see implemented is to be able to easily see who has not rolled on an item yet. For example by selecting a loot item, it would display a popup list similar to a Ready Check.
So when noticing a played purposely idling and not rolling, he can be added to the blacklist.

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^ Right here.

I kinda recall there were cases when two people could both roll 99 and the system would decide who gets it. Am I mistaken? I got this impression from a long time ago, probably in 2.x.

What I would love to see at least is anyone leaving the duty normally (i.e. not disconnects or log outs) before loot is distributed automatically forfeit all rolled and unrolled loot.

I would like to see Savage loot restrictions changed. It sucks I cannot help friends or even learning parties after my static clears without screwing them out of a chest. Yes, I know the system exists to limit sales, but people do those anyway. And quite frankly, who cares? I'd argue the negatives outweigh the positives because few people level two or three characters for end game content. A better compromise, in my opinion, is for the chest restriction to apply only if 3+ people have cleared already.

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Sorry, but no they can't. It's always more advantageous to roll earlier because of the chance of getting the higher numbers first so no one else can.

Were you perhaps in Omega and multiple of the same loot was dropped so you were actually rolling on different pieces? (or I appreciate what you said, but maybe you did just roll greed by mistake)

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It's possible, but sadly I don't have any history screenshot or log to look at, so I will take you word for it :)


As for being better to roll first, that has no incidence on your chance to get the best roll.

For example if you consider the chance to roll a X for a light party with the blind roll system used by the game, this is how it goes:

First player has 1/99 to roll X
Second player: 98/99 (the chance the previous player has not rolled X) x 1/98 (possible rolls left) = 1/99
Third player has 97/99 x 1/97 = 1/99
Foruth player has 96/99 x 1/96 = 1/99

So regardless of the order of vote, each player has 1/99 chance to roll X (X being any number including 99).

Said otherwise without numbers, rolling first gives you the first chance to roll 99, but at the same time it increases the chance for other player to roll 99 if you did not. The effect cancels each other chance wise.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

I kinda recall there were cases when two people could both roll 99 and the system would decide who gets it. Am I mistaken? I got this impression from a long time ago, probably in 2.x.

What I would love to see at least is anyone leaving the duty normally (i.e. not disconnects or log outs) before loot is distributed automatically forfeit all rolled and unrolled loot.

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You are mistaken. On the same loot, once a number is rolled, that number is removed from the available numbers that can be generated. Different items, the same roll can happen, obviously.

The system already does this? If people don't roll, or roll, but then leave, they are counted as "pass." This is especially notice-able doing unsynced dungeon runs for minions and mats, where it's easy to run through the entire dungeon before the first loot's timer hits 0. The last person to leave automatically gets all of the loot if no one has rolled, even if they haven't rolled.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

No, the time is fine. Reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally sucks when you get locked out from a disconnect and raid loot, you know, that weekly loot lock-out, is running down. FFXIV really needs a forced log-off; I've seen far too much hard earned savage loot drop to the ground or to the wrong person because of an ill-timed disconnect. You really feel those seconds counting down in those situations.

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You can attempt a force a logoff if you change data centers after getting d/c'd. It works 90% of the time since somehow your character gets "moved" and forces the d/c.

I was saved in savage because of lootmaster before. I got d/c'd like before the kill literally at 1%. My raid leader was able to still "give" me the item, so it went in my inventory and when i logged back in it was there.

I would love to see it show who hasn't rolled yet. FFXI had this over a decade ago.

I also have a silly problem where I often run dungeons with friends and most loot gets wasted, for example, if our usual PLD is on a different job and a PLD item he already has drops which nobody else needs, he passes on it and everyone else passes too, terrified of greeding because he might want it. It would, of course, be solved by people simply talking but everyone is apparently shy and I'm the only one who gets bothered by it. I wish there was something between greed and pass for people who don't especially want things at all but really hate seeing them drop to the floor. Or if roll types were public in premade parties. Even as an option.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

However what I would like to see implemented is to be able to easily see who has not rolled on an item yet. For example by selecting a loot item, it would display a popup list similar to a Ready Check.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

^ Right here.

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Isn't there a chat setting that shows that? I know it shows what people actually roll once that is finished, but I'm pretty sure there is a setting that shows "Player X has rolled on Y item" without the number that they rolled.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Isn't there a chat setting that shows that? I know it shows what people actually roll once that is finished, but I'm pretty sure there is a setting that shows "Player X has rolled on Y item" without the number that they rolled.

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The problem with that though, especially in mostly 24-man raids, is that people are rolling so fast, since certain items like minions, crafting materials, and sometimes TT cards are rolled by 24 people, it's hard to see who rolled and who didn't.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

More than one player can roll 99 on the same item. It happened to me few days ago. I did not know it was possible. And it was a NEED roll.
I just had rolled 99 and I was happy to get the loot, then I noticed the loot being given to another player (O.O).
So I scrolled back the rolling log and indeed that player had also rolled 99 on the same item.
I don\\'t know how the game then chose who to give the item too. Maybe first who rolled? Alphabetical Order? Bonus Hidden roll? Hidden character ID order?....

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There\\'s a tie breaker roll. So any people who til the same winning number all roll again. So in that second roll you might have got 40. And the other guy 46 or something.

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Sorry, but no they can\\'t. It\\'s always more advantageous to roll earlier because of the chance of getting the higher numbers first so no one else can.

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Yes they can. This came up ages ago labryth of the ancients era. and the devs said it\\'s a simple random number roll. And in the event of a tie. A rerolls is made.

To code the system to exclude numbers that someone else has already rolled would be an incredibly complicated thing to do. Especially factoring in latency and server load stuff

Anyone saying two people can roll need the same number needs to show some evidence because it's do far quite evident than its not possible.

You better provide proof, because your roll doesn't change once you click it. If you roll 98, that number is taken out of the loot roll. There isn't a re-roll where a new number shows up.

There was a time where you couldn't tell if someone rolled at-all, having that now in the chat text means you can just read who is being the nuisance by not rolling. Sure it doesn't say what they rolled until all rolls, but it at-least shows they taken action and are not the douche holding everyone up.

In the old ARR days you just call out people what their roll was, and the last person who wouldn't speak up would obviously roll.

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Originally Posted by Mocita

Or reduce the amount of time loot can stay up. I feel that 5 minutes is way too long. Something closer to 2 minutes is better.

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This, if people are concerned about not having enough time to roll. They could just add an alert if the timer is close to running out.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Anyone saying two people can roll need the same number needs to show some evidence because it's do far quite evident than its not possible.

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A) Horribly complicated algorithm to create an entirely new version of how rolls take place after each player (who may be trying to roll at the same time, so even defining "after each" would eliminate normal threading).

B) Trivially simple random number generator roll, then an extra tie-breaker decision if necessary. And which apparently the devs themselves have said they use.

I think you're wrong on where the burden of proof would lie. Assume the one that actually makes sense over the one that doesn't unless there's clear proof to the contrary. And what proof does anyone have? That only a few people have noticed it happening? With 100 possibilities, there usually wouldn't be a tie anyway. (Ok, maybe a bit more often for 24 man content, but there how often do people actually check all 24 rolls for duplicates?)

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Originally Posted by technole

You can attempt a force a logoff if you change data centers after getting d/c'd. It works 90% of the time since somehow your character gets "moved" and forces the d/c.

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Have tried that, along with friends. Has never once worked, much to our dismay. Might be because of using a tunnel service (which we switch off when a DC happens), but yeah, switching datacenters has never worked.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

However what I would like to see implemented is to be able to easily see who has not rolled on an item yet.

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SE won't do that because they are afraid of "witch hunting" and will appeal to the easily offended. So many systems could be improved with a system like the one you propose (namely the infamous "A member of your party cannot enter this duty") and I wish SE would see that the benefits far outweigh the potential for offence (if there even is any).

Get rid of rolls completely. No more RNG involved in loot.
Use a token system. Defeat X boss, get two tokens toward gear for the job you are currently playing, or one token for a different job (your choice).
Cash them in at a vendor. 4? 10? 20? The amount is moot. It should be just enough to encourage players to complete the content each week without making it too grindy.

In the past, I've had to do normal so many times, I capped tomestones just on that without ever getting the lot on the items I need.
The flip side was getting 4 pieces of fending gear in a single run of a 24-man as bard (which only ever happened once).

But it's supposed to average out, right? That's not the issue. Most people only have a limited amount of play time each week (work, school, RL commitments). The unreliability of the time investment is just frustrating and serves no purpose other than to reward the people who get lucky, or who have the time to grind until they get their loot.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

Get rid of rolls completely. No more RNG involved in loot.
Use a token system. Defeat X boss, get two tokens toward gear for the job you are currently playing, or one token for a different job (your choice).
Cash them in at a vendor. 4? 10? 20? The amount is moot. It should be just enough to encourage players to complete the content each week without making it too grindy.

In the past, I've had to do normal so many times, I capped tomestones just on that without ever getting the lot on the items I need.
The flip side was getting 4 pieces of fending gear in a single run of a 24-man as bard (which only ever happened once).

But it's supposed to average out, right? That's not the issue. Most people only have a limited amount of play time each week (work, school, RL commitments). The unreliability of the time investment is just frustrating and serves no purpose other than to reward the people who get lucky, or who have the time to grind until they get their loot.

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Hard pass, there's too many damn tokens as it is, the last thing I want is having to juggle another set for every freaking dungeon, raid, treasure map and trial.

The only adjustment they should make is putting 2 weapons instead of 1 in the chests. The further we go, the less chance your weapon will have to loot. 2 job more for 5.0 and you will have 1/17 chances to loot your weapon.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

I think you're wrong on where the burden of proof would lie. Assume the one that actually makes sense over the one that doesn't unless there's clear proof to the contrary. And what proof does anyone have? That only a few people have noticed it happening? With 100 possibilities, there usually wouldn't be a tie anyway. (Ok, maybe a bit more often for 24 man content, but there how often do people actually check all 24 rolls for duplicates?)

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Tie numbers, if possible, would be incredibly common. They would be roughly happening in a quarter to a third of four-man dungeons (assuming everybody rolls).

Math, for those who'd care:
Chance of no ties in four rolls for a single item: 99/99 * 98/99 * 97/99 * 96/99 = 94.05%
Six items per dungeon (two per boss): 94.05% ^ 6 = 69.21%.

This is for no ties, so the chance of seeing at least one tie in a single dungeon run would be a little over 30%.

With 8 people rolling: 99/99 * 98/99 * 97/99 * 96/99 * 95/99 * 94/99 * 93/99 * 92/99 = 74.8%.
You'd see it a quarter of the time in eight-man raids, as well.

A tie roll would practically be guaranteed in a 24-man run.

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Originally Posted by Pells

Tie numbers, if possible, would be incredibly common. They would be roughly happening in a quarter to a third of four-man dungeons (assuming everybody rolls).

Math, for those who'd care:
Chance of no ties in four rolls for a single item: 99/99 * 98/99 * 97/99 * 96/99 = 94.05%
Six items per dungeon (two per boss): 94.05% ^ 6 = 69.21%.

This is for no ties, so the chance of seeing at least one tie in a single dungeon run would be a little over 30%.

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That's wrong for 2 reasons. Firstly you're multiplying when you should be adding. and second it assumes that everyone can roll on every drop. if an aiming piece drops for example at best 2 out the 4 people in that dungeon are going to be able to need roll. the likely hood of those 2 people rolling the same number is 1.011% Also the rolls aren't cumulative every roll is independent.. so the likely hood does not increase as you see more loot.

If it was something all 4 people could roll on the likely good of a double roll would be 3.033%

I think your off by a factor of 10. Because 30% is way to high. 3/99 is 3.033% and every roll is independent of the last not a cumulative system.

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Originally Posted by Pells

With 8 people rolling: 99/99 * 98/99 * 97/99 * 96/99 * 95/99 * 94/99 * 93/99 * 92/99 = 74.8%.
You'd see it a quarter of the time in eight-man raids, as well.

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Again wrong. you're multiplying again. If all 8 people rolled the likely hood of seeing any double roll would be 7.077%.

Mathmatically expressed the % chance of any double roll is ((N-1)/99)*100 (where N is the number of players rolling)

Logically this means the 8th person has a 7/99 chance to roll any number someone already has. and a 92/99 chance of rolling a unique number.. so the chance of seeing a duplicate roll from 8 people is 7.077%

each additional roll increases the likehood of any double by an additive amount not a mulplicative one. if a 9th person rolled the likely hood of a double would rise by 1.011% to 8.088%. if a 10th person rolled another 1.011% to 9.099% and so on.

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Originally Posted by Pells

A tie roll would practically be guaranteed in a 24-man run.

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in 24 man content the likely hood of seeing any double roll is at best 23/99 (23.23%.). factor in the likely hood of that tie roll being the top roll of the 23 numbers rolled (1/23 chance. 4.3%)
so you have at best a 23% chance of seeing any double roll. and within that 23% you have a 4.3% chance of it being the top number. and seeing a tie break. mathematically this basically adds back up to 1.011%

Factor in the drop rates of items that all 24 people can roll on like minions. And the likelihood of seeing double rolls falls drastically because most runs you won't see the drop so there can't be any rolls on it at all. If the minon has a 10% drop rate for example the likelihood of seeing a double roll on it is effectively 2.3%

Even if 2 people roll a 98 it doesn't matter because if one rolls a 99 you wont see a tie breaker. So if a double roll did happen there's typically then a 95.7% chance it wouldn't result in a tie breaker.. if 2 people rolled a 17 for example chances are no one would even notice it unless those 2 people happened to say omg only a 17 in alliance chat or something.

its also in part down to how people read.. if you were in a race and you're time was 1:48.7. if you look at someone elses time and see 2 minutes something you stop reading because you've already won. if you see 1 minute x you continue reading. 1:5x.x something again you stop reading you've already won.
if you see 1 minute 4x you continue reading 1 minute 49. woooooo i won. 1:47 fk i lost...

loot rolls are the same. if you've got 85 then all you typically do is glance at other rolls 70something 60 something 50something. beaten all of them
80 something you look at that one. 81 phewwwww. 87 fkkkkk..
90 something Dam it!! even if that's not the highest roll you tend to stop looking at the rest once you see you've lost
this is generally why people don't notice double rolls. people only read as much as they need to.

you could go in to a math class room and put 3.1455378008 on a black board and how many people would say it's pi. because they stopped reading at 3.14 and didn't notice the grade school upside down calculator boobless 55378008 on the end..

I'm happy how it is, I did 120 T11 runs for an aiming wrist band. Never had to do that since

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

I think you're wrong on where the burden of proof would lie. Assume the one that actually makes sense over the one that doesn't unless there's clear proof to the contrary. And what proof does anyone have? That only a few people have noticed it happening? With 100 possibilities, there usually wouldn't be a tie anyway. (Ok, maybe a bit more often for 24 man content, but there how often do people actually check all 24 rolls for duplicates?)

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I can show you a thousand VODs without matching rolls.
I only need one saying otherwise.

If my math isn't wrong even with all your VODS the odds of rolling the same number twice is that low since you have 1/100, so if each person can equally roll those 100 numbers that means there is a 1% chance to roll any number. In order to have a substantial test size you have to first understand the odds of the same number being rolled twice, aka the odds of the same 1% being hit twice.

The basic equation is 1/100 * 1/100 which equals to 1/10,000 that means there is a 1 in 10,000 chance to roll the same number or a .01% chance that when you roll need on an item and get a 74, another person getting that same number is .01% chance.

And here's the thing to consider. If rolling the same number wasn't possible, then logically speaking people who roll later have a higher percentage of getting a better number.

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

In the past, I've had to do normal so many times

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This is precise why they use a RNG based system. You've added to the queue for other players, thus keeping Omega Normal active. A token system means people will immediately stop queuing once they have what they want. I mean, think about it. Whenever you've lucky enough to get your pedal or bolt from V1N after only 1-3 tries. Do you go back or wait until the following week? If you want guaranteed gear, you have Lakshmi and crafted stuff as an alternative.

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Originally Posted by Airget

If my math isn't wrong even with all your VODS the odds of rolling the same number twice is that low since you have 1/100, so if each person can equally roll those 100 numbers that means there is a 1% chance to roll any number. In order to have a substantial test size you have to first understand the odds of the same number being rolled twice, aka the odds of the same 1% being hit twice.

The basic equation is 1/100 * 1/100 which equals to 1/10,000 that means there is a 1 in 10,000 chance to roll the same number or a .01% chance that when you roll need on an item and get a 74, another person getting that same number is .01% chance.

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You seem pretty bad at math
How can you have a 1/10,000 chance when there are only 99 possible numbers or outcomes?

It really doesn't matter what the first guy rolls. The second guy has a 1/99 chance of rolling the same number.

If the first guy rolled a 74. The second guy has a 1/99chance of rolling a 74.

If the first guy rolled a 63 the second guy has a 1/99 chance of rolling a 63.

What the first person rolls doesn't matter. There's always a 1/99chance the second roll will be the same.

Or a 2/99chance thenthird roll will match any of the previous 2 rolls regardless of what numbers those rolls were.

%chance = ((N-1)/99)×100. Where n is the number of people rolling.

What the rolls actually are doesn't matter the chance of any 2 being the same is whatever you get from that equation depending on the total number of rolls

2 people = 1.011% of both being the same
4 people = 3.033% of any 2 being the same
8 people = 7.077% any 2 will roll the same number

If you roll on the loot and then leave the dungeon afterward, does that mean you forfeit on the roll or will it still count after you leave?

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

A) Horribly complicated algorithm to create an entirely new version of how rolls take place after each player (who may be trying to roll at the same time, so even defining "after each" would eliminate normal threading).

B) Trivially simple random number generator roll, then an extra tie-breaker decision if necessary. And which apparently the devs themselves have said they use.

I think you're wrong on where the burden of proof would lie. Assume the one that actually makes sense over the one that doesn't unless there's clear proof to the contrary. And what proof does anyone have? That only a few people have noticed it happening? With 100 possibilities, there usually wouldn't be a tie anyway. (Ok, maybe a bit more often for 24 man content, but there how often do people actually check all 24 rolls for duplicates?)

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It's B, but we'll never see it. The first person to roll keeps their number. The tie breaker roll is made when the second (tying) roll is made, and it will keep rerolling until it gets a different number. We aren't given a number until it's different. This isn't a horribly complex algorithm.

Further, tied rolls would be incredibly common if they were actually possible. Far more common than getting NQ on a 99% quality craft, and people see those often enough it's become a trope.

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Originally Posted by Phelios

If you roll on the loot and then leave the dungeon afterward, does that mean you forfeit on the roll or will it still count after you leave?

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If you leave while a roll is in progress, you automatically pass on everything. You would forfeit any loot.

Here's why I think there is an apparently reasonable chance of a double roll (about 6% in a four man) but you rarely see it:

Since you don't see the numbers rolled by others until they have been resolved (and if a duplicate the re-roll has already been done) you will know there match if you are one of the players that rolled a duplicate number.

Even then you will only detect a match has occurred if you roll a number, remember what you rolled (or check the log) and notice it is different than your final loot roll result.

I think have seen this - where I have rolled a 99 and then my final roll was shown as 30 something and someone else had a 99 but I'm not 100% sure. I will have to watch for it in the next few instances I run.


If this is the case there is also no benefit to going early or late in the roll - due to latency, hacking concerns etc the rolls appear not to be resolved until all are registered. That's why you don't see anyone else's rolls until they are all in. So there is no real order in the rolls, they are all independent and resolved as a group (with a probably re-roll and assigning a new number to the loser on the event of a match - I'm not sure if it changes both of the matched rolls or not)

Nah, they don't need to change the timer. They need to upgrade their servers so you can roll and leave and if your roll wins it gets mailed to you.

It's the leave and forfeit that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Chocolys

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You can already tell who tried to wait out the timer because they show up as the first name in the rolls.

I'd be completely okay with a timer reduction to 1 minute. That's plenty of time for anyone to decide if they want something or not. It shouldn't take anyone 5 minutes to decide. I wouldn't mind either if it forced a pop up either instead of having to click on the tab to bring it up.