After some time i've decided to level up my DRK, in HW DRK had awesome AOE damage, perfect for roulettes, but now in SB, i'm feeling so weak when i have to AOE, quietus looks good, but it takes time to fill up the blood gauge. Is there any advice to improve my aoe damage as DRK? it's been very painful to level up him :(
DRK AOE Damage
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09-11-2017, 07:48 PMSirJeffersonDRK AOE Damage
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09-11-2017, 09:04 PMSarcatica
DRK ramps up slowly as you level because TBN is core to the Blood Gauge generation. It's still not as bad though considering that in Grit you get a good amount of mana every Syphon Strike, you are pretty much spamming Abyssal Drain till OOM then cycle combo for mana. Be aware that you want to at least have 60% total mana for every pull at least so that you can smoothly do your aoe.
IMHO DRK is still the no.1 tank for 4man dungeons mainly because your mana is the least of your concern especially if you like doing big pulls, WAR has TP issues whenever big pulling (Overpower is huge TP dump) and PLD has the 'most' problems doing big pulls because you normally run out of CDs more easily than the other 2 (even more severe if your 2 DPS aren't doing huge damage off aoes). DRK just has more tools to survive big pulls (mainly TBN) while providing damage with lots of sustain via DAAD (VS Clemency that doesn't do any damage). A Quietus over 3 sets++ of mobs is basically full mana and you can get more Quietus via TBN while more mana means more HP sustain. And yes, I have tried all the 3 tanks on DREX. In Ala Mhigo for example, after the first boss I usually pull 3 sets of mob, 3rd set has a lot of mobs, sprinting helps while TBN softens the damage to give your healer a buffer time. You pretty much gain unlimited mana on this one so you can just keep sustaining, another example is Temple of the Fist after 1st boss that I usually pull 2 sets of mobs with 2nd being a lot of mobs, haven't done the pulling until the 2 Singhas. -
09-11-2017, 10:56 PMAomine1992
It's going to be painful until you get TBN which is like your fuel for the whole class, before hand it's a bit incomplete until 70 also your gear at lvl 70 has the added strength so you will seem really weak until then
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09-11-2017, 11:16 PMbswpaytonSimple use abysmal drain , blood price use delirium while blood price is up. Use salted earth on every pull. Drk aoe is stronger than its ever been actuallyQuote:
Originally Posted by SirJefferson
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09-11-2017, 11:39 PMMauvaisOeilClearly not. The bp+bw ad spam was way stronger than now, and allowed us to top highest AOE dps jobs back then.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
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09-11-2017, 11:48 PMbswpaytonUr joking right delirium plus bp works just fine. I'm not sure what ur doing exactly, I heart no problem spamming drain more than ever. Salted earth gives u plenty of blood for quitius for more drain spam. Before MP was alot bigger issue in hw doesn't even exist nowQuote:
Originally Posted by MauvaisOeil
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09-12-2017, 08:55 AMMauvaisOeilCompletely not. First the MP gain on BP has been cut by 4. Then, the necessity to remain in grit is cutting all damage by 20%, plus blood weapon allowed to increase the rate of AD spam by 10. Resulting of 37.5% more damage from AD, and 25% of Salted earth, plus the casual DP to add more into the mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by bswpayton
Now if you want to use BP you need to remain into grit which basically lowers you damage, and you cannot continuously spam your AD due to MP restrains.
Even on the coblyn pack of temple of the fist, you will start with an uncontrolable gain of blood and MP, with even more lack of control due to TBN being used on cooldown for survival, and end starved like a noodle in plain sun when the mobs drops to 5 or lower, or BP fades out.
At the end of HW, with big pulls, you could wreck more than 6Kdps which was enough to break pretty much every other job due to how little you had to manage and carefully play in this situation. Now even if the AOE DPS of the DRK remains great, it's proportionally weaker.
So, on a semantic way : It is WEAKER now than what it used to be, but it should never have been a thing at the first time, hence the changes. -
09-12-2017, 07:46 PMSirJefferson
Thank you for your responses, guys!
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09-12-2017, 11:22 PMHierro
DRK freaking sucks for AoE simply due to the fact of how much more complex it's become since HW. Back in HW you turn off grit and spam DA-AD and sustain so much because you did tons of damage.
Now? You better forget about spamming DA-AD more than twice or else you have to wait until your mana refills or wait for TBN/quietus, or god forbid actually have to interrupt aoe for syphon strike spam.
Also, to that comment about WAR having weaker AoE due to TP constraints, do keep in mind steel cyclone/decimate/equilibrium exists. Plus, there's a good chance you'll have a caster/melee comp, meaning you can tell that smelly good-for-nothing dps to at least goad you. -
09-13-2017, 02:45 PMSarcaticaDRK is best on dungeon, you just suck at it. Try sustaining as WAR now on big pulls, I dare you. Goad is fine and all until you keep spamming Overpower and your TP is pretty much very low every time, Overpower doesn't generate any gauge which means that you are already losing Steel Cyclone/Decimate and Equilibrium is not always up. Compare that to DRK where DAAD into Quietus into DAAD and so on, TBN is mainly used to get more Quietus while blocking some damage. DRK can keep AOEing while after WAR has no TP has to do combo to get gauge into Steel Cyclone/Decimate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
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09-13-2017, 06:39 PMFreyyy
DRK is far better at AoEing than the other tanks and is the only one that actually feels a bit complex and rewarding in AoE situations. Anyone who thinks otherwise is doing something wrong. It's by far the best dungeon tank right now. And it feels absolutely great to me. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved the DA Dark Dance + DA DP full evasion tanking in HW, but the current DRK is far more intelligently designed in terms of AoE tanking and I start liking it more than the HW one. It's a blast.
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09-13-2017, 07:23 PMTheCountYou spam abyssal drain and use TBN to get gauge for your other aoe which you then use to continue abyssal drain or more TBN, you are hyping it's complexity a bit too much lol. Any complexity it has is mostly having to deal with mana management because blood price is absolute garbage nowadays with how much it gives youQuote:
Originally Posted by Freyyy
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09-13-2017, 07:43 PMFreyyyCompared to just spamming OP/TE and popping CDs without any mechanic, yes it's more complex. Nowhere have I said that it was very complex (I've even used "a bit complex" which means... a bit, not very), it's just more complex than the other tanks and requires a bit more intelligent button presses since there are actual job mechanics when dealing with AoE on DRK unlike the other two tanks. And while BP feels like garbage when you're not tanking a lot of mobs, it's actually quite good when doing gate-to-gate pulls. And you're not forced to stay in Grit either. I see plenty of people saying that you're forced to stay in tanking stance during AoE since SB but that's completely false. You can drop Grit and get extra damage + self healing from AD while benefitting from BW on Quietus and regaining a lot more MP than with BP, as long as you pop CDs and use TBN you won't feel squishy at all. I even have enough MP to use DA DP on CD by doing this while also being able to DA every AD and sometimes even Quietus depending on the number of mobs, and still popping TBN on CD. The damage is insane, the tankiness is completely fine and it feels awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCount
And yes, current DRK is more complex than just popping DA DP + DA DD and spamming AD. Even if it felt great in HW, it's still a whole lot more fun in SB.
Edit : And I'll add that DRK also is limitless in dungeons. The other tanks are bound to the slow natural TP regen if no one gives them Goad (or if there's no melee at all), and it definitely limits them a lot when dealing with successions of big packs of mobs. DRK can sprint from pack to pack without worrying at all about resource regeneration. Feels really good. -
09-13-2017, 07:46 PMSarcaticaThe funny thing is mana management is overrated if you pull gazillions of mobs. DAAD into DAAD then Quietus, TBN whenever up and DA Quietus some of the times too. I might just record the whole DREX dungeon to show how DRK doesn't have the limitation that the other 2 tanks have.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCount
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09-13-2017, 10:06 PMHierroQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
Hilarious, absolutely hilarious. I've tanked every dungeon as WAR multiples of multiple times, and funny enough, I've not had TP issues. This isn't to say I've been shy about pressing that overpower button either, no, that's seen enough use to wear the button out.
Simply put things die when I start AoEing. There's no need to sustain when mobs die from your burst. /blackguytouchingtemple.jpg
DRK dungeon tanking is not hard either, just convoluted and complex. Get out of here for thinking that I in particular would suck at it. -
09-14-2017, 04:14 AMInfiniDragon
I don't know what to tell you but DRK is super good at AOE. It's the one thing I think they still do better than the other tanks.
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09-14-2017, 01:00 PMTheCount
I happen to play all three tanks and I don't understand this claim that DRK's are limitless compared to the Warrior and Paladin in their AOE. In fact you're more liable to face the limits of DRK mana unless it's a truly massive pull with lots of small little adds in which case yeah they are pretty much limitless with their resource; but those ocassions where you get that many mobs at once are very few. With DRK you have to be constantly aware of your mana in fights or risk the chance that you use too much and end up not having enough to do that unleash/abyssal drain to get the aggro on that next group of adds that spawn or some similar circumstance. Warriors and Paladins never have this issue.
the only way you'll be TP starved for warrior for example is if you use overpower and only overpower, which is limiting the moves you have available. If you're particularly confident you could even use inner release to spam decimate even.
The DRK's in here should stop exaggerating the AOE potential and 'limitless' resources they have available compared to other tanks, it's not that much of a difference and one of the main themes of DRK is that they are constantly juggling their resources, way more than the other tanks. Sure it's slightly more punishing if a Warrior runs out of TP but it regens quick enough between fights anyway and the fights themselves don't last so long that it's actually an issue -
09-14-2017, 01:50 PMHierroTHIS! and to drive the point further, those pulls with many small adds tend to die real fast real easily. It's overkill and done before you know it. The one situation that makes DRK the most "limitless" is the one where it's needed the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCount
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09-14-2017, 06:47 PMSarcatica
But the measurement of successful big pulls is the ability to get dungeon's time as low as possible.
You won't be able to generate more gauge while Overpower is still your no.1 aoe skill so you are spending a lot of time trying to combo to get Decimate or Steel Cyclone. As long as you have BP as a DRK, you are pretty much getting a lot of Quietus on big pulls while TBN gives you more Quietus to keep sustaining and not using other skills than DAAD or just AD.
I have been clocking from 1st pull (the moment I touch 1st add) in 12mins to 13mins for all DREXs iirc. I haven't been able to do those times with PLD or WAR.
https://i.imgur.com/5EYxrMX.png 16,248 DPS total
https://i.imgur.com/BsCbgdA.png 12,991 DPS total
https://i.imgur.com/B7NIqmM.png 10,504 DPS total. Seems to the worse due to ilvl sync, but also been quite awhile since I do Ala Mhigo. Might be possible to reach 15mins for this, the 16:11 had 1 DPS doing 600dps less than the other one, the healer also prolly could be higher. -
09-15-2017, 05:38 AMSeku
To the OP,
You're basically having to rebuild your AoE set back up since SE thought it would be cool to nerf the old set of skills and then just give us revamped versions of it to depend on blood.
Everything has been answered here, while leveling up DRK is really weak. When you hit 70 it's the best dungeon tank if you're going for speed clears and damage on trash packs. PLD is good if you think your healer may not be up to par (and the tank I suggest if you're not 100% on top of your game or you get the feeling you'll get a horrible healer). But if you know what you're doing and you know you won't have to pick up the slack of a bad healer, I'd say go DRK all day every day. -
09-15-2017, 12:49 PMMithron
DRK is still AoE tank king and it's still pretty great, but is much worse than it used to be in HW for sure. Blood Price nerf hurt a lot, and Delirium's CD is too long to make up for it. Quietus and The Blackest Night however are your new tools that help a ton. On big pulls, you'll be getting more than enough Blood fueled by your Blood Price and Salted Earth alone, with some The Blackest Nights sprinkled in as well, which will make Quietus spam pretty frequent and honestly give you enough MP to even Dark Arts them to prevent overcapping on MP. I think the dream would be to let Abyssal Drain give some Blood so you can just spam Abyssal with Quietus non-stop on say 4+ mobs. Not exactly broken in any boss fights, so it would just be really fun to do in dungeons.
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09-25-2017, 12:42 PMPhoeniciaI can argue that DRK is NOT the AoE king in any form. Specially if you know the aggro on their AoE moves lol. However, they are really fun in AoE and if the resources are juggled right they can go on forever. But the same is true for the other 2 tanks as well. If anything DRK has the weakest defense in sustained AoE situations even with DAAD which cannot be sustained for too long because of the MP restraints. TBN only adds to the MP restraints if it fails to pop (it shouldn't fail) and its CD is not short enough to cover the CD gaps between the horrible ones (Shadow Wall and LD). A DRK WILL definitely have trouble carrying a bad healer where WAR and PLD may not, and dropping Grit can be a problem with average healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithron
I have never run out of TP on WAR, I'm even surprised it's mentioned here as an issue. Just like DRK where you need to Siphon Strike here and there to regain MP (AoE downtime), WAR SHOULD do Storm's Eye to get the 20% damage buff and doing Storm's Path here and there for gauge is not a bad idea. WAR's AoE doesn't come from Overpower alone, but also from the 2.5 times stronger Steel Cyclone (remember ignores defiance penalty and heals 25% of damage done) and Decimate. If you are spamming only overpower, that's like a DRK spamming only Unleash and then wonder why they're out of resource and their DPS is crap. And if you went overboard on TP (and you never need to) you have Deliverance Equilibrium. TP also regens, and fast, unlike DRK's MP. As far as mitigation goes, WAR has the highest personal mitigation between the through their shorter CDs, not counting Defiance-locked tools (Inner Beast, heals from Steel Cyclone and Equilibrium).
Heck, even PLD is not bad in AoE, you Flash once which generates twice the enmity Abyssal Drain, drop Shield Oath and spam Total Eclipse until near out of TP. You have enough CDs to cycle for the AoE damage intake without Shield Oath. Once you're out of TP, you stop your AoE (Like every other tank) and pick a target to Holy Spirit their face under requeisat, or even cycle through the targets with it to damage multiple ones and never fall behind on enmity, by the time you're out of MP, the pack should be dead or you have enough TP to hit more. If not, replace your DPS and maybe tell your healer to DPS more. You have Hallowed Ground for a reason, and it's not for them to watch you while their MP is full.
All in all, none of the tanks is bad at AOE and the gap between them is totally negligible. And DRK is definitely not the best among them at it. if I wanna rank them:
Mitigation: PLD = WAR > DRK. PLD has some passive mitigation and HG, WAR has more CDs to cycle and self healing on WAR doesn't stop its AoE DPS.
Aggro: WAR > DRK > PLD. Overpower has a 10x multiplier on its 120 potency (1200) and can crit and DH, also Steel Cyclone is roughly 750 potency. Equilibrium alone is insane aggro. PLD is worst at enmity because Total Eclipse has no enmity multiplier but it's still a 110 potency spammable. DRK's Unleash is bad for DPS at 50 potency and its their highest AoE enmity at a multiplier of 20.6, AD has a 6x which is half a Flash/Overpower.
DPS: WAR >= DRK > PLD. The difference isn't huge. Not huge enough to make a whole minute difference on a dungeon run anyways. Specially if you take their mitigation and healer's DPS contribution. As explained earlier, WAR can decimate, literally and figuratively, packs with big bursts. PLD only drops in AoE because of Holy Spirit, but that's very high single target burst DPS. And DRK is a cycle of sustained AoE then MP regen then sustained AoE again with slight bursts.
Ease of use: PLD > WAR > DRK. Should be quite obvious why.
A lot of the above has my opinion and personal experience, so take what you don't like with a grain of salt.
~ Phoenicia ~ -
09-25-2017, 01:50 PMSarcaticaDRK is still best on dungeon. I occasionally go back to WAR and TP is still an issue, are you even spamming Overpower? Because gauges takes ages to refill through combos. DRK cycling mana through Syphon is only when your mob count is 2-3 left (if 3-4 of them are dying at the same time because of AoE, you need to prep for mana), you never go out of the way trying to cycle mana so early in the pull, if any, you are just not managing your Blood Gauge and mana well enough prior to every pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
PLD still is the worst in terms of self sustain (WAR is almost the same for this), and the mitigation tool for big pull as a PLD is by far the weakest. Rampart, Sentinel, HG are all good. BUT if you are trying to do sub 13-14mins, you can only use 2 HG and you have to use 1st HG early on. Sheltron sucks in packs of mobs, if you have to ask why then I have nothing to say. You want sustain? Drop your GCDs for it, let me spell it right: B A D. Why drop dps to heal when you can do both as DRK?
All things mentioned in this thread is mostly for personal DPS, sure WAR can do huge amount of burst once in awhile but that's on the expense of healer needing to heal more because WAR's self heal is pretty weak (VS DRK in aoe). Healer can contribute a lot in aoe situations, their 1 gcd is so much more valuable vs your "Blaze parse in DPS stance 6x Decimate". Equilibrium is for TP, Goad and/or Tactician still not enough if you spam Overpower which is your main aoe tool outside of gauge, you pretty much have a lot of aoe downtime if you use combo where DRK has almost no issue in big pulls.
Summary for lvl70 tanks in 4man dungeons big (gate to gate, mostly) pulling:
Mitigation: DRK >> WAR >> PLD. TBN and self heals >>>> WAR/PLD. WAR has more potent CDs than PLD. Sheltron is really good I think, maybe.
Aggro: DRK > PLD > WAR. Picking up mobs as WAR sucks without Flash. PLD might get into aggro problem but WAR feels clunky especially when all the dps like to start their combos real bad. Let's be real here, if you lose aggro when you are clumped up, you are bad. Picking up mobs is much more relevant.
DPS: WAR (only for personal) >= DRK (I still rate DRK much higher than WAR) > PLD. WAR's dps is mostly just personal. DRK if you look at total dps. PLD is by far the worst in this department due to FoF and Requiescat timing. PLD's aoe burst is only during FoF, Requiescat is mostly for when you have no more TP to spam aoe or if your mob count is 3 or less.
I have full i340 with i345 weapon for all tanks now, I have also provided my DRK datas for all DREX "speedrun" in my previous claims in this thread.
EDIT: DISCLAIMER: You will get different healers and how they do dungeons is outside of my points. You will also get different dps and they might not aoe because they say they are melee? (Duh), or casters doing 2.5k dps for the entirety of the dungeon. -
09-25-2017, 04:34 PMPhoeniciaI don't really want to argue much on this topic. But really, you make it sound that DRK is BLM in plate armor. When in fact, it doesn't matter which tank you have as long as your pulls big. Any good DPS will do three times your DPS "at least". And on bosses (single target) DRK is clearly the biggest loser in ST-DPS between the tanks so even if you did more AoE in packs, you slow the run on bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
You lost your own argument when you said WAR's personal DPS beats DRK's. Personal DPS is all there is to a tank's DPS since no tank brings a DPS buff. But WAR brings slashing so SAM and NIN don't have to apply it when AoEing. Unless you mean DPS gained from mitigation, then we're back to DRK having the worst of the three tanks in general, SPECIALLY in AoE. Let's not forget DRK is the only tank that doesn't want WHM to do Holy.
And I don't understand why you think picking mobs on WAR is hard because they don't have Flash. I never even cross-classed it when we could. I bet you pick up mobs with Unleash on DRK? Why? You can do the same with Abyssal Drain btw and it does more damage. I never had any loose mobs because of the overeager DPS that "want to just do their combos". Even with BLMs or monks going ape-poop insane. You just run in, angle yourself and press Overpower, and Voila! Everything's on you. The hitbox on it is RETARDEDLY big.
Also you said "Sheltron sucks in packs of mobs" in one paragraph and then say "Sheltron is really good I think, maybe." in the next. Which is it? Are you sure YOU know what you're talking about? Also you're undermining PLD's mitigation when PLD has 2 cooldowns over DRK. Every CD the DRK has the PLD has it or a better version of it. Both have Ramps, Sentinel is better than Shadow Wall. HG is better than LD. Both have Anticipation, and PLD has Bulwark. And Clemency on self is ironically more aggro than anything the DRK has. And yes HG is long, but the value is that when it's used, everyone (including the PLD) is free to just go full DPS.
Yes Shelton is bad on packs, but so is TBN really. 20% of health is what? 12k? That's less than a Cure II. Clemency heals more than that and can crit, and as I said earlier, generates massive enmity if done in ShO. You basically spend DA worth of MP to get a under a cure 2 worth of HP. An Adlo. Then it breaks and goes on a 15 second CD.
And from the sound of it you're attributing sub 15-minute dungeon clears completely to your tank choice because you make it sound that DRK does BLM-level of AoE damage. I'll be blunt and say it this way: The ONLY thing a tank can contribute to a speed dungeon clear is how big you can pull without sacrificing your healer's sanity, and how fast do you sprint between said pulls. Because in fact, believe it or not, it relies almost completely on who your DPS are. Casters that don't AoE or melee that do 1k DPS in AoE will make your dungeon last an eternity no matter how much YOU DPS. And an 8k DPS BLM will make you look bad no matter what tank you are.
Don't get me wrong though, DRK is really fun in AoE, probably the most fun of the three. It is my tank of choice in dungeons, but not because it does more or less than WAR or PLD, but because the whole thing with TBN, Quietus and MP management for near infinite AoE spam is fun. So if you find DRK your cup of tea in dungeons, by all means, go ahead. But let's stop pretending that fast clears are all because of DRK's AoE DPS.
~ Phoenicia ~ -
09-25-2017, 05:59 PMSarcaticaThis is why people should learn to understand first before replying. Since when did I mention that DRK's dmg is superior? WAR is superior in vacuum but you fail to mention healer's dps. You clearly do not understand the value of party DPS, WAR additional damage has a huge price weighing down healer's dps. WHM's Holy is only 6 secs stuns, you barely gain anything much from that which means that DRK should always play around that 6 secs and have more mana ready for next pulls. Sheltron's mitigation on an autoattack is like 400-600dmg, VS TBN at 11k. You are basically freeing your healer to top up more while you are also sustaining as a DRK. Clemency is a GCD loss, DAAD isn't and it does both dps and heal, what are you trying to say? WAR isn't anywhere better as well. DRK is the job that you want to bring if you have a competent team. Fastest clear by far has been DRK for me in all DREX, that says a lot and I can't achieve those timings as WAR/PLD as a matter of fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
You also lost your argument when you mention that a good DPS should TRIPLE a tank's dps. That's just plain wrong and you don't even have the data to support that claim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
https://i.imgur.com/5EYxrMX.png 16,248 DPS total
I average about 2.5-3k damage depending on how fast or how slow the group is, does that mean that a DPS should be doing 7k++ at least? That's bullshit. Great DPS average at 5k++ dps each easily but that's not triple a tank's dps. UNLESS if you ARE doing 2k or less, then I will shut up. LUL
Don't even try to walk this way out tell that I'm wrong etc and the "I pay my sub, I do what I want" or "This is just a game, wtf so HC" or whatever reasons you can think of. I have more data if you want, but I will let it sink for now. Don't expose your opinions as the 'fact' when you can't prove it.
People like to think in vacuum but that's not how things work. Prove it if WAR is any better, but have some data for me to see at least. -
09-26-2017, 10:25 AMHierroI'd provide data for you, and I'm sure others might as well, but I have to work with what I got, and my faithful ps4 does not come with the ability to have third party programs, and so, this data you desire shall not be granted. However, comparisons can still be made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
You rate DRK as having the best aggro management, but really, that's chalked up to your lack of experience with WAR's very wide and far reaching cone. I used to think WAR was heavily nerfed when flash was removed, but you know, after learning POSITIONING, it was no issue at all and grabbing hate has never been an issue.
One factor you bring up very often is party DPS, but really, it's healer+tank combined since any dps is irrelevant to which tank is playing. Natively, DRK has living dead, SW and TBN, but WAR has ToB, raw intuition (whihc makes far better use of awareness), and equilibrium, and vengeance. Sure, TBN accounts for a good chunk and can be re-deployed more than once in a pull, but with its short duration, paired with SW's short duration, it translates into a big pull that must be burned quickly lest you find yourself starved for CDs next pull. Maybe you can make an arguement for using DA-AD in between those holes of mitigation, but that can only do so much because its' still DPS hampered by BP's grit lock.
WAR on the other hand can handle a prolonged large pull far more easily thanks to its plethora of CDs that retain their effectiveness past a few seconds. Unlike DRK, WAR's damage can be kept without stressing the healer out. You can use fewer CDs when you opt to use unchained, and more CDs when you're using deliverance. In either case, you have enough CDs to maintain above-sufficient mitigation, but perform more damage. Keep in mind, i'ts not just obtaining more damage in the form of losing a tank stance penalty, but also having access to berserk every pull.
Also, I'd like to point out that you excuse DRK being able to spam syphon strike when a pull is whittled down to its stranglers, yet seem to think that does not apply to WAR when it comes to building gauge between pulls. But really, if a team is truly competent then that's even more in favor of WAR because ensures mobs die quickly which negates WAR's percieved TP issue.
No doubt, however, that DRK can very well indeed jump into AoEing at least 3 GCDs earlier than WAR and provide a more continuous stream of abyssal drains. Since making my last posts criticizing DRK's AoE as being interrupted, I have practiced more and seen you can definitely keep yourself going in between quietus uses and non-DA'd AD. However, it is also far more noticable that my AoE is indeed less impactful and damaging than WAR. As to whether that results in more DPS than WAR, hard to say since it depends on other factors, but like earlier said, a need for such a continous stream is not needed when things die quickly, and as earlier posted, things die quickly when you're playing WAR.
in short, a correctly played WAR's higher damage does not come at the healer's expense. -
09-26-2017, 11:07 AMSarcaticaWe can do an easy comparison. For WAR to not impact healer's ability to dps, mobs HAVE to die in 3 GCDs. That's not possible. On big pulls, you are taking 20-30k per auto from all mobs. No matter how tanky you are, you will still need heal. DRK can sustain about 1/2 of that and TBN blocks almost another 1/2. The only time you need some support from healer is when your TBN is on CD which is an instant 11k 'heal'. Compare that to WAR with very limited self heal and the need to heal makes healers needing to switch it up and heal more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hierro
Let's talk about healer's dps in aoe situation. 1 gcd is 1.5k potency on average. For every heal, you are talking about that much potency lost. When WAR decides to tank, healers will have less uptime. Again, no matter how tanky WAR is, you still need heals. At higher potency, WAR denies healer the ability to dps more. You cant possibly do 6x Decimate for every pull if you look to end in 13mins and it takes a lot of time to build 100 gauge. It takes 4 combos which is about 25s that you are not aoe-ing. Which means that on average you are potentially losing up to 800 potency per gcd for every time you are building up 100 gauge for 6x Decimates.
DRK while enables healer to dps doesn't completely stop doing dps. DRK potency is lower than WAR that's for sure. Remember that every tank still needs heal just that DRK is conveniently as such that you get tools to deal with big pulling. So for what DRK is losing to WAR, healer's dps can offset and surpasses by at least 700 potency per gcd. 700 potency offset that is more consistent and has less swings is how high dps as a team is achieved. My healer friend is consistently doing more dps than me for the entirety of the DREXs, not including Ala Mhigo ofc. -
09-26-2017, 11:33 AMPhoeniciaOkay, maybe I don't know how to do 1+1=2. But how does 11k irreplenishable shield every 15 seconds block half 20-30k PER AUTO (which is every 2~4 seconds)? Stop there, and think carefully before you try and continue this argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
Another hint: DA costs 25% of your MP bar, AD costs 13% .DAAD is 38%, TBN is also 25%. How is spending 63% (more than half your MP) in 1 GCD and then the remiaining 38% the next GCD "sustainable"?.
Heck, WAR spamming NOTHING but Overpower can last at least 10 GCDs not counting TP regen (which would be 450 over 25 seconds) or Deliverance Equilibrium. DRK runs dry in 2 GCDs if using DAAD and a TBN to "sustain" the damage it takes. And do not even try to convince me that Blood Price is enough. Quietus will be 2 more AoE GCDs counting Quietus itself. And all the healer needs to ruin your day is Swiftcast a Holy.
Speaking of WHM and healer's DPS, the SECOND WHM spams holy, that's 10s of continuous AoE Stun-lock. TBN duration is 5s, 1 mistimed Holy (6s stun) will have dug a hole 25% deep into your MP with no gauge or potency to show for it. That alone shows how "bad" DRK synergizes with WHM.
I will stop here because it seems to me you are either unwilling to admit that DRK isn't "king" of AoE or do not have enough experience on the other two tanks to know enough.
As for proof, I can crop the same section on <insert cerain third party program name here> of any part of a 12 minute run in any dungeon and write next to it a number of total DPS, but what if 80% of that total DPS is the insanely GOD tier BLMs? Your cropped part doesn't even show what class you were, if you were even in there. And to be honest it doesn't matter. Tank+Healer combined DPS will only make the run a few seconds faster/slower.
As I said in my previous post: A tank's only contribution to a speed dungeon clear is How big you Pull without dying and how fast you run between said pulls. The healer's contribution is making sure no wipes in the process. The rest is ALL in your DPS class's hands. And if you think a BLM or SMN can't parse 8k on a pack, you need to run with better casters. -
09-26-2017, 12:03 PMSarcatica20k-30k is figuratively speaking. TBN works to also give mana via Quietus which enables healing. Like mentioned, it's about half-half mitigation so healer needs to still heal a bit but not as much as if your WAR go all ham for that 6x Decimate. You never go dry in big pulls, BP gives 1 gauge for every hit, TBN gives 50 gauge, if any, you are sure to cap your mana on big pulls due to how many mobs are hitting you. Hence you can back to back DAAD into Quietus into TBN Quietus DAAD DAAD Quietus etc. Only once your mobs count start going down that your mana take a hit and you need to sustain via Syphon and BP is normally up for start of each pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
You forget to account that healer can be AST or SCH, not just WHM. And as mentioned again, you play around WHM because of that multiple stuns to maximize your TBN value and mana value. Which idiot uses TBN when mobs are stunned, you also fail to mention that 1st GCD of WHM's rotation is Aero 3 and that's ample of time for mobs to break your TBN when stationary. Please do read my comments again before replying.
You can stop whenever, I know how to play tank well enough. Can you say the same for your case? I seeing a bunch of blues and low purples here.
If you want me to provide the full screenies then say so. You don't need to resort to saying excuses that you think it might be the case. All the 3 runs linked are full runs from 1st pull, I have no obligation to entertain you tbh.
It is important for me that I as a tank can maximize everyone's dps whenever possible. What I sacrifice can reap the team a much better results in the dungeon case where you are taking constant high dmg spikes. If this works for everything else, heck, I will do it for the party BUT that's still depending on the context. -
09-26-2017, 01:00 PMPhoeniciaSure, let's ignore all the math and resort to personal insults. And how do we do that these days? By checking FFLogs and pick up the odd runs where they parse gray and low purples. Let's pick the ilv316 BRD runs where healers can't find their Medica button and ignore the part in there where it says 40s without healing. Let's also ignore the high purples and orange parses that were in normal kills, not even "FFlog parse runs". Let's also pretend that we do know the other person and assume that none of their Exdeath runs were above 4.3k when the group decides to die to black orbs or stand in fire but when they finally get petrified because random healer couldn't find Medica again a melee sneaks LB2 and Exdad dies and the parse registers a blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
Did you bother to check my tank runs on the primals? None of them is below 87, that's ilv 316, last week (so still relevant) and without food or pots? Most of them as main tank, meaning defensive play and sneaking into tank stance at one time or another.
Low FFLogs don't mean jack. I mean if I cared so much about my parses I wouldn't use the PF ever. I would also hide my character since I have low purples.
I was not even arguing that DRK is week in AoE in any form. Just the notion of being "king" is misguiding. Each tank brings something to the table. And no matter how well you do DPS wise on your tank, your contribution to speed clear in THAT specific regard is ~20seconds give or take. The rest is in your DDs' hands.
Either way, I'll quote myself again:
CheersQuote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
~ Phoenicia ~ -
09-26-2017, 01:24 PMSarcaticaI disagree about your stand on FFlogs, it's a mean to check how capable you are. Any good DPS/tanks/healers can get 90%++ and that's a fact, the rest comes from team optimization and strat etc. It's all about the mentality that you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
My stand on DRK being king in aoe is not misguided, your 2 DPS in dungeons can only go so high that the tank/healer dps as a whole weighs more. You can take your time in dungeons and that's fine. BUT don't try to say that WAR or PLD is king when DRK can speed up, albeit a little, but hey at least you tried. I am basing efficiency on the lowest time required to clear dungeons, if you don't like it then you shouldn't even show up and try to tickle the fact that this whole thing "doesn't matter". This is like the level of people saying DRK is fine when WAR currently actually supercedes DRK in Savage speedruns (please read again, SAVAGE). Yes, 200dps extra matters if you want to push the limit. -
09-26-2017, 01:35 PMPhoeniciaAnd I have these 90s in almost every fight and on multiple jobs in different roles.. Your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
And again, I'm not claiming any of the tanks is "king". But if there's a king it sure isn't DRK. PLD and WAR both mitigate more damage so more healer DPS just for having them. Just check the rest of the forums for the cry-out that is still there for DRK mitigation buffs. And sure, all you want is a 12 minute run? Let me grab my WAR tank and get back to you in a few days after I find my good mates.
Either way I said what I have. See you around.