Melee DPS need some work. (Suggestions)

So lately more than ever i've noticed that melee DPS have been really lacking. It's to the point where the average Frontlines match hardly has any. Feast only having them due to it being a requirement. 4.06A in particular hit Melee dps as a whole pretty hard. Despite ninja itself being a lot more fluid (in my opnion at least).

Monk
Monk has absolutely no utility, more so its sustained dps is no longer even leading the melee dps pack. The nerf to Tornado kick AND riddle of fire was a bit to much. Perhaps if their Snap punch Combo and Demolish combo had more potency. Monk could still be viable without having an overpowered burst. However, i was fine with Monks burst being a strong point due to it having no utility. Perhaps even giving Monk a pacify like it use to have with Axe kick would give monk a little much needed love.

Ninja
Ninja like i said acctually feels pretty good right now. However i do feel like Hide is pretty useless. I can partially see why they dont want Hide to last as long as it use to however, it taking up all of its Scroll but letting it hide much longer seems like it would be a fair trade.

Dragoon
I think Dragoon just needs a bit more potency. Its dammage is still pretty good but if its selling point is sustainable dammage like it seems to be it just needs a tiny tiny bit more. I would not mind it having a stun as well but id be fine even if it didnt.

Samurai
I think a lot of Sams issues could be solved with just overall latency issues being fixed. Have you ever tried to hit a moving target with Soten?
Latency makes a lot of its kit less useful in PvP. It's AoE and Soten come to mind.

Warrior (yes i know Warrior isnt a melee dps)
War in my opnion would acctually be very good if it could build up it's Beast gauge faster. It would let War be more aggrsive and fill that (Tank/Dps) hybrid Role it seems to be aimed at. Having no real means of Party support compared to what DRK and PLD have.

SE seems to at least be making an effort to Fix PvP now. Any more melee suggestions would be Welcomed, perhaps they will be noted.

I mean drg should get its stun back with monk getting pacify as well. If s.e wanted to make pvp equal that would make sense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Miasma

Samurai
I think a lot of Sams issues could be solved with just overall latency issues being fixed. Have you ever tried to hit a moving target with Soten?
Latency makes a lot of its kit less iseful in PvP. It's AoE and Soten come to mind.

---

I think you missed the point of Soten. You're never specifically trying to hit someone with it, just using it to get closer or further away. Hitting ranged targets is what Enpi is for. While Soten can be used in the way you said, it's easier to use a target macro if that's your goal.

Samurai's only issue comes from Iaijutsu, and that problem is not present in frontline and only in the feast. The easiest way to fix it would be to just give Sam a heavy or a stun.

PVP is definitely ranged DPS' game.

Melee DPS need some form of slow to help stick to targets. Every single one of my games lately has been team gets a single kill and then it's almost 7 minutes of kiting until the match is over rofl.

Taking frontline seriously :ZLUUUUL:

I know red mage isn't technically a melee class, but when we get in melee range, for the love of all things verholy, please let corps-a-corps stun the target!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stormfur

I know red mage isn't technically a melee class, but when we get in melee range, for the love of all things verholy, please let corps-a-corps stun the target!

---

umm...? Don't you have a heavy lol. Rdm not in the best spot but I don't think it needs a stun haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

umm...? Don't you have a heavy lol. Rdm not in the best spot but I don't think it needs a stun haha

---

The heavy is 3 seconds, gcd and needs to be aimed in a cone (its not like overpower, if u have to manually aim it, it wont target someone just because u have them targeted). I agree that a stun is too much, but maybe put the heavy on corps-a-corps instead and do something else with flunge.

The problem with adjusting melee DPS based on frontline is that it will have a negative effect on Feast. Ranged DPS are actually much weaker in a 4 v 4 setting than they are in a big group pvp setting.
They also recently nerfed Melee DPS Damage the nerf will be kind of pointless if they just go back on it because of frontline players.

In my opinion they should start splitting up Frontline and Ranked PVP adjustments because both worlds are so different now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vejjiegirl

snip.

---

Not just directed at you but.. You guys realize he mentioned both FL and feast right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shirolumi

The heavy is 3 seconds, gcd and needs to be aimed in a cone (its not like overpower, if u have to manually aim it, it wont target someone just because u have them targeted). I agree that a stun is too much, but maybe put the heavy on corps-a-corps instead and do something else with flunge.

---

I can dig it. Though wouldn't it be simpler to just adjust flunge's heavy to at least guarantee the heavy on the player you have targeted?

I think either change is probably fine though. I just don't think I can agree with a stun. Especially since that might not even work out that great anyway. I think Tanks provide enough stun as it is, then if you were partied with a Ninja it could just be a pain to ever actually see that stun come into play imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PappaSmurff

Taking frontline seriously :ZLUUUUL:

---

You do know i mentioned both frontlines and feast right?

Feast and Frontline modes are NOT the same, I know you mentioned both in your OP however I do not feel melee DPS are even remotely as bad as you state in Feast as they are in Frontline.


Personally I do not feel melee DPS are in a bad spot in feast as they are required to work with the ranged DPS to get kills.
I do not feel 4 v 4 ranked should be put in a situation where one DPS is needed over the other. Ranged DPS was too weak in the past and needed a slight buff while melee DPS (monk) was too strong and got nerfed.

As a healer I still feel pressure from certain melee DPS, even with the dps nerf monks still hit extremely hard. On the flip side as a healer there are certain players that I feel absolutely no pressure from when they play monk. Even when SE reduced everyone to just 9 buttons there are players that do not bring out the full potential of their job, which I think is the core problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vejjiegirl

snip

---

No offense met but did you actually read each of his supposed buffs? While I don't necessarily agree with them . None of them were that serious of a buff.

Also more than just monk got nerfed. Blm was also nerfed. Only rdm was really buffed. Brd is very powerful. No job can discount another role wise before 4.06 or after.

Ranged have the safety of being able to be farther away, Ranged have CC and a bit of utility depending on the job.

Melee are a mixed bag, Ninja has CC/Burst and they can't really use both at the same time too often, Monk has burst/sustain and a bit of damage mitigation,
Dragoon has a bit of team utility and sustain with okay burst with a decent windup time, and Samurai has many tools that all feed from the same resource but have become the highest mobility melee if played properly with decent self utility.


I think the nerfs to Monk were justified, I think Dragoon was fine, but both of these jobs are still fine after 4.06a.

I will however say that there are things that aren't fully balanced with either role, Ranged or melee.

Most melee have no forms of CC, even the ones that could use it.

Once upon a time melee was indeed very powerful but this new version of the feast isn't the old version.

Healers can be very strong, DPS jobs have very little to optimize the way they play even at the highest level when it comes to playing their jobs. Instead you have to optimize your strategy, teamwork, and calls to your team, and hope they reply in kind. This is how you carry as a DPS right now, by getting the team to actually work together beyond just facerolling burst rotations into shielding on the same target.

The biggest mistake everyone seems to be making is forgetting that this mode is based on team play.

Everyone feels "their role" is super hard to use. Everyone wants to see buffs and not nerfs. This is the nature of any competitive atmosphere.

Yes Monks do still do a lot of damage, but have you noticed every melee has a DPS burst telegraph? If a Monk is stunned during riddle of fire, you get rid of a lot of that threat. Triple Mudra? Midare Setsu? Red BoTD(+Battle Lit)?

A Good player will make you feel pressure regardless of what you're playing and what they're playing if they're actually good at what they do.

But this doesn't change the fact that each role has jobs that could use a little love (like RDM) and jobs that needed a little toning down (like MNK)

But those jobs themselves do not define the entire role they belong to.


@OP: I suggest editing your post to include your information in one post rather than splitting it into different posts. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet, as is normal on the forum in this case, but you can edit your post to get past the character limitation. If you originally posted on mobile you can always edit your posts later on a PC when you're around one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Most melee have no forms of CC, even the ones that could use it.

Healers can be very strong, DPS jobs have very little to optimize the way they play even at the highest level when it comes to playing their jobs. Instead you have to optimize your strategy, teamwork, and calls to your team, and hope they reply in kind. This is how you carry as a DPS right now, by getting the team to actually work together beyond just facerolling burst rotations into shielding on the same target.

The biggest mistake everyone seems to be making is forgetting that this mode is based on team play.

Yes Monks do still do a lot of damage, but have you noticed every melee has a DPS burst telegraph? If a Monk is stunned during riddle of fire, you get rid of a lot of that threat. Triple Mudra? Midare Setsu? Red BoTD(+Battle Lit)?

---

1) Melee need some form of slow/CC that helps them stick to a target. Lots of people are playing Samurai now because of their unparalleled mobility and the classes that do bring slows can't use them because they are too busy spam healing the crazy amount of damage the ranged class is doing to the melee. Melee need the tools to do their job, the only one that has ANY of those tools is Ninja and they have literally every single tool. Relying on someone helping the melee stick to a target with the limited communication we have is a joke. There's not a single other MMO on the market that has PvP that gives their DPS classes so little tools to help people perform their role.

2) "Hope they reply in kind". For a type of match setting that they want to be competitive, I just LOVE the aspect of relying on my hopes and prayers that they will burst the same time I do.

3) We don't forget that it's team play, it's just....SE doesn't give us any real options aside from spamming "Attacking melee!" 345 times hoping people help.

4) DPS wind-up doesn't really matter at the moment in high level play. Mainly because at any given time you're working through a TBN+Benision/TBN+Adlo shields, so you have a whole 2 seconds worth of actual damage on the person before shields go back up. Just another symptom of class imbalance. Feeling punished for not having certain roles on your team feels great. Ninja burst doesn't happen during Triple Mudra anyway, it's usually Bhava+Assassinate into Triple Mudra.

5) Healers can easily carry matches while the other roles kinda can't. I can't do my job if I'm dead, so playing a DPS class is reliant on the healers skill. Healers and takes are by far the strongest roles in the Feast at the moment. Can a DPS make a difference in a match? Yes. Carry? Potentially, if their teammates are good enough. Solo carry? Nah. Go play Whm/Sch/Drk for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krolja

snip

---

There's much truth to this post.

Point 1: You are correct. We need a QoL style fix to allow us to do our jobs. Especially those melee stuck due to having slightly higher than need be latency.

Point 2: This is pretty much what I meant. We can only hope the team mates actually follow through with our strategies. In practice this does not happen as often as one would like. Though when it does the match can be sealed quite quickly. However this is honestly a balance disaster, against good players with a small amount of coordination when your team has none, it may seem that melee are very powerful. When all that really has happened is the Tank CC'd you /the target and the ranged secured either the first half of the burst or second half.

Either that or the healer was put behind.

Point 3: You are correct, yet the mode is balanced around a large amount of coordination from the team. For chat-less solo queue this is quite disastrous, and has led to a mix of inability to understand design/balance direction, and an inability for anyone to truly discern the exact full level of strength of any job. We're lucky if people try to coordinate as is. We can definitely say what seems powerful in the current environment, but it doesn't feel like the developers agree with us.

point 4: As a Samurai main, The DPS tells of my fellow melee make a big difference. It tells me when exactly to use Chiten to make them hurt themselves the most and mitigate the damage they do the most. That big red flower of Monks is a good time to attempt to shut them down before they even get started. I don't specifically speak of the wind up time, but of the animation before they attempt to do the most damage. (My experience with Nins were them readying triple mudra prior to using those skills)

point 5: You are correct.

I've never seen or thought of using Triple Mudra before prepping Bhava, and now I feel dumb. Good insight, thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PappaSmurff

Taking frontline seriously :ZLUUUUL:

---

If only there was rated/ranked FL as Frontline in general is closest thing to world pvp and its way more interesting than arenas, it has more depth as you can use military tactics in there and they work like a charm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krolja

4) DPS wind-up doesn't really matter at the moment in high level play. Mainly because at any given time you're working through a TBN+Benision/TBN+Adlo shields, so you have a whole 2 seconds worth of actual damage on the person before shields go back up. Just another symptom of class imbalance. Feeling punished for not having certain roles on your team feels great. Ninja burst doesn't happen during Triple Mudra anyway, it's usually Bhava+Assassinate into Triple Mudra.

---

This actually matters a whole lot, though probably not for the reason you're thinking. Right now, you need TBN to survive coordinated burst, because the damage of GCD + OGCD is so spiky that very little else matters in terms of throughput.

Scholar seemed imbalanced (and Dark Knight is imbalanced) because they're the best solutions to over-tuned burst. Any fix to healer throughput is going to have to come packaged with nerfs to the percentage of health that burst represents. Even with a pre-adlo, it's possible for a ranged or melee to die outright in the duration of a stun if burst is properly coordinated. That's the real reason "Healer Carry" is a thing - burst damage is so strong right now that even "good" healers have a hard time with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyani

snip.

---

You definitely don't need TBN to survive coordinated burst. Yes it helps a ton, like a huge ton, (3k Potency is about half of general melee burst) But it's definitely not required.

Full burst (usually about every minute depending on job, sometimes a bit longer ) can be strong, but it's not so strong you can't heal through it(ignoring damage stacks/culling stacks). Especially if the target uses safeguard, or kites a bit, or LoS's the opponent a bit. I guess if you were standing beside your healer, and the tank stunned you both before protect/divine/etc. goes off, yes you are probably going to die.

The only healer I could really see having trouble is Ast, because of the nature of ED mixed with their other issues.

The tank/Melee/Ranged have to coordinate the burst /CC for what you're talking about. And if you die there that's honestly well deserved. If healers could heal through even that, what would be the point?

Im nore sure if it makes sense for nin's bhavackara to have more potency than tornado kick and Forbiden Chakra and still be able to shoot off a raiton evey 3 - 4 seconds.
Melee dps aren't even balanced among themselves atm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Miasma

Im nore sure if it makes sense for nin's bhavackara to have more potency than tornado kick and Forbiden Chakra and still be able to shoot off a raiton evey 3 - 4 seconds.
Melee dps aren't even balanced among themselves atm.

---

You're forgetting the fact that Monk still has GL3 in PvP, +15% Damage , then there's Demolish +10%, Then there's Riddle of Fire /Earth(Each +10% and 60s CD) then +3%(trait)

and neither T-Kick nor F-Chakra have a CD particularly(only 10s, and it takes less time than that to rebuild GL3 meanwhile Fchakra is likely to be up after its 10s CD has expired, or around the same time.), While not recommended you could probably fire off T-kicks almost as rapidly as Raitons, maybe more often TP depending. Form shift can give you GL3 quite easily, and it only takes a a few combos + somersaults to actually have F-chakra back.

Yeah Bhava is stronger by 500 potency, but the 40s CD hinders it in comparison to either FChakra or Tkick. The Ninki resource is also used for both Mudra(CC or burst) and Bhava. so you're making more decisions than a Monk ever has to with it's split resource.

Ninja has +10%(SF), +10%(locked behind hide usage) and +3% DMG up trait.

Monk has quite a bit more damage than you might think it has. It still has honestly the strongest instant burst out of the melee even after the nerf. Prior to the nerf If you used Boot (RoF/+RoE)> True (FChakra+Tkick) > Snap(somersault) With Demo up on target + offense buff, It was pretty much a guaranteed or almost guaranteed kill on most targets, even with defense buff. 100-0 solo Whilst rebuilding a single stack of chakra/GL to prep for next burst shot.

The nerf weakened monk but its still really strong burst wise. It's just not gonna solo someone out the gate like before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Miasma

Im nore sure if it makes sense for nin's bhavackara to have more potency than tornado kick and Forbiden Chakra and still be able to shoot off a raiton evey 3 - 4 seconds.
Melee dps aren't even balanced among themselves atm.

---

Go play Ninja in Feast and make it into the top 100 if it's so op then the potency nerfs to Raiton and Bhava was a bigger nerf then gaining a stun.
And Monk is fine it has the best burst of the melees still.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snipski

Go play Ninja in Feast and make it into the top 100 if it's so op then the potency nerfs to Raiton and Bhava was a bigger nerf then gaining a stun.
And Monk is fine it has the best burst of the melees still.

---

I got to platnum and then got tf out. This season is horrible in my opnion, not worth the stress. (btw, i was in the top 100 untill i reached plat, my goal)
Any stun is deveststing if used correctly. Though good dps is defintely very important, what is more important is secured kills. Who cares if you're output a lot of dps if it isnt killing anything. However i don't like this general idea that when i talk about PvP i'm only talking about the feast. I take frontlines just as serious, hell i even take duels seriosuly.
(In duels ninja definitely has the edge) I still feel melee need a bit of love. As a counter argument, get some good people together and play a feast custom match with 2 ranged on on the opostion a few rounds. (Note i said good)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snipski

Go play Ninja in Feast and make it into the top 100 if it's so op then the potency nerfs to Raiton and Bhava was a bigger nerf then gaining a stun.
And Monk is fine it has the best burst of the melees still.

---

Also, not one did i said Nin was OP, infact the entire thread is my opnion in thag melee dps need a bit of love. Saying it was OP would counter the entire point.
I just feel like Monk could at least use a buff to it's demolish combo in terms of potency (note i haven't said anything about FC or TK, even if i feel like an entire 10% nerf was a bit to much to not give it at least some sort of cc or increase to other non burst related moves)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Miasma

snip

---

Frontline and Feast balance can't exactly go hand in hand, you can have no healers in FL.

Duels will never be balanced, and we were told this before we got them.

Monk just got nerfed, and Demo combo is for 10% damage up , and you can get a lot of damage in during the duration. Every melee could use CC , but Monk doesn't really need more damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

Frontline and Feast balance can't exactly go hand in hand, you can have no healers in FL.

Duels will never be balanced, and we were told this before we got them.

Monk just got nerfed, and Demo combo is for 10% damage up , and you can get a lot of damage in during the duration. Every melee could use CC , but Monk doesn't really need more damage.

---

I don't agree that they should be seperate. I feel like if nobody in an 8 person party wants to heal, they deserve what happens next. Win or lose. Thats like me deciding to try and street race with an almost empty gas tank.
And yes i know demolish gives a 10% dammage up. But when the mobe does literally 1/3 the damme a snap punch does. A lot of that time is spent trying to make up for the dammege you lost performing demolish. Take monk to the dummys at the wolves den and test it. You can do something simple even and just count the amount of combos it takes to deplete 2 hp bars.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Miasma

I don't agree that they should be seperate. I feel like if nobody in an 8 person party wants to heal, they deserve what happens next. Win or lose. Thats like me deciding to try and street race with an almost empty gas tank.
And yes i know demolish gives a 10% dammage up. But when the mobe does literally 1/3 the damme a snap punch does. A lot of that time is spent trying to make up for the dammege you lost performing demolish. Take monk to the dummys at the wolves den and test it. You can do something simple even and just count the amount of combos it takes to deplete 2 hp bars.

---

-i will admit that demolish is good right before you burst, even with the dot applied (testing all of this in grease 3) there is barely a purpose in demolish at all. It only increase the dammage YOU do by 10%. Dragoon is in a smiliar situation. Ninja, a bit better due to its dot combo only being 2 moves long. Thats why i would just want to see changes to hide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Holy_Miasma

snip.

---

I played Monk Gold > Plat.

Any good Monk will tell you the same things I am. I think you should play the mode and practice more before deciding this sort of thing.

Aside from Samurai, All melee have the same style. DoT = +10% damage and is only really used for that +10% damage. That is what you would call balanced. There's no reason to increase the potency on Demolish. Demolish isn't meant to be Snap Punch, and it never was.

Samurai's is separate from their DoT.

FL being separate from Feast in terms of gameplay would probably be the intention for the game mode in the first place. Feast is the competitive mode, Frontline is less so.

Also if you're using the Dummies to determine your damage that's probably not the best idea. Either look at your battle log and do math, or ask a friend to duel you to see how much damage you really do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cynric

You definitely don't need TBN to survive coordinated burst. Yes it helps a ton, like a huge ton, (3k Potency is about half of general melee burst) But it's definitely not required.

---

1) TBN isn't required to survive burst, but as you hinted, it significantly raises the skill floor for your team's healer when used well. DRK is strong right now in large part because it can win carry "weaker" healers by smoothing out burst damage.

2) Full burst damage is fine, IMO. For some classes, however (DRG and MNK come to mind), the damage is heavily frontloaded rather than over 3 or 4 GCDs. Great healers can handle it, while even above average healers will often struggle. This brings us back to 1), where DRK runs circles around the other two tanks defensively while offering solid damage.

In general, I think class balance among dps is quite good, with the exception of RDM (still too weak) - they just uniformly overpower weak healers while struggling to secure kills against good ones. Healer changes will need to come, but the ratio of burst vs sustain needs to change alongside them. Regen is OP as hell right now, and i'm surprised it didn't eat a nerf at the same time Broil did - Regen's combination of efficiency and throughput is completely off the charts compared to any other heal.

Healers shouldn't be able to heal through everything, but even around the middle of the pack, healers struggle to heal through anything, and the strength of 1 GCD+1 OGCD bust has a lot to do with it.