Just Realized - Are jobs bringing 2 hours back?

Maybe this was talked about before but looking back over the job's ability list I realized some of the abilities are similiar to the XI 2hours.

WHM get benediction, MNK get 100 fists, PLD get invincible, WAR has the stun all/remove sleep from all, the DRG breath attack, BLM get convert, etc

To start with, Convert as a 2-hour would be terrible.
Taking the old Rebirth as an example, I'd say the longest they will make any recast is 30 minutes, maybe 10 minutes.

I agree, 2hours are dated. Bring them back as 30minute abilities.

Yoshida did mention he was in favor of a '2 hour' type system, but nothing was set in stone or in what regards it would exist. It would be nice jobs do get 2 hour reintroductions since it's just yet another tool to play with for your job depending on effects (for example benediction after a nasty Aerial Blast/Whatever Garuda's marked move will be which will help in MP conservation.)

It probably won't be "2 hour cooldown" given how people complained about it in the topic, e.g "No skill should have a long cooldown timer" but we do know they're at least thinking about bringing back the concept of a desperation skill.

well I didn't think it would be exactly the same as XI with 2h cooldown, but yes the desperation attacks seem to be in the job system is what I'm saying

I sure hope not as it's terrible game design. Remember how in FFXI you'd rely almost entirely on having your 2h abilities off cooldown for tough fights and if you failed, you immediately disbanded? Yeah, I do too. Giving players incredible power spikes on long cooldowns makes content impossible to balance and the end result will always be that the fight is either nearly impossible without them or trivially easy with them.

There are some job abilities in the dats at the moment that are 900 seconds, but who knows if they'll stay that way. Given the current battles, that's only two uses maximum per fight. The "2-hour" concept is fine but the actual two hour recast is stupid, this should be okay.

job abilities has been dat-mined, the longest of them was hundred fist with 15 min recast. If i recall right

the battle director several months ago said he liked them and thought they brought a level of stratagem to the game. So more than like some kind of ability in said vein will appear.

2 hours would be such a terrible idea. I agree that they should be roughly 15 minutes at most. Love if it convert was more like 5 minutes or so.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

2 hours would be such a terrible idea. I agree that they should be roughly 15 minutes at most. Love if it convert was more like 5 minutes or so.

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Convert wasn't more then 10mins in FF11 iirc, hope to god they don't make it 10mins or longer in FF14 ><

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Originally Posted by SniperRifle

Convert wasn't more then 10mins in FF11 iirc, hope to god they don't make it 10mins or longer in FF14 ><

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It would break my black mages heart, the only reason i say 5 minutes is because i'm looking at thsi from a solo standpoint but i see 10 minutes working also.

from 2 hour to 1 hour: "Invincible" (or "awakening" full TP/HP/MP cured)for all classes/ jobs = "Desperation". First I believe you should complete a story line quest to unlock this and upgrade it. 2 hours, no thanks. more quest, story, content, yes please!

I personally would love 2hrs.

30 minutes would be best since you'd get to use them once per raid. Maybe twice for dungeons. Wouldn't complain at once per hour either.

Here's a vote for proper 2-hour "2 Hours". Perhaps this game's faster pace would warrant their becoming 1-Hour skills instead... But 10 Minutes? Seriously??

I'm not talking about convert, which wasn't a 2 Hour in XI, of course. Rather things that would make sense within the specifics of this game's mechanics.

For the rest of my reasoning, I refer you to this other thread

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

Here's a vote for proper 2-hour "2 Hours". Perhaps this game's faster pace would warrant their becoming 1-Hour skills instead... But 10 Minutes? Seriously??

I'm not talking about convert, which wasn't a 2 Hour in XI, of course. Rather things that would make sense within the specifics of this game's mechanics.

For the rest of my reasoning, I refer you to this other thread

R

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I agree with this guy. I'm all for an emergency trump card move, but when it's something as powerful as YOU CANT DIE FOR 30 SECONDS (Invincible) or MAX HEAL ALL PT MEMBERS AND REMOVE STATUS EFFECTS (Benediction), you best be sure it's gonna be on at least an hour cooldown. 15 Minutes, really? You guys need to think about what you're saying.

I have to say that I agree with the 1 hour cool-down timer as well. For the abilities to be as powerful as we think they'll be, it may be in our best interests to have at least a 1 hour cool-down on them. Being as though the players are not interested in having 2 hour cool-downs, but want the awesome benefits of the ability as opposed to the devs wanting players to use more strategy with the ability (why they would ultimately want 2 hour cool-downs) as well as the player getting the benefits, compromise on both sides of the fence, to me, says get the awesome abilities with all their potency in-tact and use proper strategy to deal with the hour long cool-down on it.

Seems like a pretty good idea to me. Definitely am not interested in a 15 minute cool-down, the abilities could lose some of their "oomph" if that was the case.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

I agree with this guy. I'm all for an emergency trump card move, but when it's something as powerful as YOU CANT DIE FOR 30 SECONDS (Invincible) or MAX HEAL ALL PT MEMBERS AND REMOVE STATUS EFFECTS (Benediction), you best be sure it's gonna be on at least an hour cooldown. 15 Minutes, really? You guys need to think about what you're saying.

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15 Minutes = one use per Primal fight, 4 uses per dungeon (let's be realistic here tho, it's still 1 use per boss at best). It fits nicely into the way our current content works and don't create situations where people will only do content with these skills on cooldown and instantly give up if they fail . 15-30 minutes cooldowns work fine with the way XIV is currently set up, imo

2 hour is a name that was given to abilities in FF11 because they recharged every 2 hours, i think its fair to say we might get powerful moves that would be on par with those 2 hours in FF11 that have significantly shorter cool downs. Personally I would like to see the timer set to somewhere about 30mins so that it can be used once per instance.

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

15 Minutes = one use per Primal fight, 4 uses per dungeon (let's be realistic here tho, it's still 1 use per boss at best). It fits nicely into the way our current content works and don't create situations where people will only do content with these skills on cooldown and instantly give up if they fail . 15-30 minutes cooldowns work fine with the way XIV is currently set up, imo

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15 minutes is two uses per primal fight. Let's assume here that PLD "2 hour" generates mass enmity and DD's deals insane damage. Bam you just abused low CDs on your absolute strongest move to get a ridiculous early advantage AND have it ready halfway through the fight. 4 uses per dungeon? HOW CAN YOU LOSE? Let's just take the DDs with the strongest 2 hours and spam those.

Don't think about the way FFXIV is currently set up. Think about the future.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Let's assume here that PLD "2 hour" generates mass enmity and DD's deals insane damage.

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Here's the catch, we're assuming things at this point. Yes, if the skills are incredibly powerful, their cooldown and / or costs should be increased accordingly, I agree with that.

However, I think it's still a bit early to judge their power and people are sorta using FFXI logic to think that our current "2-hours" will be as powerful as XI two hours and are worried that it might be too overpowered on lower cooldown.

Can we at least wait and see if our job skills are really unbalanced for their cooldown before asking for higher timers or anything of the sort?

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Here's the catch, we're assuming things at this point. Yes, if the skills are incredibly powerful, their cooldown and / or costs should be increased accordingly, I agree with that.

However, I think it's still a bit early to judge their power and people are sorta using FFXI logic to think that our current "2-hours" will be as powerful as XI two hours and are worried that it might be too overpowered on lower cooldown.

Can we at least wait and see if our job skills are really unbalanced for their cooldown before asking for higher timers or anything of the sort?

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Not much else we can really do. I'm simply saying that if they're truly an emergency desperation move like FFXI 2 hours were, 15 or even 30 minutes is just way too low. A less dramatic, but powerful move on 15 minutes? Sure why not.

Doesn't Invincible wear off if you move? It says that on the ability list from a few months back. That's a noticeable caveat especially if it counts knockback too, and it only blocks melee attacks. It doesn't say anything about adding a lot of enmity either, like it does with other abilities. Benediction doesn't restore status, and recovering all HP adds a crazy amount of hate if you aren't careful and are in a situation where you do need to use it. You are going to need a WHM for any difficult fights so I don't think that's an issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Estellios

Doesn't Invincible wear off if you move? It says that on the ability list from a few months back. That's a noticeable caveat especially if it counts knockback too, and it only blocks melee attacks. It doesn't say anything about adding a lot of enmity either, like it does with other abilities. Benediction doesn't restore status, and recovering all HP adds a crazy amount of hate if you aren't careful and are in a situation where you do need to use it. You are going to need a WHM for any difficult fights so I don't think that's an issue at all.

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This is the astute post I was looking for. Just because they sound somewhat like the 2hr skills from FFXI, and even if they end up sharing the same names, they will not necessarily be 100% the same. In fact it's more plausible to say they won't be the same in effect simply because these are 2 different games. Thus, it would be no surprise to see shorter cooldowns.

I'm sure the devs have balance in mind when designing them, and if anything ends up out off balance they will adjust.

PS: Anyone have a link to the Job skill dat mines?

yeah, they will put it in 100% ... but i think as a 20 mins CD max.. as almost every mmo most powerfull spell/abilities do.

I don't agree with the once-per-instance-run timer. That is like playing poker with 6 jokers per pack. To that request I would answer: "Learn how to play; die many times and progress." For the rest of the reasoning go to this thread.

R

Maybe keep the 2 hour recast, but have it reset to 0 in the event of the players death? That way it could only be used once per fight, and the content could still be designed around the players having these abilities, because it would be available after each wipe.

Yoshi-p said he want to add 2hour but to make it casual he said he want to do something like 1hour but it may be 30min i still think it could be at least 1hour seeing how they releasing two dungeon and could be 60min which should take at least 15-45mins to do you can use up your 1hour every fight.

they said that they would bring something like that once the battle system was done, so maybe 1.25 :D

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Originally Posted by Demacia

15 minutes is two uses per primal fight. Let's assume here that PLD "2 hour" generates mass enmity and DD's deals insane damage. Bam you just abused low CDs on your absolute strongest move to get a ridiculous early advantage AND have it ready halfway through the fight. 4 uses per dungeon? HOW CAN YOU LOSE? Let's just take the DDs with the strongest 2 hours and spam those.

Don't think about the way FFXIV is currently set up. Think about the future.

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Encounter difficulty is a function of both player strength and enemy strength. You can't assume that simply because players have access to ability X, all PVE encounters must be easy. What if Ifrit had an ability that he uses twice per fight that is guaranteed to one-shot the tank unless he has Invincible on? What if he also regularly wiped his hate list? Suddenly the FFXI Invincible on a 15 min cooldown doesn't sound that backbreaking, now does it?

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Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Here's the catch, we're assuming things at this point. Yes, if the skills are incredibly powerful, their cooldown and / or costs should be increased accordingly, I agree with that.

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I think you're looking at this from an irrelevant perspective. It doesn't really matter how strong they are in relation to their cooldowns. Long cooldowns on useful abilities are always detrimental to game balance simply because they create very infrequent spikes of player power. The encounter designers have to then decide if they want to balance the encounter around people having the cooldowns ready or not. It should be obvious why this is bad. Additionally, PVP content is coming and people aren't going to like fights always being decided by who has more super abilities ready.

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Originally Posted by SnickleWhiskers

2 hours would be such a terrible idea. I agree that they should be roughly 15 minutes at most. Love if it convert was more like 5 minutes or so.

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i think convert shuold be 1 min or 90 sec beings that con already has a nice ability get get mp back.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I don't agree with the once-per-instance-run timer. That is like playing poker with 6 jokers per pack. To that request I would answer: "Learn how to play; die many times and progress." For the rest of the reasoning go to this thread.

R

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Except this is more like people (incluiding you) thinking Solitaire will abide to the same rules as poker just because the cards used are mostly the same.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

i think convert shuold be 1 min or 90 sec beings that con already has a nice ability get get mp back.

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I agree. Considering current MP costs, Max MP values, regen rate as well as tools available to THM to regain MP - I honestly expect Convert to have a CD no longer than 120s. That being said, it depends greatly on the potency of the MP regen effect the BRDs will be dishing out. If the refresh effect is very potent, then I could understand a higher Convert CD as it would become more of a clutch-ability. If the refresh effect is not amazing, then a lower Convert CD is to be expected.

I would be fine in both scenarios, however I sincerely hope they keep that balance in mind. Considering the obvious party-focus of the design on Jobs, I expect it to be the former case with a considerably high CD on Convert. Probably something like 5-10 minutes.

It was a 2hr to indicate that it was a last chance effort, 2hr to try not to die(or in nin's case, 2hr and die). It wasn't meant to be used on a regular basis, as they were generally very over-powered. Look at smn and astral flow. that ability was widely abused and was the difference between a fight being easy and a fight being difficult. tough bcnm/ksnm? hell bring 2 smn, it will be easy. I'm ok with 2hr.

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Originally Posted by Frein

I think you're looking at this from an irrelevant perspective. It doesn't really matter how strong they are in relation to their cooldowns. Long cooldowns on useful abilities are always detrimental to game balance simply because they create very infrequent spikes of player power. The encounter designers have to then decide if they want to balance the encounter around people having the cooldowns ready or not. It should be obvious why this is bad. Additionally, PVP content is coming and people aren't going to like fights always being decided by who has more super abilities ready.

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I completely agree with you. However, if they ever implement very powerful abilties, there has to be some kind of limit on how and when said ability can be used. Long cooldowns are one way, Limit Break-like is other, requiring a quest to unlock a single use before being able to do it again is other, etc, etc.

Just mentioned that because most people complaining about these skills are, in fact, assuming we're gonna have abilities equivalent to the XI 2-hour abilities in both power, effectiveness, strategic importance and overal I-win-buttonness but on a much lower cooldown, which would indeed be very unbalanced unless they completely tune encounters around them.

The point is, we do not know if that's gonna the case. It sure could be and I will be against that if it is, but QQing about the timer without the proper knowledge of how they work is simply "wrong"

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Originally Posted by nasomi

It was a 2hr to indicate that it was a last chance effort, 2hr to try not to die(or in nin's case, 2hr and die). It wasn't meant to be used on a regular basis, as they were generally very over-powered. Look at smn and astral flow. that ability was widely abused and was the difference between a fight being easy and a fight being difficult. tough bcnm/ksnm? hell bring 2 smn, it will be easy. I'm ok with 2hr.

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I'm completely against something like that. Any skill that trivializes otherwise challenging and engaging content is a big no in my book. I'd rather have relatively weaker skills coupled with relatively lower cooldowns. A skill with a 2hr cooldown is just ridiculous.

Most people never used their 2hrs except in BC or other big fights - I'd rather have abilities that are slightly toned down from the power of the old 2hrs, but have a ~30min cooldown and are more practical for normal play.

Although, if the Primal summoning happens the way Yoshi has hinted at, it will be the ultimate "2hr" (more like 2 week) ability for this game.