4.1 Hype and Speculation

I'm sure everyone's favorite Moose would do a thread like this eventually, but I want to start the discussion now.

So 4.1 is comming early october with enough content to make even the most hardcore wow fan envious. In terms of story we gonna get more Hildy story, lots of lore for the Ivalice raid, kojin beast tribe quests and of course the MSQ.

And we have the title. The Legend Returns.

So who is the legend? Papalymo? Louisouix? Gaius? Nael? Lahabrea? Hildebrand? The real Yda? Minfilia? A viera?

Link please, if there is one.

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Originally Posted by Kyran-Varlsen

Link please, if there is one.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...63#post4389763

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

Honestly, I'm more hype for the systems improvements than anything else. I mean Shinryu EX is really cool and facing Ultimate Coil bosses is just rad. But!

- /tell and friending across worlds!
- pre-made alliances in PF!
- custom PvP matches!

SE's devs are working hard on a lot of "boring" stuff and that gets me all kinds of excited. Poor guys are probably cursing the 1.0 infrastructure every step of the way too.

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Same here. Lots of cool new stuff. But this IS the lore forum so I'll leave non lore stuff for the general discussion forum.

"The Legend Returns" is probably referring to Ramza. It's stated that the adaptation of Ivalice was done by introducing an Arthurian legend to Dalmasca / Rabanastre; one can only assume this cast Ramza as Arthur. This remains to be seen, but that's what I'm going with for now. Past that I'm not keen on speculating about it, since I know the outline of the Ivalice games and some of its finer myth points but would rather see Hydaelyn be its own standalone world. (Is Sephiroth gonna be a Garlean myth too? How about Ultimecia? Kuja? Yu Yevon? /sarcasm)

Kojin beast tribe quests make me happy. Turtle men. Now if only they were teenage ninjas... the mutant part need not apply.

Hildibrand is always a good time.

Patiently waiting for into on the MSQ.

My predictions:

- We'll meet the characters mentioned in the short story that took place in Limsa.
- The patch will mostly revolve around affairs in Gyr Abania, dealing with the fallout of the 4.0 MSQ's.
- We'll likely get some major lore bombs about the mysterious ruins below the salt lochs.
- Elidibus' face will be revealed to us.
- Potential use of the Garlean Consulate to engage on civil terms with the Emperor or some other major figure aligned with Garlemald. (This may happen later on in the expansion, though.)
- Return to Ivalice will be very nuanced, doing the games it is based off of justice in the process. No doubt there will be an element of tragedy to it all.
- Flavour text for key NPC's will be updated, particularly Hien, Hancock, Magnai, Sadu and so on even if they're not a part of the MSQ's this time around. We may see them briefly if there's a jump back to the Far East.
- The Doman Enclave and Rhalgr's Reach will both be updated physically.
- Laurentius and Yuyuhase (?) may show up. Chaos may ensue if they're thrown into the same prison as Fordola.

The character from the Limsa story? Well consider they were Alisaie, Y'shtola and Lyse, yes I am pretty sure we will meet them.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

The character from the Limsa story? Well consider they were Alisaie, Y'shtola and Lyse, yes I am pretty sure we will meet them.

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Lyse mentioned an Ala Mhigan who is helping her with political issues and Alpinaud supposedly has a 'new friend'.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

"The Legend Returns" is probably referring to Ramza. It's stated that the adaptation of Ivalice was done by introducing an Arthurian legend to Dalmasca / Rabanastre; one can only assume this cast Ramza as Arthur.

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Like Theodric said — the "legend" with regard to the Ivalice myth — is likely to be more nuanced than that. The Garleans apparently remember it as the story of a peasant who became a hero in a time of chaos. So, to them, Delita is quite possibly the legend, while the truth about Ramza was lost in time.

Depending on how much the raid arc traces the outlines of the FF-Tactics, it may well be the case we're going to Rabanastre to uncover the truth.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

"The Legend Returns" is probably referring to Ramza. It's stated that the adaptation of Ivalice was done by introducing an Arthurian legend to Dalmasca / Rabanastre; one can only assume this cast Ramza as Arthur. This remains to be seen, but that's what I'm going with for now.

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Just a little nitpick but FF Tactics's storyline was actually loosely based on real-world history - viz Ivalice's 50 Year War and the War of the Lions being actually clearly taken from the Hundred Years' War and the War of the Roses of English history.. only with magic and demon summoning. ;)

In the context of FFXIV the 'Return to Ivalice' raid is going to be actually based on an "old Garlean legend", emphasis on legend, so to me that means we're going to end up with something like the Minstrel's Ballad on a raid scale, in other words, someone will tell the story of it to the player's character and their imagination does the rest (hence we wouldn't actually be going to Ivalice in reality, merely imagining it).

It would easily fit within the lore without any changes and still satisfy the "Ivalice and Hydaelyn are separate worlds" rule Yoshi has set in the past. Either way, we'll find out soon enough. :)

FFT's framing device itself also works in this case since the original game is just Aralzam Durai reading from his ancestor's book describing the events of the War of the Lions, and just how much Durai's account differs from official history. I would like if there were some similarities (a combination of echo visions and minstrel's ballad-esque scenarios to help us find the truth behind the legend) to FFT but, really, I just wanna see what Matsuno does with it.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

The Legend Returns. <...> So who is the legend? <...> Gaius?

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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIv_2jbXgAUu5WI.jpg

In all seriousness it's probably (at least primarily) about Ivalice. There's just something about the world of Tactics and XII, though. I'm not sure what it is. It's something about the way it's not the "traditional" Final Fantasy formula but ... harmonizes with it? I guess? ... and manages to pass with flying colors. I can't wait to see Matsuno can can paint on Hydaelyn's canvas (obligatory Gaius jokes aside).

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Lyse mentioned an Ala Mhigan who is helping her with political issues and Alpinaud supposedly has a 'new friend'.

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I'm curious about who's been helping Lyse, but (assuming we're talking about the Tale) Alphinaud's friend was implied to still be Estinien.
Wouldn't it be terrible if the guy crushin' on Lyse and giving her historical documents was just unmasked Elidibus?

Did...did I get the twins mixed up? Oops!

>_>

<_<

As for Gaius, though...I guess he's old and accomplished enough to classify as a legend? So there may yet be hope! :p

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Originally Posted by Cilia

(Is Sephiroth gonna be a Garlean myth too? How about Ultimecia? Kuja? Yu Yevon? /sarcasm)

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Sarcasm I know, but I think the answer is probably yes. After all, we've been told the Triple Triad cards of the Heroes are based on myth, and we even see it referenced in the Wind-Up X-minions. The ship has sailed, this is what it is now.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Like Theodric said — the "legend" with regard to the Ivalice myth — is likely to be more nuanced than that. The Garleans apparently remember it as the story of a peasant who became a hero in a time of chaos. So, to them, Delita is quite possibly the legend, while the truth about Ramza was lost in time.

Depending on how much the raid arc traces the outlines of the FF-Tactics, it may well be the case we're going to Rabanastre to uncover the truth.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Just a little nitpick but FF Tactics's storyline was actually loosely based on real-world history - viz Ivalice's 50 Year War and the War of the Lions being actually clearly taken from the Hundred Years' War and the War of the Roses of English history.. only with magic and demon summoning. ;)

In the context of FFXIV the 'Return to Ivalice' raid is going to be actually based on an "old Garlean legend", emphasis on legend, so to me that means we're going to end up with something like the Minstrel's Ballad on a raid scale, in other words, someone will tell the story of it to the player's character and their imagination does the rest (hence we wouldn't actually be going to Ivalice in reality, merely imagining it).

It would easily fit within the lore without any changes and still satisfy the "Ivalice and Hydaelyn are separate worlds" rule Yoshi has set in the past. Either way, we'll find out soon enough. :)

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Yeah, no... you guys are right. "The Legend," if referring to any one person, is probably Delita, though history probably conflated him with Ramza. If there's any truth to the legend at all. I wouldn't quite say it's just an epic-scale Minstrel reimagining... yet. We do know that Dalmasca exists on Hydaelyn, so I'll be quite surprised if we don't actually go there. (Thought it was in Ilsabard, since the Garleans were said to have conquered Dalmasca before going after Othard... but I digress.)

Sunken City though! I love exploring sunken cities. It just feels like there's so much left behind...

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Did...did I get the twins mixed up? Oops!

>_>

<_<

As for Gaius, though...I guess he's old and accomplished enough to classify as a legend? So there may yet be hope! :p

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Well we never saw the corpse, did we? FFXIV is very obvious about character deaths. For Papalymo they went out of their way to clarify that he is dead and his aether was consumed (Iknow I stil llisted him as a possibility, but mostly as a joke).

By the way, did anyone translate the japanese title yet? It might be sort of different.

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Originally Posted by Rocl

Sarcasm I know, but I think the answer is probably yes. After all, we've been told the Triple Triad cards of the Heroes are based on myth, and we even see it referenced in the Wind-Up X-minions. The ship has sailed, this is what it is now.

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If they want to do it that way it's fine, my main point of contention with this is that it's another Garlean legend on the heels of Exdeath. Couldn't it have been, like... an Othardian legend, or something? Since Dalmasca is apparently in Othard?

Ultimately my issue with Ivalice being so heavily referenced (and now practically transplanted in) is that it shows blatant favoritism on the part of the developers. It feels like I'm being forced to play a game I didn't (and still don't) want to in order to enjoy the game I do. Yes, yes, I'm not actually being forced to... I know, but it still feels that way.)

Guess I'll just weather it for now and start a campaign to fight Sephiroth for real, not his mock-up Nael van Darnus. (/sarcasm, kinda.)

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I guess he's old and accomplished enough to classify as a legend?

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I joke that his reputation was a legend. His routing of the Resistance takedown of Darnus (with WOL doing the lifting) showed a brutal, tactical man, but 2.X suggested that his invasion was successful because of the Ivy, undermined by the Ivy and Varis (with WOL doing the lifting), and that the majority of his power was a gift from the Ascians who knew that he was desperate to look good after Silvertear and Meteor with Solus at death's door.

It reflects poorly on him; makes it seem like "The Mission" he claimed to be all about was, when push came to shove, an negotiable front for building his own legacy. It calls into question whether he really took down Darnus for the good of the Empire at all. It makes me wonder how this guy sacked so many cities and dominated the Imperial court for so long. Maybe he left his mojo on the Agrius. Is being more bark than bite an intentional revelation? It'd be ironic considering that he kept coming off as stable and reasonable standing next to lunatics and sociopaths.

And so I joke that he was pretty much just a legend unless he wants to come set the record straight. (Increasingly as I get ribbed about it, lol.)

But if there's one place to avoid lighting the Baelsar Signal, it's Return to Ivalice. "The Legend Returns" feels a bit like "Gears of Change", which titled the MSQ as per usual but winked at Alexander. A celebrated content creator stopping by to paint Ivalice as a lost King Arthur-like mythology onto XIV should be good times, and some cynical Lalafell's running gag can wait, lol.

But if the patch title ties into the MSQ, too...what legend, there? Will Ivalice send tendrils into the MSQ? Or ... [itches arm nervously]

you all know that in truth it's referring to hildibrand aka the gentleman of light :D

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Originally Posted by Remedi

you all know that in truth it's referring to hildibrand aka the gentleman of light :D

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Nay, it's Godbert, the true final boss when this game reaches 10.55.

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Nay, it's Godbert, the true final boss when this game reaches 10.55.

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If Godbert is the true final boss, then what in the name of the Twelve is Julyan? The woman could be a post-game dungeon herself. A thousand thousand Warmechs would be preferable.

The Zodiac Braves are already mentioned during the ARR relic quest, and that's a prominent myth in FFT. I doubt the 24 man return to ivalice has any bearing on the name of this patch. Crystal Tower and Void Ark were sidequesys that had little to no impact or intersection with the MAW. So, i suspect the same. This "Legend" can either refer to a person or a myth. I feel like it refers to the 4 Shinjin since they said the next primals would be a set like warring triad. Based on the art on the world map, the legend might refer to the divine beasts: Genbu, Seiryu, Suzaku, and Byakko awakening.

Seriously guys, we could have Giaus's decapitated head as quest item and people would still be arguing he was still alive and going to come back...

The patch does seem very Ivalice focused. Makes me wonder if they are purposely downplaying the MSQ not to give anything away or if they are just holding back stuff. We still have seen nothing on Eureka either and that seems almost necessary if we are going to have the new relic starting up in 4.15.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Seriously guys, we could have Giaus's decapitated head as quest item and people would still be arguing he was still alive and going to come back...

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Wow, we never even saw what he looked like. So what if the head was wearing his helmet? He could have put anyone's head in that helmet.
You're gonna feel so silly when he comes back for it.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Seriously guys, we could have Giaus's decapitated head as quest item and people would still be arguing he was still alive and going to come back...

The patch does seem very Ivalice focused. Makes me wonder if they are purposely downplaying the MSQ not to give anything away or if they are just holding back stuff. We still have seen nothing on Eureka either and that seems almost necessary if we are going to have the new relic starting up in 4.15.

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Do we really need severed heads as proof of death still? I find the whole bit distasteful, and we didn't exactly have time to kill him ourselves or decapitate him as proof... plus killing him wasn't really necessary at that point...

I'd wager the focus on the Ivalice bits is intense because the developers are excited for it as well. With this it's... pretty clear they're playing favorites, which is no small part of why I'm personally opposed to such heavy references. They did it with the Crystal Tower too... and even though I played and liked III it was still just a bit intrusive for my taste, even if it was made to work in the context of XIV.

The lack of info on Eureka is, I'd bet, because it's not finished yet and still further off. 4.1 itself is still a month plus away; 4.15 probably 1.5+, so I'll be patient and wait. Still, the lack of any information at all is a bit worrying... I'm going to chalk it up to Ivalice hype leaving most players uninterested. (Eureka was one of my favorite areas in III, so hopefully they do it the same justice they're apparently doing Ivalice.)

Well we need some irrefutable proof and hauling back the whole body would be a lot of work. That said, considering we are stuffing giant rhino monsters into sacks and hauling them around, I supposed carrying one garlean corpse wouldn't be that much work.

There's plenty of original content unique to FFXIV, so I'm not too worried. As for 'playing favourites', I don't think that's necessarily the case at all - FFXIV has shared themes with Ivalice and has been inspired by it as far back as 1.0 by design. We're seeing a lot of fanservice and references but that's applicable to multiple FF titles and is a large part of the game's appeal at this point. It's been done pretty tastefully, too. Heck, they made a direct reference to Ex-Death work without compromising either the title he's from or FFXIV itself.

As for taking the heads of enemies for proof of slaying them...I think if that sort of thing ended up happening then it'd add a lot of weight to the idea that the Warrior of Light is a 'savage'. Furthermore, it isn't exactly respectful to one's enemies, especially someone such as Gaius who had redeeming qualities and the respect of his own men. Let's not pretend as if the Scions would not be frothing at the maw if someone killed Lyse or the equivalent and then took her head as a trophy and/or proof of the deed.

As far as the MSQ is concerned, though, it's likely they're not giving anything away. Then again, 3.1 was very short where the MSQ's were concerned so hopefully we get something of a decent length for 4.1 to tide us over.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Well we need some irrefutable proof and hauling back the whole body would be a lot of work. That said, considering we are stuffing giant rhino monsters into sacks and hauling them around, I supposed carrying one garlean corpse wouldn't be that much work.

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To be fair, this is an actual historical thing, although as mentioned, the logistics of carrying around the severed heads of your enemies meant it quickly turned into taking smaller trophies, like ears, noses, or scalps. In some cases, like in ancient Japan, this was because the warriors needed proof of the kill, or they wouldn't get paid.

This has lasting repercussions on international relations even today: cf Mimizuka.

As per usual, it's one of those things where the faux-medieval setting of FFXIV means we have no idea whether to apply our own morals to it, or if it's just "one of those things", like Ul'dahns selling and being sold into indentured service, or Lominsans engaging in the "spice trade".

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Originally Posted by WhiteArchmage

Nay, it's Godbert, the true final boss when this game reaches 10.55.

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I disagree, we all know that rowena is the real villain and that godbert will save our asses when the time is right!

edit: maybe after the final fight we'll have a friendly spar with godbert

If the Triple Triad FF heroes are myths and Lightning came to Eorzea before the events of Lightning Returns (Shantotto and Iroha too) does that make them an exception to the myth? Has Koji or anyone on the lore team acknowledged these events not being canon and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

If the Triple Triad FF heroes are myths and Lightning came to Eorzea before the events of Lightning Returns (Shantotto and Iroha too) does that make them an exception to the myth? Has Koji or anyone on the lore team acknowledged these events not being canon and vice versa?

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As far as I'm aware, the crossover events are non-canon and Koji/Yoshida are sticking to XIV being its own multiverse separate from the greater FF multiverse.

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Originally Posted by Quor

If Godbert is the true final boss, then what in the name of the Twelve is Julyan? The woman could be a post-game dungeon herself. A thousand thousand Warmechs would be preferable.

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Godbert is the final boss of FFXIV.

Julyan, Tataru, and Rowena, will be Optional Boss fights that are so extremely difficult they make Godbert look like a level 2 Lady Bug outside Ul'dah by comparison. Like all good FF games, you have your final boss, and then your side bosses which are insanely more difficult.

I actually hope to see the Ivalice raids being framed as a story in the story, but come to life. Kind of like the Hundred-Acre Woods in Kingdom Hearts being a book that Sora magically enters. Except instead of Winnie the Pooh, we get R&D.

I don't think it's that far-fetched for Gaius to return. He 'died' off camera in 2.0. Ascians can possess people or whatever the proper term is. We first meet Elidibus in 2.1, right after Gaius disappeared. The Garlean emperor was shocked by the face of Elidibus in 4.0, suggesting it's a face he recognises. So... Eli possessed Gaius and teleported out of the praetorum?

What are your thoughts on where the new dungeon will be? the architechture reminds me of gyr abanian stuff and the drowened affix makes me think about the city in the lochs but I'm not asure

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Originally Posted by Remedi

What are your thoughts on where the new dungeon will be? the architechture reminds me of gyr abanian stuff and the drowened affix makes me think about the city in the lochs but I'm not asure

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The architecture is almost identical with the city beneath the lochs and the screenshots feature large white crystals, most certainly salt crystals. And the city has a large door that currently is unopened. Dont think theres much room for speculation on where it will be.

Edit:

It is interesting though, this kind of dome is not somethng i have seen on surface Ala Mhigan buildings, only seen one in the sunken salt lake and on most Allagan ruins, which makes sense as Ala Mhigo supposedly was built on the Allagan site that contained the Ultima weapon.

http://i.imgur.com/M3fhnz6.png

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

I don't think it's that far-fetched for Gaius to return. He 'died' off camera in 2.0. Ascians can possess people or whatever the proper term is. We first meet Elidibus in 2.1, right after Gaius disappeared. The Garlean emperor was shocked by the face of Elidibus in 4.0, suggesting it's a face he recognises. So... Eli possessed Gaius and teleported out of the praetorum?

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I'm in the boat too that says Elidibus possessed Gaius for some reason. Another clue that no one has brought up is the old interview where Koji said the Heart of Sabik would become important again at some point in the future. The last person to possess the Heart of Sabik was Gaius van Baelsar.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

The patch titles will offer hints into what is going to happen to Doma and Ala Mhigo in the 4.x series.

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Also looking at this translation from the live letter, I don't think the "legend" refers to the Ivalice raid at all.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

What are your thoughts on where the new dungeon will be? the architechture reminds me of gyr abanian stuff and the drowened affix makes me think about the city in the lochs but I'm not asure

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I'm of the mind that it's going to be a (mostly) underwater ruin in one of the Lochs. (Note: "loch" is just an Irish / Scottish word for lake.) Loch Seld is filled with ruins; one area even has the ice "flowers" that led us up into the Ala Mhigan Quarter, except these ones lead us to a sealed stone door. My current wager is that it's behind there. (Coordinates X: 24.5, Y: 21.1, Z: -2.7.)

Ye I think so too the architecture and the name, not to mention the white crystal as Enur said kinda gives it away as it beign in the lochs

Adventure Squadron Update? New Beast Tribe? Integration with FF12 Lore!?

I am so psyched :D

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Originally Posted by Yasuhiro

Has Koji or anyone on the lore team acknowledged these events not being canon and vice versa?

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Originally Posted by Daralii

As far as I'm aware, the crossover events are non-canon and Koji/Yoshida are sticking to XIV being its own multiverse separate from the greater FF multiverse.

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I like to use the word "pseudocanon" (as canon as one wants them to be). They break the "Hydaelyn is isolated, period." standard that Yoshida-san has stood by thus far, and thus they're probably not to be considered hard-canon deep-lore that helps you figure out the world and inform other story arcs. But does that mean we should just disregard them if we enjoyed them? Of course not! One can be called by a pseudonym and without denying that there's a deeper truth. It's important to remember which things are in those bubbles in the big picture, sure, but if you enjoy them and want your character to identify with them, that's your business.